If you don't want to add supplements to her food then, by far, it is better to see if she will eat bones.

If she will not eat bones than you are forced to either...

1. Add calcium to her chunks of meat and offal or,

2. Feed her mincemeat such as that which you have chosen.

Neither option is ideal. Personally, I would always choose option 1 but I know others feel differently. Fact is there's nowt much in bones than minerals and it simply does not matter what the source of these is. Would you consider eggshell powder to be 'artificial' I wonder?

Btw, in either case will you be serving a far from optimum diet unless you feed meat only from grass fed sources which is an extremely expensive way to feed a cat. Failing that you really need to add a source of omega 3 fatty acids to her diet and that, in turn, leads to the absolute requirement to add some vitamin E.

No vitamins or minerals is a laudable aim but, as soon as you scratch the surface, not a great idea unless you are willing to go to great lengths and expense to avoid them.

 

Kiezebrink quote the following:

Because Alaska Natural Catfood contains no artificial vitamins, it important to provide your cat with a varied diet; this way your cat gets all the required nutrients.

The combi box contains a selection of all the Alaska Catfood flavours (22 x 250gm). Picture only for guidance.

I emailed kiezerbrink about adding supplements and they said there is no need to use supplements with their food as it contains bone, offal and meat everything a cat needs. One of the mixes they supply in the combi box contains fish so this would cover the omega 3 aspect?

 

Why is it called Alaska ?

 

Satori, I'm looking at transitioning away from feeding bone in minces as I'm finding sharp bits. Have just ordered calcium carbonate to try them with but was interested to see your talk of omega 3 and vitamin E. Are you saying that these should be added to all raw? I haven't been doing this as I've been feeding to the 80-10-10 ratio and didn't think I needed to but am now concerned.

 

These minces are definitely bone heavy but we know that . My boy Ike was on purrform from the breeder so I bought some, when I took him to be microchipped the vet said he was constipated. Which I knew as his poos were light in colour and hard, so I was adding chunks of lamb to the mince.

The recipe Hobbs added to the forum has Vit E included - I use Vit E oil.

 

This is interesting, I've been eyeing up Kiezebrink for a while now but still haven't made an order as it was a bit of a pain with delivery charges. The combi box is definitely something I'm going to order once I need to buy the boys some food again. I'll be giving them a mix of this, raw chunks and their normal wet food, we'll see how it goes Hopefully shouldn't have any constipation problems (they're very proud to tell me each day there's no problem in that department :Yuck).

 

Satori, I'm looking at transitioning away from feeding bone in minces as I'm finding sharp bits. Have just ordered calcium carbonate to try them with but was interested to see your talk of omega 3 and vitamin E. Are you saying that these should be added to all raw? I haven't been doing this as I've been feeding to the 80-10-10 ratio and didn't think I needed to but am now concerned.

Carly, in my opinion yes in most cases. But let's take a step back.

One problem with pet food be that raw or cooked is too much omega 6. Actually human food too in most cases. The natural diet of a wild or feral cat who is hunting prey will have a ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 of about 2:1 whereas the ratio in most pet foods is about 20:1 and in most supermarket meat it will be in the teens. This has an inflammatory effect on the system and is widely recognised to be harmful to health, maybe not at a level to lose sleep over but it is definitely worth addressing.

The best way by far to address this issue is to feed a diet that is appropriately lower in omega 6. However that is too expensive and/or impractical for most of us to contemplate. You would need to be feeding grass fed lamb, foraging chicken, wild boar, wild game and home-bred rodents.

So what most people (who are aware of the issue) do is to add rich sources of omega 3 to the diet and bring the ratio back into an acceptable range. Personally, I work to 4:1 or lower. Even FEDIAF recognise this issue and although the adult cat profiles do not include an omega 3 minimum level, if you read all the footnotes wou will see that is only because they can't agree on the precise amount but they do recognise that cat food needs omega 3 added in most cases. Commonly published home made recipes, like the Hobbs recipe on pf, address the ratio adequately typically by adding salmon or krill oil.

But now we have another problem. The ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 might now be in an acceptable range but the absolute level of polyunsaturated fats is very high because we added 3 instead of reducing 6. In cats that is proven to be a potential cause of vitamin e deficiency so most authorities right up to the NRC recommend supplementing with vitamin e to compensate for the extra PUFA level in the diet, especially if fish oils are the source of omega 3.

 

Hmmmm, it's never easy, is it! Ok, so is there a finite amount of stuff you have to add? I really need to get this right as I'll be weaning onto it. And just to be clear, the affects from not adding either are a slightly worse outcome for health? the outcome from just adding the salmon or cryll oil is vitamin E deficiency, and adding both is the best way to get around it, right?

Hobb's recipe I can't find, but I'm looking at using calcium carbonate instead of bone. The cats will only eat mince, but this way I can use the same food for adults that I'm weaning onto without worrying about splinters. I plan to add 1 tsp per KG to adult meat, and 1.5 to kitten meat for extra calcium. Sound all right?

At the minute, I can get beef skirt and leg, and lamb chunks as well as the offally bits to go with them. Could probably also get chicken but not so sure on that one.However, with the calcium carbonate, my options open a lot in terms of using local butchers etc which I'd really like to do.

With all that in mind, how much salmon/cryll and vitamin E would I need to add per KG?

Sorry for so many questions!

 

Hmmmm, it's never easy, is it! Ok, so is there a finite amount of stuff you have to add? I really need to get this right as I'll be weaning onto it. And just to be clear, the affects from not adding either are a slightly worse outcome for health? the outcome from just adding the salmon or cryll oil is vitamin E deficiency, and adding both is the best way to get around it, right?

Yes you summed it up perfectly.

Hobb's recipe I can't find, but I'm looking at using calcium carbonate instead of bone. The cats will only eat mince, but this way I can use the same food for adults that I'm weaning onto without worrying about splinters. I plan to add 1 tsp per KG to adult meat, and 1.5 to kitten meat for extra calcium. Sound all right?

Let's do this on weight first. For kittens a simplified way of looking at it is that you must have an absolute minimum of 1g of calcium per 100g of dry matter in the food. Most commercial foods have more that this, even in their adult versions. Omnomnom has 1.2g for example, Granatapet, more still. I would aim for about 1.2g per 100g in your mix and it will be fine for kittens or adults. As you know, the litter tray then tells you how to fine tune.

So, let's assume your mix is 70% moisture so you have 300g of dry matter in each kilo. You need to add 3.6g of calcium. Calcium Carbonate is 40% calcium so you need to add 9g of calcium carbonate to each kg of the mix. I can't give that in tsp because estimates, on the web, of the weight of calcium carbonate in a tsp vary very widely. Hopefully your scales can do 9g. If not you could just weigh10 of your normal teaspoons to see what your average tsp weighs and divide that into 9.

Hope that makes sense.

With all that in mind, how much salmon/cryll and vitamin E would I need to add per KG?

I would add 3g of krill oil or 5g of salmon oil per kg and I recommend you do the same. If your adults aren't used to the taste of it, work up to full strength gradually in case you get a whole batch rejected.

I am aware this is a much higher dose than many on-line recipes recommend including the most popular one cited on pet forums but I stand by my numbers. I can only assume the difference is because the popular recipes stem back to an old recipe, probably Natasha's, and the quality of farmed meat has declined significantly over the intervening years. My calculations are based on the nutritional composition of meat you can actually buy today.

Then, to compensate you need vitamin E. First you need to establish how many IU's are in a dose of the product you are using. AFFCO would recommend adding 50 IU's of vitamin E to this mix but you can err on the high side. Lisa Pearson uses 4 to 5 times more than that if I recall correctly. So if you have a capsule with 100-200 IUs of vitamin e it won't do any harm to just chuck the whole thing in.

Good luck.

 

^ too far into my second bottle for mental arithmetic tonight but I will get back to you tomorrow

 

Rather than a link I have cut and pasted the text. This is the boneless receip Hobbs gave me and I am very happy with it. Although the last couple of batches I have made has been the bone in version.

Ok, here is an example of a lamb-based boneless recipe

1kg of lamb meat (shoulder, leg etc)
500g lamb breast
250g lamb heart (can be any other heart)
250g lamb kidney (can be any other kidney etc)
56g chicken liver (note that different livers contain different levels of Vit A so it will not always be the 56g)
3.4g of salmon

Supplements
2.8g seaweed powder.
4g of brewer's yeast.
wheatgerm oil 40g.
salt 1.5g
up to 4.3g taurine

if you don't substitute some of the kidney for lung or if you don't feed duck, then perhaps consider adding fortain for iron. suggested amount here is 19.7g

For the calcium
Bonemeal (35.7/25.6) - 3.5g. Bought
Eggshell 10g. Bought

That gives you
energy: 93%
Calcium: 91.5%
Phosphorus: 91.7%
Iron: 99.8%
Iodine 97.3%
Vit A 100%
Vit D3: 99.9%
Vit E: 100.5%

You can better the ca/p levels by adding 2.25g of dicalciumphosphate, which brings the calcium up to 101.5% and the phosphorus to 99.9%

 

Thank you both very much, both for the recipe and the advice!

Satori, can I overdose on calcium, omega 3 or vitamin E? This si my main concern. Guessing the answer to vitamin E is yes as it's a fat soluble one.

 

Satori, can I overdose on calcium, omega 3 or vitamin E? This si my main concern. Guessing the answer to vitamin E is yes as it's a fat soluble one.

Calcium, yes in theory. Recommended upper limit for cats is between 1.5:1 and 2:1 over Potassium but safe upper limit is quite a lot higher. Hyperglycaemia is more likely to be cause by an excess of vitamin D than of calcium itself. In practise you aren't operating at dangerous levels and the first sign you will see of too much calcium is stools that point towards constipation so let the litter box guide you. Ferals eating prey have much more calcium than the quantities we are talking about btw.

Omega 3 for sure. An excess of fatty acids can do a damage as they oxidise plus I guess there's a risk of low blood pressure. Again, the quantities we are talking are comparable to a natural diet though. We are in safe margins. Of course, if we could feed naturally produced meat we wouldn't be adding fish oils at all.

I have never heard of vitamin e being toxic interestingly enough though you'd expect it to be problematic. High doses have been trialled in cats without problem. Adding 10iu per gram of fish oil is way within known safe limits and some pet foods have much more. (Come to think of it, Felini complete adds more than that.)

So not major concerns vs the benefits. In all three cases a deficit is worse than a reasonable excess. But you are right to flag that you have to dose carefully.

 

Thank you for all the posts. I cancelled the order with Kiezebrink. The above recipe looks great.

Can I ask where is good to source the supplements from and the egg shell powder?

Thank you

 

Take a look at the thread with the recipe in, it discusses various sourcing options. For egg shell it's easy to make your own, just bake the shells at a low temperature to dry them out and give them a good work out in a grinder. The smell when you grind them is just gorgeous and it drive the cats bonkers.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/easy-raw-recipe.133110/

 

Interesting, Satori. Someone on another group says there's no point in bonemeal as you have to add a lot more of it and there's already phosphorous in the meat. Don't know whether I'm coming or going half the time with this do your own raw, and I'm incredibly worried!

 

There's something in what they say but it's worth being aware of the numbers.....

A kilo of raw chicken with skin on will have negligible calcium and about 1.5g of phosphorous. So far so good but you will want to get at least 3g of elemental calcium in the mix so now your ca/p ratio is 2:1. Some people will not be happy feeding that ratio although personally I wouldn't lose sleep over it. Your mix of beef and lamb has more phosphorous, about 1.8g per kilo but that stills give a higher ca/p ratio than folk usually feed which is typically in the 1:1 to 1.2:1 range. I don't get fussed about ca/p being high so long as it isn't ridiculous but using a mix of bonemeal and calcium carbonate / egg shell powder allows you to make the ratio anything you want it to be and even vary doses according to the cut of meat, if you want to be super fussy.

 

So how can Felini always get it right then!

 

It has 19% elemental calcium and 3% elemental phosphorous which just about perfect for most protein sources. Add enough Felini to get the right amount of calcium in the diet and that 3% of phosphorous brings the ratio inside of most recommended ranges.

So, if you add enough Felini to give 3g of calcium to that kilo of chicken you also add half a gram of phosphorous to take the total to 2g and the ratio to 1.5. Simples.

Btw, Felini also contains enough added vitamin e to match the higher levels of fish oil that should be added to modern farmed meat.

You should be aware that the dosing instructions for Felini are not ideal and for a better nutritional content you should typically overdose by a good 20%.

Felini is a good option as part of a varied approach. For example, you could feed a mix of the following meals.

- Muscle and offal supplemented with calcium carbonate or ESP.
- Just muscle supplemented with Felini dosed at plus 20%.
- High phosphorous muscle (such as pig cheeks) with Felini dosed normally plus some added calcium.

Fwiw, that's pretty much my current regime plus quail and mice when they can be persuaded. (I add krill oil, beta glucan and plaque off too).

 

Oh man, it's melting my head! Thank you Satori, but I think I've finally met my brick wall. I just can't get my head around this!

Simply, will my kittens be all right to wean onto beef/lamb offal and muscle with calcium carbonate added or do I absolutely need to supplement with other things?

Should I use the bonemeal from Zooplus instead of CC, and does this change anything about what else I might have to add? Which option is better?

Thank you so much for being so patient with me!

 

Carly, why not use both the bonemeal AND the calcium carbonate or eggshell powder. The recipe in cookieandme's post has the same ratio of ca to p bonemeal as the stuff you can get on zooplus, so you wouldn't need to do any further calculations. Not sure where you get your calcium carbonate from but be mindful that it comes in different "strengths". I have seen calcium carbonates that have 37% - 40%.

Personally, I would add more than just the bone substitution.

Cookieandme linked to Tatzenladen, which has a good selection of supplements. Personally, I think the best shop for raw feeding supplements is Lilly's Bar - another German shop but the lady who runs it is extremely helpful and the selection is just unparalleled.

 

Different strengths? Really? Oh, now I'm just falling to pieces! Thought CC was CC and that's all there is to it!

 

Calcium carbonate = CaCO3
Atomic weight of Ca is 40, C is 12, O is 16.
40 + 12 + 16*3 = 100
40 / 100 is.... well you can do this bit yourself.

My chemistry is only high school level from 36 years ago however. If there's a more advanced way of working it out I would be interested to know.

 

Thank you!

 

Who's this Nicole?

 

Nicole is the owner of Tatzenladen.

 

Thank you. May write to her too! Still thoroughly confused about what to do. I've bought 1 of the minced beefy bits and minced lamby bits from West Fife raw feeds, and 5 each of the finest beef mince and lamb mince. Was initially just going to add the CC but will now need to find vitamin E etc. Sigh. Never easy!

 

I used to use wheatgerm oil but use vit e drops these days - much easier and economical in the long run!

But to be honest, Carly, I think you need to decide how you want to feed raw! Only you can decide whether you fall into the raw feeding camp that believes that raw meat bought from the butcher/supermarket etc and that is cobbled together to follow certain ratios contains the nutrients a cat needs (i.e. mimics the natural food source) or whether you need to supplement with certain things (seaweed, brewer's yeast, fortain, salt etc). I know what camp I belong to but it sounds as though you still need to find out for yourself.

 

Now I'm scared as the "complete" that I'm feeding is just 80-10-10. If there was a finite amount of everything to supplement with then I'd be much happier to do it. It's just the differing amounts based on what meat you use that has me thrown. I'm terrified of supplementing and giving them too much.

 

You see, I am quite lucky in that I have access to a German raw food calculator. That adjusts the amounts of supplements one roughly needs/ought to/wants to include depending on the type of meat. But in all honesty, the changes aren't dramatic and perhaps I have become a bit lazier or more relaxed about it but I tend to use the same amount regardless these days.

The guys who came up with that calculator years ago had plans to translate it into English but nothing ever came of it.

In terms of over-supplementing - the things to watch out for, as you well know, are the fat-soluble vitamins (A - eg in liver, egg yolk; Vit E - in wheatgerm oil,vit e drops and vit D - e.g. salmon). I also use seaweed for iodine (some also use spirulina for magnesium as in the mix that Satori has described) and fortain (dried beef blood) for iron. I wouldn't want to feed too much of these either but I think you would need to have some constant mishaps in terms of quantities to really mess that up. I also use brewer's yeast for B12 - because it is water-soluble any excess just gets eliminated.

But in a typical batch I prepare I only use small amounts of these. Microscales are your best friend when using supplements to feed raw - though I am not sure how they work for visually impaired people.

Well, and I guess I just outed myself as someone who supplements the raw feed lol.

 

I use the recipe I posted and have also used the boneless version Hobbs gave me. I really don't think it's necessary to change the amount of suppliments based on the main meat I use. I don't think the stress is worth it, I know I am feeding the best possible ingredients and rotating the type of meat, lamb, Turkey etc. I know it's a lot better than anything I can buy, so changing a gram here and there is not something to worry about.

 

I assumed you were Hobbs several posts ago. Is that not the case?

Blimey, Satori, how did you figure that out so quickly? I have only posted a few times!

I couldn't remember my password, the email address that my account is linked to doesn't exist any more so I had to create a new identity. A homage to Bagpuss, my food allergy cat, who got me interested in cat food.

 

haven't been posted on here for a long while myself, but hello again!! Welcome back!

 

I've known for ages! Haven't said anything as I figured you were here in disguise and didn't want to be outted!

If I posted up here what I have easy access to in terms of pre-minced, pre-prepared meats, do you reckon you (and Satori of course) could take a look and let me know what you think? The difficulty is that there are no accessible micro-scales, so again I'm stumped. Someone else has suggested supplementing naturally with oily fish/eggs added to the mix, which to be honest I'd find a lot easier. I'm planning to do a ZP order today so could get bonemeal, bovine fat, forten etc and it would be here in time for kittens next week. I'm also planning to order taurine anyway.

I'll post it here just in case you guys can help.

 

Carly, sorry, I had a busy few days and didn't see your post until just now. I presume you have put in an order for some supplements? Sure, you can add oily fish and eggs to the mix but it depends on what you want to supplement and for what reason.

Yup, I thought as much re those nifty microscales. Could your flatmate perhaps help you out there? He wouldn't need to get into contact with any of the raw meats - he could even prepare the mix of supplements in a different room. Even better, he could mix up a few mixes and bag them so that you can then use them later (that will work for all of the powders but you will have to add the Vit E in whatever form later - if you want to add it).

 

Things I can't do: Can't grind my own at the minute as housemate is against it.
Can't use supermarket meat due to bacteria load (he's got an immune condition. Salmonela etc would be life threatening for him).
Can't feed chunks, they won't eat them.

Here's what I've got in the freezer. All these packs come in 500G sizes, and I can buy as many or as little as needed.


2.25 KG of:
Beef flank, Beef sides, beef skirt

500G of:
25% ox kidney and pancreas, 25% ox liver, 50% beef heart and lung

gives, in theory: 5% liver, 5% secreting organ, 80% muscle meat. 10% bone made up with calcium carbonate, approx 7.5G per KG.

I could substitute the skirt etc with:
30% beef skirt and trim, 35% beef heart and lung, 35% beef tongue

Then there's lamb:

Same proportions as above:
lamb breast, Lamb leg, lamb rib, no bone

25% lambs kidney and pancreas, 25% lambs liver, 50% lamb heart and lung

I can actually buy lamb liver separately and guess I could get kidney from the butcher already minced, but is there any way of making a complete recipe out of the above? happy to supplement as long as someone tells me exactly what!

 

That reminds me I need to get some more Fortan Fortain...... : ))

Zooplus don't sell it any more so I have been struggling to get hold of it. I recently bought some dried Pig's blood intended for sausage making and will be trialling that soon.
Let me know if you do find Fortan anywhere please @Citrineblue

 

I have reordered it since from a different site getting two containers. I will look it up and send you the link, it was a foreign site. I've looked it up recently meaning to do an order, and they still do it.

 

Hi there SB

Nope, unfortunately he can't... He's nearly as blind as I am! I guess I could get a friend to do it for me, but then I'm limited to what I can feed per month in terms of how many bags she'd miss, and I'd be worried that I'd lose a lot of the small amount on the surface of the bag etc. Also haven't got time to do that now as kittens will be 3 weeks on Saturday and will start weaning. It's really annoying!

I haven't put in the order just yet, so will hold off for a little while longer to see if you have anything to suggest. Can very easily do the likes of oily fish or eggs. Could add whole capsules of something to a mix too. I can do 5 ml teaspoons of stuff and I think I know somewhere that does 2.5 ML measuring spoons although not sure. Does that help at all?

Sorry to make things so awkward, but I'm so limited in what I can and can't do.

 

Oh no! Darn and I can totally understand that you wouldn't want to rely on a friend the whole time for mixing up the supplements.

I am beginning to wonder whether it wouldn't just be easier for you to use a pre-prepared mix of supplements. Hobbs loves the Premix from Tatzenladen: http://www.tatzenladenshop.de/en/TCPremix/TCPremix-Basic. Depending on how many mouths you have to feed it might turn out to be an expensive option but at least it would only involve you buying meat, liver and mixing up the powders. Couldn't be simpler.