You know what ? My little princess is perfect in every way (biased) but she could outdo many i' ve seen pics of for sale at the end of the day she is my pet and best friend !!!

 

Belgian Shepherds and Akitas were both originally recognised only as single breeds but have subsequently split.

What???
Do you have a source for this?

I'm having a hard time seeing how two breeds developed in entirely different continents could ever have been considered the same breed!

Edit, LOL NVM! I thought you were saying Belgian Shepherds and Akitas were once considered the same breed, but now I see you're saying Akitas split in to two separate breeds and Belgian Shepherds split in to Tervs etc.
Sheesh... should not post when sleep deprived!

Though I did not know there were two Akita breeds ?? Can someone clarify?

 

Though I did not know there were two Akita breeds ?? Can someone clarify?

There is the American Akita and the Japanese Akita Inu.

I can't help with regards to how, when or why they split though.

 

Without knowing anything about dog physiology.. I'm sure nature wouldn't produce a curved spine..it certainly doesn't look very healthy..

Do any wild animals have a curved spine?

 

There is the American Akita and the Japanese Akita Inu.

I can't help with regards to how, when or why they split though.

Off topic but The Japanese Inu is more in line with the original Akita used by Samurai to hunt wild game. The American Akita known for its broad face and bigger body was introduced when dog fighting was popular in Japan. It was mixed with Danes and St Bernards for the extra bulk as the original inu may not have been strong enough for the Japanese Tosa. A woman then saw one and took it to America and to cut a long story short it became the American Akita. The two different looks were still regarded as an Akita untill a KC..dont know which one decided to split the breed based on how different they look. Well that's basically what I understand it to be anyway.

Sam looks freakishly like Hachiko..the famous Akita known for his amazing loyalty.

 

Without knowing anything about dog physiology.. I'm sure nature wouldn't produce a curved spine..it certainly doesn't look very healthy..

Do any wild animals have a curved spine?

Many of the sighthounds come to mind as having a curved top line and none seem to be any worse for the wear.
And mother nature has certainly created huge variation among vertebrates, including many different types of curvatures.

The thing is, when looking at structure, it's not just ONE aspect of the dog's conformation that should matter, rather, how all the pieces fit together. Roached back + weak croup + cow hocks + exaggerated angulation + flat feet is not the same as a curved back with a well put together rear end.

You also have to look at the job the dog is built to do. A dog meant to run fast is going to be built much differently than a dog with a more multipurpose job.

 

There is the American Akita and the Japanese Akita Inu.

I can't help with regards to how, when or why they split though.

I did some digging and in the US, the AKC recognizes both as being types of the same breed. One single breed here, no split.

 

Many of the sighthounds come to mind as having a curved top line and none seem to be any worse for the wear.
And mother nature has certainly created huge variation among vertebrates, including many different types of curvatures.

The thing is, when looking at structure, it's not just ONE aspect of the dog's conformation that should matter, rather, how all the pieces fit together. Roached back + weak croup + cow hocks + exaggerated angulation + flat feet is not the same as a curved back with a well put together rear end.

You also have to look at the job the dog is built to do. A dog meant to run fast is going to be built much differently than a dog with a more multipurpose job.

I would see the GSD as multipurpose so why introduce the bent back? There's other dog for relentless speed such as the Belgian Malinois.

 

JFI - The situation re Akitas is complicated but serves well to illustrate the fact that a German Shepherd/Alsatian split is perfectly possible simply by reference to shape.

Some countries have split the breed into two breeds. They name them differently in different places but for simplicity here I'll call them American Akitas and Japanese Akitas. The Amnerican, Canadian and Australian Kennel Clubs say they are two 'types' of the same dog and only recognise one breed. All other nations, including the UK (and the European 'Governing Body' the FCI), say that they are different breeds.

The differences are down to size and markings - there is no genetic difference.

A similar situation is true of the Belgian Shepherd which can be considered as either 4 different types of one breed or 4 different breeds, depending on which national kennel club does the classifying.

The Alsatian Campaign argues that we have two very distinctive 'looks' of the same dog and that they should be separate breeds and that this is a paramount health issue because of the poor conformation of the 'Germanic' type of dog which is leading to major health issues.

To see what I'm talking about look here. It's an upsetting video but the dog shown has ancestry which includes the top German 'Sieger' and although this is an exaggerated case it is by no means unique.

 

You also have to look at the job the dog is built to do. A dog meant to run fast is going to be built much differently than a dog with a more multipurpose job.

The German Shepherd was meant to be a 'trotting' dog not a fast runner. One of the arguments put forward about the change of conformation was that it was to give the dog more 'drive'. All the veterinary evidence and opinion states this is (politely) balderdash! As a shepherd the dog was trained to trot up and down a fixed path keeping sheep in a particular area. Not to tear about.

 

I used a photo in the public domain. It doesn't matter that it's a puppy - it's a typical example of what the Bateson report called "A Banana back". The very thing that the KC want vets to look at in shows. Why? because there's lots of evidence that the only type of dog that exhibits the loose hocks that exemplify "half dog, half frog" are precisely that type of dog.

Really? This is an English dog that won its class. Terrible hocks, and it's an adult

Open GSD class at Otley Canine Society Judge Ann Barker (Rikov) | Facebook

And, don't try and dodge the issue of topline - you brought it up.

Get a ruler, put it on the back of the dog you have pictured and show me, once again, where that dog is straight. As anyone can see there's a curve from withers to bum. Be absolutely clear - the standard says straight not curved. Unfortunately, it's the same old, same old with Germanic supporters. They simply can't go with facts and just rely on hopelessly outdated opinions and bias. Why is that? Could it be anything to do with the very large amounts of money involved with Germanic style dogs? Or are they just habitual deniers?

The standard that you quoted does not call for a straight topline, only a straight back, which the the dog pictured does have. If the back "falls away" from the "high, long withers" - that means it slopes from the end of the withers, and then the croup slopes again from the end of the back.

Tell me how "falling away" = keeps level??

It's been said that this campaign has frightened the Germanic supporters. Which is quite funny because it's all about leaving them alone to do their own thing with their own dogs. I think it's because they are terrified at having their dirty washing finally exhibited in public for the whole dog world to see. I may be wrong. But, we shall see.

What dirty laundry? The fact that our dogs have excellent health test results to be allowed breed? That they have to prove themselves capable of working? And that they have to complete a 20km endurance test?
We hold Koerungs in the UK, and to show a dog over 2 years of age under WUSV rules it must be Breed Surveyed, which includes passing health test results, gunshot test, and measurements with a tape measure compared to the breed standard.
Out of the over 100 comments on the debate page I've not seen any fear, only irritation at the arrogance of Alsatianists. Over a year of preparation and only 9 likes on the FB page (up to 16 today I notice )? Says a lot.

JFI - The situation re Akitas is complicated but serves well to illustrate the fact that a German Shepherd/Alsatian split is perfectly possible simply by reference to shape.

And what about what happens when you get a German shaped dog out of 2 Alsatians? It happens. Does this mean that you couldn't then cross 2 working line dogs if they are different shapes? Working breeders might have something to say about that!

The Alsatian Campaign argues that we have two very distinctive 'looks' of the same dog and that they should be separate breeds and that this is a paramount health issue because of the poor conformation of the 'Germanic' type of dog which is leading to major health issues.

To see what I'm talking about look here. It's an upsetting video but the dog shown has ancestry which includes the top German 'Sieger' and although this is an exaggerated case it is by no means unique.

If you were in fact up to date with the German side of things you might have noticed all the disgusted remarks at this video. These are the kind of puppies that countries like Croatia are churning out. An SV judge has been heard saying that you shouldn't combine Zamp and Vegas for just this reason.

The German Shepherd was meant to be a 'trotting' dog not a fast runner. One of the arguments put forward about the change of conformation was that it was to give the dog more 'drive'. All the veterinary evidence and opinion states this is (politely) balderdash! As a shepherd the dog was trained to trot up and down a fixed path keeping sheep in a particular area. Not to tear about.

Her point was that they are a trotting dog. Have you seen the drive on the dogs at the German Sieger show? I can't find the results atm but it was a WGSL dog that won the national herding comp last year I think! Many WGSL dogs are working sheep daily in Europe.

 

Really? This is an English dog that won its class. Terrible hocks, and it's an adult

Lousy judge. Hocks were bad when it wasn't stacked properly. You couldn't see what they were doing on the move. OTOH search out a video of Elmo at Crufts and watch his hocks wobble. And he's supposedly the best of British. LMAO.

The standard that you quoted does not call for a straight topline, only a straight back, which the the dog pictured does have. If the back "falls away" from the "high, long withers" - that means it slopes from the end of the withers, and then the croup slopes again from the end of the back.

Tell me how "falling away" = keeps level??

Tell me what "level" has to do with anything? Which part of "straight" can't you understand? Read the following sentence "Back between withers and croup, straight, strongly developed, not too long." Where in that does it say "curved"? Where does it say "level"?

What dirty laundry? The fact that our dogs have excellent health test results to be allowed breed? That they have to prove themselves capable of working? And that they have to complete a 20km endurance test?
We hold Koerungs in the UK, and to show a dog over 2 years of age under WUSV rules it must be Breed Surveyed, which includes passing health test results, gunshot test, and measurements with a tape measure compared to the breed standard.
Out of the over 100 comments on the debate page I've not seen any fear, only irritation at the arrogance of Alsatianists. Over a year of preparation and only 9 likes on the FB page (up to 16 today I notice )? Says a lot.

What the WUSV says (or does) or what games you play with your dogs is completely and totally irrelevant. Lets be 100% clear - Schutzhund is a sport. No more, no less. It's available to many breeds of dog and is run by the FCI who took it over from the SV. Health? Yep, that's how come the poor little puppy in that video was bred from "healthy" parents. Once again you are in denial. Not ONE of your health tests addresses conformation. Which is exactly where the KC has a problem with GSDs.

And what about what happens when you get a German shaped dog out of 2 Alsatians? It happens. Does this mean that you couldn't then cross 2 working line dogs if they are different shapes? Working breeders might have something to say about that!

What happens if you get a dog that you don't think measures up to the standard? You don't breed from it! Simples.

If you were in fact up to date with the German side of things you might have noticed all the disgusted remarks at this video. These are the kind of puppies that countries like Croatia are churning out. An SV judge has been heard saying that you shouldn't combine Zamp and Vegas for just this reason.

Hmmm. If even the SV judges don't think you should breed from their top dog - what hope have you got?

Her point was that they are a trotting dog. Have you seen the drive on the dogs at the German Sieger show? I can't find the results atm but it was a WGSL dog that won the national herding comp last year I think! Many WGSL dogs are working sheep daily in Europe.

So, there are dogs working sheep! So what? Some of them work as guide dogs, some as sniffer dogs, some as 'helper dogs'. Exactly what, in those jobs, requires 'drive'? Define drive. Because it's a total loss to a dog that was developed to be a trotting dog. It doesn't need 'drive'.

 

Surely if the breed is separated then it will only encourage people to keep breeding and showing the "German" type, therefore maintaining the conformation problems seen in the GSD today?

 

Anyone else just think it's a case of children storming off in a huff because they're not getting their own way?

I've been looking at "old style" "alsatians" whatever they want to call themselves kennels. They seem to only hip score if they do any health testing. I even had an english type breeder tell me hip scoring was just a money making scheme from the kennel club. However bad looking some of the WGSL dogs are they're fully health tested .

Bear in mind I prefer the east european working lines I can't stand the exaggerated show dog look either but they're more ethical than most of the alsatian breeders.

 

i am all for healthy straight backed original breed that first arrived in uk as alsatians from germany via alsace. they didnt have sloping backs back then so why the sloping back gsds nowadays eh? my mate as a sloping aback shepherd and it as to be put down as it was so crippled and wobbly in his hind legs. so cruel to breed them that way.

my family have always had alsatians and i have often had them off the police as rejects due to lack of aggression. they were all healthy straight backed active alsatians and frisky lived the longest of them all to nearly 18 years of age. the rest of them lived up to 14 - 15 years. they all could jump over 6 ft fences no probabelm.

as for the colour, it don't bother me as long they're all alsatians and are healthy. i hate in breeding.

i don't like people abbrev to gsd rather than full name so why call such a grand looking breed by abbrevs than full name eh? alsatian is easier to say than a mouthful or in 3 letters like gsd. some people even say sheps and at first i think they said the dogs name then realise they mean abbrev for gsd.

in australian they have them australian cattle dogs but they call them blue or red heelers. 'cos saying acd in full is a mouthful!

 

see the link Home

i prefer the 1925 version of the alsatian. such a real fit active happy healthy dog

 

I must say I don't like the sloping curved backs shown in the pics on this thread. My ex has a gsd from Poland and her back is much straighter and then curves gently down towards the tail-I wish I had a pic of her standing up.That's what they should look like in my opinion.
Like this-if this works http://www.psy.elk.pl/zdjecia/dodane/16973_213_12265_owczarek-niemiecki.jpg

 

Belgian Shepherds were originally recognised only as single breeds but have subsequently split.

nope ...not true - from 1891 when the very first breed standard was written the BSD was always described as one breed with four varieties the only time when we were recognised as one breed with no varieties was back in the 90's when our own KC decided to amalgamate all four varieties - it was a complete disaster for the breed in the Uk as we could not import new dogs or take our bitches across to Europe to be mated as other countries were so outraged they effectively boycotted the new 'British' Belgian Shepherd Dog- our existing Uk gene pool was unsustainable and many breeders simply gave up and the BSD in the Uk is only now slowly recovering from that disaster.

I think the same shrinking isolated gene pool would be true of the British Alsation and for what ...so that you can have greater show ring success ? - the price is not worth paying !

..and as an aside to my eyes both GSD 'types aare a million miles away from how te breed looked in it's early days ( and presumably when it's breed standrad was first written )

Alsation type

GSD type

Original type

in fact my own breed looks more like the original GSD did

 

Lousy judge. Hocks were bad when it wasn't stacked properly. You couldn't see what they were doing on the move. OTOH search out a video of Elmo at Crufts and watch his hocks wobble. And he's supposedly the best of British. LMAO.

Excuses excuses, you can't say wobbly hocks are only in German dogs now.
Clutching at straws.
Best of British? The British Sieger show isn't limited to British dogs, just as the German Sieger show isn't, so I'd say the dog that made V4 at the BSZS 2012 could be classed as "better" than the one that made V50 at his last appearance in Germany.

Tell me what "level" has to do with anything? Which part of "straight" can't you understand? Read the following sentence "Back between withers and croup, straight, strongly developed, not too long." Where in that does it say "curved"? Where does it say "level"?

I'm sorry, perhaps I misunderstood because I thought it was plainly obvious that his back between withers and croup IS straight.

What the WUSV says (or does) or what games you play with your dogs is completely and totally irrelevant. Lets be 100% clear - Schutzhund is a sport. No more, no less. It's available to many breeds of dog and is run by the FCI who took it over from the SV. Health? Yep, that's how come the poor little puppy in that video was bred from "healthy" parents. Once again you are in denial. Not ONE of your health tests addresses conformation. Which is exactly where the KC has a problem with GSDs.

You're going to need to pick whether or not you want to listen to Max von Stephanitz, because he seemed to think SchH was rather important. Does it matter how it's trained? What matters is the end result.
The UK KC has nothing to do with dogs churned out in Croatia, I have NEVER seen a dog with hocks as bad as in that video. Unfortunately no type of dog is immune to idiots.

What happens if you get a dog that you don't think measures up to the standard? You don't breed from it! Simples.

So you're going to keep all the German shaped dogs that crop up to make sure they're not bred from? You know the KC can and do lift endorsements. Then you could end up with a small population of German shaped Alsatians.

Hmmm. If even the SV judges don't think you should breed from their top dog - what hope have you got?

That's right, you just twist my words. Are you stupid?

So, there are dogs working sheep! So what?

Woah, hang on. What do you mean so what? So - the international shaped GSD can and does work in its original purpose. Kind of defeats your line of thought that they're all cripples due to their conformation.

Some of them work as guide dogs, some as sniffer dogs, some as 'helper dogs'. Exactly what, in those jobs, requires 'drive'? Define drive. Because it's a total loss to a dog that was developed to be a trotting dog. It doesn't need 'drive'.

A trotting dog needs rear drive for efficient movement.

Surely if the breed is separated then it will only encourage people to keep breeding and showing the "German" type, therefore maintaining the conformation problems seen in the GSD today?

Have you read the thread at all, do you honestly still believe that the type of GSD shown (and worked!!) ALL OVER THE WORLD are cripples?

 

Gah, some of them slope down like frogs.
Can't say I've ever seen a sloped on IRL though, every one near me has straight backs.

It is not fair on the dog at all, IMO.

 

GSD show type

GSD show type

I would not buy above two GSDs due to them sloping slide + banana backs of theres. so cruel to make them that way

Original Alsatian working type:-

Above 1925 pic is how my Alsatians were/are

Nice looking dog and would be happy to buy one of them.

amended as i dunno how to save pics and upload on here myself.

 

I'm sorry, perhaps I misunderstood because I thought it was plainly obvious that his back between withers and croup IS straight.

Keep up the good work Shrap! :thumbsup: Perhaps If you say it often enough, the penny might just drop that "straight" does not mean "level" - a straight line can be at any angle.

Have you read the thread at all, do you honestly still believe that the type of GSD shown (and worked!!) ALL OVER THE WORLD are cripples?

I don't have your experience of the breed, but I just wanted to add that I read in the dog papers last week that, in the year since independent vet checks have been carried out at championship shows, no GSD has failed.

Now, being as Albertross says that owners of the English type GSDs are throwing their toys out of the pram because their type never win, then this must mean that the Germanic type have won and have all been deemed healthy by independent vets.

 

amended as i dunno how to save pics and upload on here myself.

Current working GSD (rated excellent, ZVV2,IPO3,SCHH/VPG1,ZPS1)

Current show GSD (2x VA1, SchH3)

 

To be OP honest it sounds like children fighting lol can't you just pull together as a group who have a common interest of the breed and do what's best for the breed not what's best for your pockets or for how many cc's you win. As a Shepard surely it is important that it herds? From your comments op you only seem to care about how the dog looks? surely splitting the breed in half you just reducing the gene pool and will just cause more issues.


I don't care how long a dog's name is it really doesn't bother me lol who care if it's 5 words long or a few letters

 

nope ...not true - from 1891 when the very first breed standard was written the BSD was always described as one breed with four varieties the only time when we were recognised as one breed with no varieties was back in the 90's when our own KC decided to amalgamate all four varieties - it was a complete disaster for the breed in the Uk as we could not import new dogs or take our bitches across to Europe to be mated as other countries were so outraged they effectively boycotted the new 'British' Belgian Shepherd Dog- our existing Uk gene pool was unsustainable and many breeders simply gave up and the BSD in the Uk is only now slowly recovering from that disaster.

I think the same shrinking isolated gene pool would be true of the British Alsation and for what ...so that you can have greater show ring success ? - the price is not worth paying !

..and as an aside to my eyes both GSD 'types aare a million miles away from how te breed looked in it's early days ( and presumably when it's breed standrad was first written )

Alsation type

GSD type

Original type

in fact my own breed looks more like the original GSD did

I would agree. Von Stepanitz's vision of a GSD is a far cry from what you see today. A malinois is far closer. Neither the British or Germanic types resemble them. Not seen many British ones, but have seen Elmo move. His back isn't straight, anyone who thinks otherwise should familiarise themselves with something straight edged like a ruler and have another look. Also seen the sickle hocked German dogs can't stand four square like any other dog but end up with wobbling hocks down to their confirmation. The British dogs are too long in the body and short in their legs. The first time I did my conformation and movement course with the KC and they explained the constructional requirements of an endurance trotter, much like a GSD, which Aldo requires a sharp turn of movement and burst of speed, it was quite clear how either type was constructionslly incapable of doing that. Quite unlike a malinois which is perfectly built to do that.