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How Can The BBC Justify.....

21K views 312 replies 32 participants last post by  Arnie83  
#1 ·
#2 ·
When I saw the title, I knew what the thread would be about. Absolutely disgraceful. Shame on the BBC!
 
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#3 ·
The BBC; The ministry of truth. Visionaries, liars, fraudsters and profiteers. Propaganda funded and paid for by the TV licence fee.

Have you ever noticed how those 'Rivers of Blood' rarely ever flow with the blood of those who first incite the hatred.:(
 
#4 ·
Has anyone ever heard the actual speech? Too many people refer to this without actually knowing it's full content (IMO).

For me this sections stood out in the article ..... "BBC Media Editor Amol Rajan defended the broadcast, saying it would be "broken up, and critiqued by voices from across the spectrum. Not just read out in a single go."

I think it sounds interesting & will be listening to others' interpretation & views on it
 
#5 ·
Has anyone ever heard the actual speech? Too many people refer to this without actually knowing it's full content (IMO).

For me this sections stood out in the article ..... "BBC Media Editor Amol Rajan defended the broadcast, saying it would be "broken up, and critiqued by voices from across the spectrum. Not just read out in a single go."

I think it sounds interesting & will be listening to others' interpretation & views on it
Has anyone read Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf"? I don't think we need to do without getting an idea what that's about.

Perhaps the BBC should serialise an English translation read by Nigel Farage?

Powell's speech was enough to get him fired from the Conservative Party at the time. I think that says enough!

I'm too young to remember it myself but did see a local news item featuring a group of people who held a petition in support of the speech.

The Tyne Tees reporter asked one of them who said she was not racist but..... Anyway the reporter put it to her she must be racist if she declares supporting the speech.
She replied after a pause, "You got me there".

Actually I don't believe in censorship but I find the timing of this very wrong with the rising of the far right and reports of increasing racial hatred we've seen recently.

Powell's speech was made, that can't be unchanged. That was the attitude of the time.

But it belongs in the past.
 
#8 ·
Surely it depends on the context?? If its to disprove and debunk any inappropriate comments then isnt that a good thing? You shouldnt brush this stuff under the carpet...as the quote goes 'those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'.

As for sending everybody back where they came from, I really hope not. Was working last night and not sure the ward would of coped if 6 of the staff had suddenly vanished and left just the 2 of us!LOL:Hilarious
 
#10 ·
For any one who feels the need you can read it here:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643823/Enoch-Powells-Rivers-of-Blood-speech.html

and an article from the Guardian last year which shows that there have always been, and I hope will always be, at least two sides
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...dparents-enoch-powell-and-the-day-they-fell-out-over-his-rivers-of-blood-speech

(The couple who were friends and were babysitting for Powell while he made that speech did not speak to him again for many years, the woman never did, the man eventually did)
 
#11 · (Edited)
Interesting points raised by all. Had the speech been printed in, "The Guardian" for example may have come over differently to how it may do on the BBC.

The broadcaster have adopted a firm pro right agenda in recent months with multiple appearances of Farage on, "Question Time" for example.
 
#19 ·
From the extracts I've seen and heard anyone today would be prosecuted for inciting racial hatred for such a speech. Even his own party were appalled - In 1968.

With so much, "Looking to the past" We've witnessed in recent times we can only hope some won't get the impression such a statement would be deemed acceptable today.
 
#14 ·
It’s 50 years old. Surely it is now a matter of historical interest. I don’t think the idea of broadcasting it is so awful. I wasn’t really old enough to analyse it all those years ago so I am quite interested. I do know my very hazy memory of it doesn’t necessarily gel with the way it’s been portrayed since. I’d rather hear the whole thing rather than carefully selected sound bites which is what we’ve been fed over the years.
 
#17 ·
I would also say that seeing it as it was spoken has more value than reading the transcript. How often do we say on here that you don’t always get proper context or intended emotion from the written word?

We can’t ignore things we don’t like and it can be very dangerous to do so. There are still plenty of people with horrendously racist views, if anything I think it’s worse in some ways than it was fifty years ago.
 
#26 ·
I think it will depend on how it is discussed, if there is a balanced discussion about it with views for and against and clear reasons explaining why they support these viewpoints (not just oh I hate immigrants) then it could prove quite interesting. I don't like it personally and would never support views like his but that doesn't mean I wont listen to people who do so long as they are able to back up their viewpoint. History is one of my favourite subjects and always has been, lots of horrible things have happened historically, and yes it is important we know about this and learn from it I think. IF the BBC do a discussion basically agreeing with it then yes I can understand people getting angry (Would they though?). But just getting angry at the idea of them broadcasting and discussing it without even knowing how this will be done, do some people not like learning about anything that they dislike? (I'm not saying that In a judgy way, just genuinely curious?)
 
#29 ·
An example of why people are concerned about broadcasting the speech >>>

Leave.EU‏Verified account@LeaveEUOfficial
People still listen to Enoch Powell half a century after his famous speech, while nobody cares what @Andrew_Adonis says about anything.
No wonder he's so bitter about the BBC broadcasting the Rivers of Blood speech tomorrow!
Support us at http://leave.eu/get-involved


Image


Andrew Adonis's letter

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And tweets from a commentator on the program, now bitterly regretting taking part.

Shirin Hirsch‏@ShirinHirsch
Shirin Hirsch Retweeted Amol Rajan

Disgusted by the way the BBC are promoting this show. I made a mistake and was interviewed for this but I have been sick with worry since
seeing the way this is being presented.

Shirin Hirsch‏@ShirinHirsch 24h24 hours ago
Thanks. I'm still hoping my section will be withdrawn from the show. When I was asked to be interviewed I wasn't told the full speech would be played.
but I should have been more careful.
Whole experience has been terrible
 
#32 ·
An example of why people are concerned about broadcasting the speech >>>

Leave.EU‏Verified account@LeaveEUOfficial
People still listen to Enoch Powell half a century after his famous speech, while nobody cares what @Andrew_Adonis says about anything.
No wonder he's so bitter about the BBC broadcasting the Rivers of Blood speech tomorrow!
Support us at http://leave.eu/get-involved


Image


Andrew Adonis's letter

Image


And tweets from a commentator on the program, now bitterly regretting taking part.

Shirin Hirsch‏@ShirinHirsch
Shirin Hirsch Retweeted Amol Rajan

Disgusted by the way the BBC are promoting this show. I made a mistake and was interviewed for this but I have been sick with worry since
seeing the way this is being presented.

Shirin Hirsch‏@ShirinHirsch 24h24 hours ago
Thanks. I'm still hoping my section will be withdrawn from the show. When I was asked to be interviewed I wasn't told the full speech would be played.
but I should have been more careful.
Whole experience has been terrible
Noushka, i was born in 1950, i can't say i remember hearing this speech in full. But i do remember that " black" people were few and far between. I also remember in the early 60's " the paddies" ( irish men workers), were more or less frowned on in the same way. Then we had Pakistanie people, or the uproar then too. I can remember people being worried these new people were going to steel our jobs, homes and so on. Sound familiar?
I don't think it is right to stop the speech, but as i have said, i DO worry about the way the bbc handles it.
 
#37 ·
I am trying to work out myself whether the arguments are against it being shown at all or about who shows it and how. The only unbiased way of showing it at all is in it’s entirety, without interruptions and probably without comment. I’d trust people to make up their own minds and I doubt many (if any) would change from an original position having seen it.
 
#38 ·
I've read the speech (forgot most of it) and have read some of Mein Kampf while studying modern history, and guess what, I'm not a racist :) One very important thing i learned on that course was never to forget the bad parts of history and some (many) would say this is the reason we ended up in WW2. There are so many 20 somethings these days that have no idea what our parents and grandparents went through and why and that is a very dangerous thing to happen as they need to learn from past generations mistakes.
 
#43 ·
#46 ·
It’s a really important historical moment.

You’ll find most children study this in their history lessons in secondary school, as we should try to learn from history instead of pretending it didn’t happen.

If you don’t want to be reminded of awful things that have happened, then don’t listen to/read them.

As someone who studied A-level history ready my struggle was compulsory, are we now trying to forget Hitler as well?!
 
#47 ·
On theme, but on a different slant...
Did anyone watch, 'Louis meets the Nazis' in the Louise Theroux series.. or the Westboro maniacs?

We could well argue giving these people any kind of publicity facilitates people with the same ideals to join their numbers/strengthen their ranks. But equally I think showing that actually there is a segment of society that do foster racist ideals or fascist beliefs is a discussion as a society we need to have.
 
#48 ·
I think there was an episode of, "The Tomorrow People" where one of them was brainwashed by an alien source disguised as Adolf Hitler! The leader John eventually snapped his colleague out of it and expressed how evil Hitler was to him.

I remember a BBCtv drama years ago involving a far right fascist group. The fictional one they created beared Powell's portrait and name.
 
#53 · (Edited)
The only people that seem to have a problem with Enoch Powell's speech and the recent airing of it are left-wing people that don't like anything that may challenge their own preconceived beliefs. Many also have misconceptions about Powell and his beliefs.

Can someone actually refute any of Powell's arguments?

Also, just for the record, Powell never once argued against race, he argued against mass immigration. I've not seen any evidence that Powell was racist.

Powell was a highly intelligent man and principled politician, unlike the so-called politicians of today. He was a classic scholar and became a full professor at Ancient Greek at the age of 25. He fought during WW2 in staff and intelligent positions. He was a for a few weeks the youngest brigadier in the British army. He could speak several different languages and was fluent in German, Italian, French, Urdu, Russian, Welsh, modern Greek, Portuguese, etc. At the age of 70 he was learning his 14th language, Hebrew. He was noted for his gift of oratory and his ability to speak in different languages.

He wrote poetry and books about social and political subjects.

For those generally interested in the life of Enoch Powell, I recommend you to read Simon Heffer's biography: Like The Roman: The Life of Enoch Powell. There are other books available but that book is the best one out so far.

Also, some of his comments about immigration and race:

In 1964 he said:

"I have and always will set my face like flint against making any difference between one citizen of this country and another on the grounds of his origins."

David Frost asked him "are you a racialist?", he replied:

"It depends on how you define the word "racialist." If you mean being conscious of the differences between men and nations, and from that, races, then we are all racialists. However, if you mean a man who despises a human being because he belongs to another race, or a man who believes that one race is inherently superior to another, then the answer is emphatically "No."

In The Guardian he wrote in 1970:

"It so happens that I never talk about race. I do not know what race is."

In 1968 on Any Questions?:

"...it depends indeed on whether the immigrants are different, and different in important respects from the existing population. Clearly, if they are identical, then no change for the good or bad can be brought about by the immigration. But if they are different, and to the extent that they are different, then numbers clearly are of the essence and this is not wholly - or mainly, necessarily - a matter of colour. For example, if the immigrants were Germans or Russians, their colour would be approximately the same as ours, but the problems which would be created and the change which could be brought about by a large introduction of a bloc of Germans or Russians into five areas in this country would be as serious - and in some respects more serious - than could follow from an introduction of a similar number of West Indians or Pakistanis."

In 1969 on the BBC TV:

"Trevor Huddleston: ...what I still want to know from you, really, is why the presence of a coloured immigrant group is objectionable, when the presence of a non-coloured immigrant is not objectionable.
Enoch Powell: Oh no, oh no! On the contrary, I have often said that if we saw the prospect of five million Germans in this country at the end of the century, the risks of disruption and violence would probably be greater, and the antagonism which would be aroused would be more severe. The reason why the whole debate in this country on immigration is related to coloured immigration, is because there has been no net immigration of white Commonwealth citizens, and there could be no migration of aliens. This is merely an automatic consequence of the facts of the case; it is not because there is anything different, because there is anything necessarily more dangerous, about the alienness of a community from Asia, than about the alienness of a community from Turkey or from Germany, that we discuss this inevitably in terms of colour. It is because it is that problem."

Also, let us not forget that in 1959 he made a speech about the Hola Massacre:

"On 27 July 1959, Powell gave his speech on the Hola Camp of Kenya, where eleven Mau Mau were killed after refusing work in the camp. Powell noted that some MPs had described the eleven as "sub-human", but Powell responded by saying: "In general, I would say that it is a fearful doctrine, which must recoil upon the heads of those who pronounce it, to stand in judgement on a fellow human being and to say, 'Because he was such-and-such, therefore the consequences which would otherwise flow from his death shall not flow'." Powell also disagreed with the notion that because it was in Africa, different methods were acceptable:

Nor can we ourselves pick and choose where and in what parts of the world we shall use this or that kind of standard. We cannot say, 'We will have African standards in Africa, Asian standards in Asia and perhaps British standards here at home'. We have not that choice to make. We must be consistent with ourselves everywhere. All Government, all influence of man upon man, rests upon opinion. What we can do in Africa, where we still govern and where we no longer govern, depends upon the opinion which is entertained of the way in which this country acts and the way in which Englishmen act. We cannot, we dare not, in Africa of all places, fall below our own highest standards in the acceptance of responsibility.

Denis Healeey, a member of parliament from 1952 to 1992, later said this speech was "the greatest parliamentary speech I ever heard... it had all the moral passion and rhetorical force of Demosthenes". The Daily Telegraph report of the speech said that "as Mr Powell sat down, he put his hand across his eyes. His emotion was justified, for he had made a great and sincere speech"."

I find it really sad that if anyone seems to say anything positive about Enoch Powell some will regard that person as far-right, racist, fascist and lots of other nonsense. The same can be said if anyone criticises immigration, etc.

Nevertheless, those people that resort to name calling clearly cannot hold an argument so it's pointless even trying to debate with such people.

Recently the Express & Star did an online poll about the question of whether or not Powell should get a blue plaque and out of the 20,000 asked 70% of people agreed he should.
 
#54 ·
#55 ·
That poster is neither xenophobic nor hate mongering.

Left-wing newspapers regard anything that criticises immigration as a form of xenophobia. It's a boogeyman.

If you actually looked up the definition of 'xenophobia' you would see that it means fear or hatred of people from different countries and cultures, criticising mass immigration does not fall into that category.

I think you will find that if you asked the average person in the street he or she would agree with Farage's poster. Immigration is the main concern for people these days and has been for decades. This also includes those British citizens who are immigrant-descended themselves.
 
#75 ·
The issue isn’t whether the poster is a lie or not, the issue is that people are afraid of Others imo.

Say to me ‘omg Turkey might join the Eu’ I’d say ‘So what’, the poster would mean nothing to me and it shouldn’t mean anything to anyone else. That it does is the problem imo and speaks in some way to the lack of success of the Eu and its supporters.

Would it be a problem if Turkey (or other country) met the criteria and did join the Eu and should it be?

Farage wasn’t the only mep who didn’t turn up to debates. Apparently it’s known that if you aren’t of specific politics there’s no point and Nigel wasn’t of those specific politics. One of the Europeans complained about it and there’s statistical analysis, except I cba to look for it again lol. I think Corbyn complained about it too.

I don’t think Farage lies particularly, he doesn’t need to, it’s a mess.
 
#77 ·
The issue isn't whether the poster is a lie or not, the issue is that people are afraid of Others imo.
A user has claimed that Farage "lies constantly", that claim is simply not true.

Say to me 'omg Turkey might join the Eu' I'd say 'So what', the poster would mean nothing to me and it shouldn't mean anything to anyone else. That it does is the problem imo and speaks in some way to the lack of success of the Eu and its supporters.

Would it be a problem if Turkey (or other country) met the criteria and did join the Eu and should it be?
I am not necessarily speaking about you personally but I can never understand people that say things like "so what?" to things that will clearly more than likely have either a direct or indirect impact on their life (or their family) at some point in the future. It is very easy for people to say "I don't care" if it doesn't affect them at that time but when it actually does then their opinions change. There are now whole areas, especially in England that are no longer British. The last consensus of London revealed that less than half of London is now White British. Are the British people supposed to just stay quiet?

Immigration either from inside of the EU or anywhere is causing huge problems all over Europe. Look at Germany. Merkel's open-door immigration policy has caused the rise of nationalism because ordinary Germans have had enough. In a very short period of time the native Germans have found that there are now villages, cities and parts of towns that are literally no longer German. Are the German people supposed to just ignore the fact that their country is changing beyond recognition? I can easily cite other European countries which have the same problems.

Yes, any country joining the EU and giving the potential for more immigration is a problem that faces us all.

How is assimilation supposed to take place when we have huge numbers of immigrants that are retaining their identities such as Indian, Chinese, Jamaican, etc instead of actually adopting British culture and traditions? This is where the problem lies. Years ago people came to the country and generally speaking integrated and most people accepted and had no problem. However, to give a couple of examples, since Poland joined the EU in 2004 in just over a decade the Polish language is now the second most spoken language in England. There are second and third generation Indians living in the UK that think they are still in India and don't even speak a word of English and still regard themselves as Indian.