We have never created our puppy he has his big kennel and little house he goes in when we are at work but as soon as we are home he is out and not confined apart from baby gates

 

Oh wow... I'm not sure how I feel about that!

I do agree that crates are often abused, but I also think they are an invaluable tool for so many different situations.

When we have visiting dogs, they get crated for my own peace of mind and their own safety.
Sick dogs, dogs recovering from injury, puppies who can't be trusted not to electrocute themselves chewing wires, or poison themselves eating things they shouldn't.... So many situations where a crate is not only appropriate but maybe even necessary.

 

Bit of a silly law though and totally unenforceable, although I imagine crates are not readily available to buy to the general public as a result? I recall hearing this before though, as well as spaying/neutering being illegal in Norway.

 

Do not favour crates as this can be easily abused. People leave dogs crated when they go to work or to sleep or both!
How many hours that makes?
Dogs can be left in kennel roomsize at least or pet room if you must.
Best obviously is free run of some part of the house.
Now I like Finland even more.

 

Do not favour crates as this can be easily abused. People leave dogs crated when they go to work or to sleep or both!
How many hours that makes?
Dogs can be left in kennel roomsize at least or pet room if you must.
Best obviously is free run of some part of the house.
Now I like Finland even more.

They can definitely be missused. I agree there.
But do I think that crate training a dog is cruel? Not at all.
Logan hasn't been in his crate for more than half an hour for weeks and the absolute longest ever was three hours because I had to go to hospital.
I simply didn't trust him not to get up to mischief and end up hurting himself or for the cats to beat him up and cause ruction.
He has had two times outs of about 4 or 5 minutes in a crate in the last week and he had to go in there for all of 30 seconds on monday when I gave the cats their injections.
I have zero doubt that if I hadn't crate trained him, he'd have done something very dangerous when he was small. Now he is older and has had four months of training, he is much more sensible.

 

It is the same in Sweden, they have some strict dog laws, no idea if they are upheld though. As far as I know all dogs have to be on a registry, there's no routine neutering, there's time limits on how long a dog can be left and there's restricted use of a crate or tie out stake.

 

It explains why Cash's breeder's never crate trained him or his litter siblings then.

 

Since Jan 2013 by law, in Hungary all dogs up to 20 kgs in weight must have at least 10 square metres of living space.
All dogs over 20 kgs must have between 15 to 20 square metres of living space.

As many dogs are kept outside I think though this refers to kennel space rather than crates. Although you can buy crates from most pet stores it's very rarely you see dogs in crates whilst travelling in cars.The only people I know who do are our trainer and Gwylim's breeder who crate their Schnauzer's for trips to shows and to the vets.

Gwylim was crate trained by his breeder before I got him at 9 months old, but as I'd never crated a dog before I let him have the run of the house like Georgina and he now sleeps on my bed at night.

 

How would they ever know how long a dog was crated for to enforce it? I have never crated Dexter, but if I were to get another dog / puppy I would defo crate train so if the unexpected happened the were comfortable in one.

 

Fortunately it is unlikely that I will ever live in Finland............................. I really do not need the government to tell me how to raise a dog.

 

I'm not a fan of crates. I have one in the van for transporting dogs/cats but that's all. I think the fact I have extreme claustrophobia is why I'm not keen on them.

 

Mmmmm ........... seems a peculiar law to pass to me.

I have a large crate in my kitchen/diner. It's very rarely used, but I have crate trained our Staffy pup. It's not often at all I have to leave her, and even then for a maximum of two hours, but given the free run of my house, I'm certain she would become destructive.

She has a great attraction to electric cables and upholstery and could do a lot of damage in a couple of hours.

Far better, to me, she spends that time in a thickly bedded, comfortable crate, after a good long run in the woods, where she's safe and secure.

 

I've never used a crate. I considered it, but I just didn't think it was fair to lock the dog away, and it is way to easy to abuse and leave the dog in it for long hours at a time, not to mention any dogs I know when let out of a crate have a time of being hyper/excited to be out which leads to destruction, which completely defeats the purpose. To be there are far more effective ways and yes, even if they are slightly more work at least it doesn't include putting a dog in a cage, It was lucky when I even put a rabbit in a cage! I know Sweden also has a similar law. So while I don't have anything against other people crating dogs, I don't intend to do it with any of mine.

 

Could you explain what is a "far more effective way" when you have to leave a pup that is potentially a danger to itself?

 

So if you're allowed to use a crate for your dog if they're injured how are you supposed to get them used to it before they actually need to be in one?

Having Fitz already used to being in a crate (despite the fact he's not regularly been in one for a couple of years at least) has made his ongoing recovery so much easier than it would have been had he never been in one before.

 

If you have a fire, have the fire block on, make sure any wires are at a safe height or blocked from the gnawing puppy, Anytime we were going out we would have left the puppy in the kitchen, making sure everything on the counters was put away or pushed back, ensuring nothing was left lying on the floor which could have been dangerous and giving him a toy to play with, as well as a giant dog teddy for him to lie with. Fridge and cooker were blocked away using wooden blocks. Of course there were the wooden chairs which, as he got slightly older he gnawed against, but having a pup just wouldn't be the same without he sacrifices involved On Jake, who was our labxstaffy who enjoyed being especially destructive we cut of half the living room for him away from the wires and such along with the entire kitchen, blocking in the chairs with boxes etc. I know it may sound like more effort to some people than putting a dog in a crate, but I don't see it that way and know with relatives who don't like dogs having a crate around would just be an excuse for them to tell me to put the dogs inside for them to come in etc, afterall, there is no better relative detergent than dogs roaming around
Again I do know where others are coming from, but crates aren't for me. If the dog is happy fair enough, but I've just seen so many dogs fought into crates, or those who cry constantly etc I only know of one dog who enjoys his crate, and that's because he is in a house with three young children so often seeks refuge within it xD It all just depends how often it is used. Another thing is I taught Ace the simple 'bed' command and know I can trust him to remain within the bed once told for whatever duration such as someone at the door
Attached a photo of a young Ace with his big teddy and the blocked fridge in the background

 

It is wise to remember that YOUR experiences do not, necessarily reflect the majority.

All my dogs have been perfectly happy to be crated, as they are naturally denning animals.

I wonder if it is also illegal to keep horses in loose boxes in Finland which is actually much worse IMHO as horses are prey animals, as opposed to predators, and it can make them feel far more insecure, unlike dogs and their crates.

Some of us have had ultra destructive dogs or dogs that are super athletic and can open doors, fridges, turn on the gas etc. Boxes would have just been a mere distraction and not prevented destruction of furniture

Still I really enjoyed reading that your dog was a detergent for relatives.

 

I use a crate for both my dogs only used at night time for no more then 8 hours (sometimes one of them will ask to go wee during the night so they are let out then) and if I need to pop out shortly (school run or shopping). I chose to crate train Holly first night I got her as I read a lot before getting her and a lot of websites recommended crate training from day 1, Benji I got him when he was 8 months old he wasn't crate trained and would bark and howl constantly if ever he was left alone so we decided to try and crate train him which he took to straight away and doesn't bark or howl now when we leave him alone (his crate is somewhere he feels safe when alone), his old owner was surprised how well the crate worked as this was one of the reasons why they had to rehome him due to his barking and howling when left alone and she admitted she hadn't even thought about a crate.

I do agree with crates and would use them again however I do know crates can be abused and dogs can be kept in there more then there out of it which in my opinion is neglect.

 

Bob can't cope without being crated, we tried leaving him in an open area like the other 2 and he cried and cried getting all stressed out. The crate for him is routine. we just have a big one so he's got more than enough room

 

I live in a 1 bed flat now. My dogs are muddy and wet daily. They have a massive 48" crate. I have no where to put them wet. They come out dry after a couple of hours max.

They also spend hour and hours asleep in it just because they want to.

 

This was when Ace was younger, now he is able to open doors and such, he has a large kennel in the back garden for when the weather is good if we have to leave him so he can go out, It all likely depends if people had dogs in crates when they were growing up and stuff, where we have never crated dogs casually some may have for a number of reasons, including the dog being too hyper. Just using m own dog as an example again but Ace will pee/poop all over the kitchen now if left alone because of separation anxiety, we talked to a trainer and before we even mentioned a crate, she told us not to be using one with him as it would make it worst if he felt more trapped. The only place I find crates a god send is in work when washing dogs in this weather where I am able to put them in to get them dry. I agree it just depends on each independent dog, person, and house.

As for me getting a new dog/Ace resource guarding, I did seriously consider a crate, thinking of the advantages such as personal space and a break and disadvantages such as possibly feeling separated/left out considering Ace would still be roaming around, and the pup won't be used to crates when he arrives at 4 months. But I already have a plan for if worst comes to worst as far as giving the dogs their own spaces while integrating them in together, and Ace has an entire safe room of my bedroom, where the puppy will not be allowed until I know the dogs are fine with each other and even then will be sleeping downstairs for the first few months. If I thought a crate would help I will get one temporarily, despite not being fond of them ^^

 

This was when Ace was younger, now he is able to open doors and such, he has a large kennel in the back garden for when the weather is good if we have to leave him so he can go out, It all likely depends if people had dogs in crates when they were growing up and stuff, where we have never crated dogs casually some may have for a number of reasons, including the dog being too hyper. Just using m own dog as an example again but Ace will pee/poop all over the kitchen now if left alone because of separation anxiety, we talked to a trainer and before we even mentioned a crate, she told us not to be using one with him as it would make it worst if he felt more trapped. The only place I find crates a god send is in work when washing dogs in this weather where I am able to put them in to get them dry. I agree it just depends on each independent dog, person, and house.

As for me getting a new dog/Ace resource guarding, I did seriously consider a crate, thinking of the advantages such as personal space and a break and disadvantages such as possibly feeling separated/left out considering Ace would still be roaming around, and the pup won't be used to crates when he arrives at 4 months. But I already have a plan for if worst comes to worst as far as giving the dogs their own spaces while integrating them in together, and Ace has an entire safe room of my bedroom, where the puppy will not be allowed until I know the dogs are fine with each other and even then will be sleeping downstairs for the first few months. If I thought a crate would help I will get one temporarily, despite not being fond of them ^^

Dogs don't think like that provided they are introduced to them properly. If anything they make integration easier.

 

As I said I managed to train all my dogs not to chew the house and be calm in the house. When they were puppies just bedrooms closed...but one of my own brood was hyperactive..still is! So playpen was essential as he could get into trouble in seconds.
Yes...there was one unlucky kitchen table which all pups chewed on and all.cats scratched...
We let that be...dogs always learnt..
Cats never did...

Now Garfield and Scrip have full run of the house and no damage ever.
Some illicit scratching behind the new sofas...but we were talking about dogs?

 

I had a playpen for Rudi.

It was great, until the day she leapt out of it when I had a visitor.

 

Crate training really isn't be all and end all though, and I do think with how popular crating is these days that not everyone considers not all dogs tolerate or take to them. That is where the misuse of them comes into play. Don't get me wrong, I see how useful they are and find them brilliant solutions to containment and aiding in house training etc. However, a safe room or playpen can offer the same idea if preferable. I crate trained Missy up until she was 6 months old when it was no longer required, and try as I might I could not train Ty to accept it. He screamed blue murder in it, was chewing at the wires, scraping up the plastic bottom and trying to chew at that too. I was not only worried he'd cause himself injury, but we had adjoining neighbours too and whilst it's all good suggesting new owners 'ignore' protests from the pup, it's not always an option to do so with neighbours etc. So he was given his own bed in my room and I never heard another peep from him. Cash came to me having never set foot in one and again, try as I might I couldn't really accustom him to it. We preserved for about a month, but again, with adjoining neighbours it wasn't an option to continue to allow the pounding and crying. He did settle somewhat it in at times, and I think with further time he'd have come round, but to be honest once again, he was as good as gold outside in the home and therefore I didn't find the crate useful in our circumstances. Maybe my next pup will be more crate tolerant as I'm certainly not against using them, but I won't use them come what may if you get what I mean.

 

whilst it's all good suggesting new owners 'ignore' protests from the pup, it's not always an option to do so with neighbours etc. So he was given his own bed in my room and I never heard another peep from him. Cash came to me having never set foot in one and again, try as I might I couldn't really accustom him to it. We preserved for about a month, but again, with adjoining neighbours it wasn't an option to continue to allow the pounding and crying.

I have never put a dog in a crate and let them scream and cry about it, and I have a real problem with the advice to just plop the puppy in a crate and let them cry themselves quiet. I've never done that with any puppy or dog, and have a hard time picturing myself doing that. I never let my human kids just sit there and cry as babies, can't see why I would a dog...
No, crate training IMO is about teaching the dog that the crate is a great place to be, meals happen in the crate, treats happen in the crate, nice things happen in the crate, and when the dog is going in happily and withough issue, then for a few seconds you close the door, then before they notice they want out, you open it up again. Eventually they get to where a closed door isn't a big deal, but if being closed in freaks them out, you go back enough steps that they're okay.
I'm not one to use a crate for potty training, I never did get that, but then I suck at potty training puppies and generally leave it up to the rest of the dogs in the house to teach it, they do a far better job than I ever could. My only job potty training is to watch for the signs.

I agree that crates can be misused and overused, but that's a human issue, not a tool issue. Take away crates and the same humans will just find another way to confine the dog, or resort to tethering or putting the dog outside or whatever.
Removing the tool doesn't automatically make a better owner, education however, can

 

How do they plan on enforcing a law like this? Just make cages illegal? Seems a waste of time and effort on there part really.

I have never used crates for any of my dogs, though it does seem the "thing to do" nowadays. But yeah unless I had a dog that was a danger to himself/herself when left alone, I don't think I would ever use one.

 

How do they plan on enforcing a law like this? Just make cages illegal? Seems a waste of time and effort on there part really.

I have never used crates for any of my dogs, though it does seem the "thing to do" nowadays. But yeah unless I had a dog that was a danger to himself/herself when left alone, I don't think I would ever use one.

I think crates are a very good tool but like everything can be very much abused. Reminds me of e collars. A great tool in the right hands and an object of torture in others. Of course a collar only tortures for seconds, a crate used wrongly causes hours a day of misery.

I agree that crates can be misused and overused, but that's a human issue, not a tool issue. Take away crates and the same humans will just find another way to confine the dog, or resort to tethering or putting the dog outside or whatever.
Removing the tool doesn't automatically make a better owner, education however, can

Just as with making e collars illegal.

How do they plan on enforcing a law like this? Just make cages illegal? Seems a waste of time and effort on there part really.

I have never used crates for any of my dogs, though it does seem the "thing to do" nowadays. But yeah unless I had a dog that was a danger to himself/herself when left alone, I don't think I would ever use one.

Probably easier to enforce if they actually wanted to than enforcing the e collar ban. After all you can hardly hide a crate and the only way you will get caught is if someone reports you on either issue and unless you are using the e collar all the time on walks which would be totally incorrect then no one will know you own one. I know a few people that use them in appropriate situations but I have never actually seen them. They prefer their dog to have freedom on walks and to be safe.

I have used crates and I have kennelled. More often my dogs have been loose in the house. With a destructive dog I would choose kennelling over crating and I have kennelled in all weathers,. Can't really see how the wildlife is a problem. If you have a serial barker a kennel is not ideal but then a lot of dogs look out of the window of their house and bark at both wildlife and human life passing by which is also not ideal. Not sure you should put a dog in a crate for hours and hours whatever the reason (apart from injury, but personally not even happy about that, how on earth did we manage before crates). I am afraid I cannot see the argument that 'my dog goes in the crate to sleep when the door is open'. Of course it does if the crate is the bed. Most dogs love a den but they do not want to stay in it for 10 hours without a break. I know someone who has crates tucked under counters in her kitchen and when the dogs come in they slink off to their small cage and are shut in until they go out again. It would not be a way of keeping a dog that would suit me.

 

It amuses me when people think that crates are the "lazy" option. There's a world of difference between crate training a dog properly and shoving a dog in a crate and walking away.
It took a lot more time and effort to crate train Phoebe properly than just letting her have free run of the house, and if it wasn't absolutely essential to crate her, I wouldn't have bothered with one.
We use a crate for bedtime and while we eat dinner. She's also crated while we work on her separation anxiety as that is where she is least anxious and where she can injure herself the least.
We tried a playpen attached to her crate but she learnt how to escape the playpen at 9 weeks old. The first night she escaped, she ate the stuffing from our duvet while we slept under it so now she has to be locked in her crate.
I wouldn't give a hoot how many things she destroyed but she swallows everything.
Phoebe proofing a room would be next to impossible. She eats AND SWALLOWS carpet, plaster off the walls, skirting boards, cupboard doors, wallpaper.
When I'm asleep in bed at night, it's impossible to know what she's doing, so she's crated for her own safety. If that makes me lazy, then so be it. At least I can sleep peacefully knowing she's not killing herself.

 

As usual cognitive bias often comes into play in posts.

Most people are not abusing crates any more than any other tool, such as collars, leads, harnesses, muzzles etc.

What is a kennel or a room?

A large crate.

So it is really not about training a dog re containment .

It is all about size.

People often have an idea of the size of the crate in their own mind, but that does not always equate to the size of the crates of the user.

Where people offer the solution of either a kennel or a room they often forget that the owner may only have "one" room and/or not be able to kennel a dog in their garden due to size, expense, neighbours etc.

As always there are many solutions, but in Finland they have removed one option for the dog owner which could impact on that person owning a dog at all.

A bit like those people who believe that people in flats, without gardens, without fences etc cannot own dogs successfully.

They cannot think outside the crate (I mean box)

 

What is a kennel or a room?
A large crate.
So it is really not about training a dog re containment .
It is all about size.

Good point. Im not sure what the difference between a crate and a kennel is (indoors vs outdoors maybe??).
Crating is really my only option to keeping all my dogs. I mean I could have a pet room set up in the bedroom instead but then I would be taking a very social animal and locking it up away from the rest of its family, or it could be in a crate hanging out with the rest of us for company. Given that both my boys are very low energy, love their crates and hate being isolated I know which one seems more cruel to me. I would probably rather rehome then do that to them.
As it is they happily jump in their crates and when I let them out they just wind up snoozing in the same room anyways.....just a few feet away!

I can see why people might be concerned about misuse of crates but they are a lifesaver to some people and their pets. I really hate knee jerk reactions about things, its like banning certain dog breeds coz some people cant be trusted to look after them properly.

 

We've crate trained our puppy because I needed a safe place where he can be when I have to go out. Most of the time I can take him with us but sometimes that isn't suitable and we don't have anywhere in the house that can be puppy-proofed. He also sleeps in his crate all night, with the door locked. However the crate is in our room so if he wakes up needing a wee one of us will take him out to the garden.

I think a crate is a very valuable tool and for some dogs it works wonderfully. When Pippin is older we'll probably put the crate away and maybe only use it when we're going on holiday with him or visiting people with him so he's got a familiar place to go in.

Just now he's taken himself into his crate, curled up and gone to sleep

Any tool can be misused, I've seen people yanking their dogs while on the lead, causing them to cough and choke. Doesn't mean leads or collars should be banned because some people are stupid

 

It's a ridiculous law. It's micromanaging people enforcing that level of control. Some people choose to raise their puppies with a crate, some without. Some dogs love their crates, some hate them. Some people have their homes set up so they don't need a crate, some people have no choice but to use one for safety reasons. How is any of this anyone's business? You do what works for you and your individual dog in the most humane and fair way possible. I know some people misuse their crate but education would surely prevent this? So many mistakes are born out of ignorance not malicious intent. I'm never a fan of sweeping bans of things, especially when there is definite use for some with using a certain piece of equipment, for example a crate.

My dogs are all crate trained. They're very rarely confined in their crates except for travelling but in the past it has been extremely useful to use for certain occasions and I was so happy that I had taken the time to crate train after Ghost had his orthopaedic surgery. It was invaluable for his recovery. Arguing reasons for and against is really neither here nor there because everyone has unique dogs with individual needs and everyone's lifestyle and living situation is different and at the end of the day, we're all doing the best we can.

Incidentally my dogs love their crates and although they're rarely confined, I still have them up with the door tied open because they frequently take themselves off and all pile in the one together for a nap.