I would agree. Von Stepanitz's vision of a GSD is a far cry from what you see today. A malinois is far closer. Neither the British or Germanic types resemble them. Not seen many British ones, but have seen Elmo move. His back isn't straight, anyone who thinks otherwise should familiarise themselves with something straight edged like a ruler and have another look. Also seen the sickle hocked German dogs can't stand four square like any other dog but end up with wobbling hocks down to their confirmation. The British dogs are too long in the body and short in their legs. The first time I did my conformation and movement course with the KC and they explained the constructional requirements of an endurance trotter, much like a GSD, which Aldo requires a sharp turn of movement and burst of speed, it was quite clear how either type was constructionslly incapable of doing that. Quite unlike a malinois which is perfectly built to do that.

Have you told this to the dogs that work sheep and are winning herding competitions?

 

Have you told this to the dogs that work sheep and are winning herding competitions?

Do you mean Border Collies or when a German GSD wins best of a bad bunch?

 

Do you mean Border Collies or when a German GSD wins best of a bad bunch?

I mean the dogs at the SV Bundesleistungshüten.

2012 hutesieger sired by WGSL dog, can't find info on dam but maternal gsire is V rated in conformation so likely a dog with good conformation too.

2011 hutesieger V rated in conformation and dam is more than half show line (also V rated)

2010 hutesieger V rated and from V rated sire:

 

nope ...not true - from 1891 when the very first breed standard was written the BSD was always described as one breed with four varieties the only time when we were recognised as one breed with no varieties was back in the 90's when our own KC decided to amalgamate all four varieties - it was a complete disaster for the breed in the Uk as we could not import new dogs or take our bitches across to Europe to be mated as other countries were so outraged they effectively boycotted the new 'British' Belgian Shepherd Dog- our existing Uk gene pool was unsustainable and many breeders simply gave up and the BSD in the Uk is only now slowly recovering from that disaster.]

As a matter of FACT the Belgian Shepherd was first created, as a breed in Belgium in 1891. The breed standard was produced in 1892 and the first registrations tok place in 1910. In Belgium all four types are recognised as a single breed. The KC amalgamated the types - but still kept the single breed classification.They did indeed, recant and revert to the FCI standard of 4 types. However, other countries (Australia, New Zealand,..) recognise them as 4 breeds. In America the Groenendael and Tervuren were considered one breed.

It is obvious that despite differences some places use 'type' and some use 'breed'. That's precisely what the Alsatian Campaign want to achieve - the separation of types into breeds.

BTW - a similar situation occurs in Akitas.

Excuses excuses, you can't say wobbly hocks are only in German dogs now.

I can quite easily say that there is no evidence in that film that the dog has wobbly hocks. The only evidence is that he has been stood poorly.

Best of British? The British Sieger show isn't limited to British dogs, just as the German Sieger show isn't, so I'd say the dog that made V4 at the BSZS 2012 could be classed as "better" than the one that made V50 at his last appearance in Germany.

Totally irrelevant. The simple fact, once again, is that Elmo exhibited wobbly hocks when parading at Crufts. I've still got the video. It's a really sad example because it shows that even the supposed 'best dog' has a glaring fault.

I'm sorry, perhaps I misunderstood because I thought it was plainly obvious that his back between withers and croup IS straight.

And I suggest you rush to your optician. Or, more simply put a ruler on him. We play a game every time the Sieger supplement in the dog papers is produced where we put a ruler on the dogs' pictures and see how much of the body of the dog comes above the ruler between its withers and its croup. It can be a third of its body. Laughable.

You're going to need to pick whether or not you want to listen to Max von Stephanitz, because he seemed to think SchH was rather important. Does it matter how it's trained? What matters is the end result.

Why don't you pick on von Stephanitz's ideal dog? Why don't any of your dogs look anything like it? Simply because the big money in Martin shepherds has polluted the breed.

The UK KC has nothing to do with dogs churned out in Croatia, I have NEVER seen a dog with hocks as bad as in that video. Unfortunately no type of dog is immune to idiots.

The fact remains that the dog is bred from a Sieger line. It doesn't matter where it is. If such a disaster can be produced from one of your top dogs then you owe it to the whole of the dog world to pack up now.

So you're going to keep all the German shaped dogs that crop up to make sure they're not bred from? You know the KC can and do lift endorsements. Then you could end up with a small population of German shaped Alsatians.

What need for endorsements? People breed dogs to come as close to their idea of the standard. If dogs are produced away from the standard they they tend not to be bred from or become pets. By the same argument there are some fairly horrendous dogs produced by puppy farms under the GSD label. They aren't representative of the breed in any way - but they exist and are registered as pedigree.

That's right, you just twist my words. Are you stupid?

ROFL - No. But thanks for showing yourself up (as always happens when SV people run out of factual argument they have to resort to abuse - very sad).

Woah, hang on. What do you mean so what? So - the international shaped GSD can and does work in its original purpose. Kind of defeats your line of thought that they're all cripples due to their conformation.

On the contrary - some dogs do work sheep. Unfortunately, they are working dogs not the SV type at all.

A trotting dog needs rear drive for efficient movement.

Ridiculous. The whole issue of drive (according to the Martin brothers) was that the dog would propel itself forward by use of its back legs and just use its front ones to keep balance and direction. A trotting dog uses all 4 legs equally and the whole of the GSD gait exemplifies this. A trotting dog doesn't need 'drive'. It's a myth that was created for personal enrichment by the Martins.

Have you read the thread at all, do you honestly still believe that the type of GSD shown (and worked!!) ALL OVER THE WORLD are cripples?

If you look ALL OVER THE WORLD you will see that places where good dogs were taken after the war tend to look much more like the Alsatian types than the SV types. So, no, ALL OVER THE WORLD, they aren't cripples. But, as the Eu say and the Bateson report was quite specific about - the Banana back dogs have conformation problems. But, of course, you'd know better than them, wouldn't you?

Keep up the good work Shrap! :thumbsup: Perhaps If you say it often enough, the penny might just drop that "straight" does not mean "level" - a straight line can be at any angle.

I've always maintained exactly that. But, unlike Shrap, I maintain that straight doesn't mean curved. Nowhere have I ever said the dog's back should be level - that's in your imagination (which, of course, doesn't surprise me). The standard is clear - straight with a slight slope from withers to onset of croup. Nowhere does that say curved or level.

I don't have your experience of the breed, but I just wanted to add that I read in the dog papers last week that, in the year since independent vet checks have been carried out at championship shows, no GSD has failed.

Now, being as Albertross says that owners of the English type GSDs are throwing their toys out of the pram because their type never win, then this must mean that the Germanic type have won and have all been deemed healthy by independent vets.

It means that they have passed the vet check which actually says: "There is much controversy about the hindquarter conformation of the GSD. Principally the issue is conformational problems with cow hocks and weakness (instability) in the hind limbs when moving". Unlike the other breeds which give specific faults to find the GSD's vet check is unique in that it is so non-specific as to be worthless.

And, as a matter of fact, the English type do win - just not under Germanic type judges. And undergo exactly the same vet check.

 

Current working GSD (rated excellent, ZVV2,IPO3,SCHH/VPG1,ZPS1)

Current show GSD (2x VA1, SchH3)

top one carnt be a working dog? i aint seen sloping banana backs as working dogs yet. they both look to me show dogs.

working dogs have straighter backs.

 

Are there no GSD's with level backs anymore?

 

I mean the dogs at the SV Bundesleistungshüten.

2012 hutesieger sired by WGSL dog, can't find info on dam but maternal gsire is V rated in conformation so likely a dog with good conformation too.

2011 hutesieger V rated in conformation and dam is more than half show line (also V rated)

2010 hutesieger V rated and from V rated sire:

that dog look better than other pics i seen so far and hoping thats a look up to improving the breed to straighter backs than banana backs

 

that dog look better than other pics i seen so far and hoping thats a look up to improving the breed to straighter backs than banana backs

One thing that does make life difficult is that the curve or straightness of the back (nothing to do with 'level') is much more apparent when the dog is put into a show pose (or 'stacked'). It also seems to be a matter that whenever SV people show photos of Alsatian type dogs they pick the worst they can find (funnily enough I've never seen them drag out a photo of an Alsatian winning at a champ show, for example) but when the Alsatianists do so they go straight to the public photos of the supposed 'top dogs' - the Siegers. (This practice has led to an exhibitor at a show making a formal complaint to the Kennel Club because someone took a photo of a particular dog whilst it was being prepared for showing - not actually being shown - and then making disparaging remarks about it on Facebook.) I've seen another silly example this week of someone posting a photo on Facebook and doing the same - but the sad individual that did it a) used a photo that had to be a good 20 years old and b) was actually called out on it by other SV supporters (good for them).

Personally, I don't think it's particularly fair to comment on photos of individual dogs unless they have been judged to be good examples of the breed - mainly because there are some very poor dogs in both camps which aren't particularly representative of the breed. Dogs with CCs or those with Champion titles are supposed to be. However, it is fair to reshow video which actually shows movement as opposed to still photos which can easily be manipulated - unless those photos have been made public with the express purpose of promoting the dog or the breed. BTW the video I cited of the 'crippled' puppy was actually made as a promotion piece!

Equally, it's quite difficult to have a sensible discussion with people whose only arguments are along the lines of "One breed, one dog, one name" without offering any justification other than it's their opinion why this should be so. There are many breeds. They all originated somewhere. And some obviously are variations on previous single breeds - think Poodle (Toy, Miniature, Standard), Akita (American/Japanese) and Dachshund(Standard, Miniature). And, yet again, the Dachshund has a 3rd category, 'Rabbit', which isn't recognised in the UK or the US but is recognised in 81 other countries.

THe Alsatian Campaign is merely a continuation of this process - the dogs look different e.g. they are of a different type, so what is so particularly hard to accept about them splitting away to form a new breed?

 

Are there no GSD's with level backs anymore?

There are-my ex has one-from Poland though not England.

 

I can quite easily say that there is no evidence in that film that the dog has wobbly hocks. The only evidence is that he has been stood poorly.

Totally irrelevant. The simple fact, once again, is that Elmo exhibited wobbly hocks when parading at Crufts. I've still got the video. It's a really sad example because it shows that even the supposed 'best dog' has a glaring fault.

My point was that he's not the best of British as you stated. There are plenty of disastrously overexaggerated English Champions, just as there are overexaggerated German line Champions.

And I suggest you rush to your optician. Or, more simply put a ruler on him.

Why don't you pick on von Stephanitz's ideal dog? Why don't any of your dogs look anything like it? Simply because the big money in Martin shepherds has polluted the breed.

"Ideal dog" - You can see the difference over only a few generations between Horand and breeding for a better topline. He was a starting point. Although if that is as you believe - why don't your dogs look anything like him?
Would love to see some pics of your dogs.

The fact remains that the dog is bred from a Sieger line. It doesn't matter where it is. If such a disaster can be produced from one of your top dogs then you owe it to the whole of the dog world to pack up now.

This just shows how little you know about breeding and genetics. Certain combinations of genes can produce oversize, undersize dogs, over or under angulated. There isn't a dog that produces perfection. Those puppies weren't sired by Zamp anyway. I believe it was a Vegas grandaughter put to a Zamp son. The zamp son has produced some lovely dogs.

What need for endorsements? People breed dogs to come as close to their idea of the standard. If dogs are produced away from the standard they they tend not to be bred from or become pets. By the same argument there are some fairly horrendous dogs produced by puppy farms under the GSD label. They aren't representative of the breed in any way - but they exist and are registered as pedigree.

Surely that's how all this started?

ROFL - No. But thanks for showing yourself up (as always happens when SV people run out of factual argument they have to resort to abuse - very sad).

Not abuse, a mere question.

On the contrary - some dogs do work sheep. Unfortunately, they are working dogs not the SV type at all.

See my previous post, completely refuting this.

Ridiculous. The whole issue of drive (according to the Martin brothers) was that the dog would propel itself forward by use of its back legs and just use its front ones to keep balance and direction. A trotting dog uses all 4 legs equally and the whole of the GSD gait exemplifies this. A trotting dog doesn't need 'drive'. It's a myth that was created for personal enrichment by the Martins.

Fancy a trot off between an alsatian and GSD then?

If you look ALL OVER THE WORLD you will see that places where good dogs were taken after the war tend to look much more like the Alsatian types than the SV types. So, no, ALL OVER THE WORLD, they aren't cripples. But, as the Eu say and the Bateson report was quite specific about - the Banana back dogs have conformation problems. But, of course, you'd know better than them, wouldn't you?

Wouldn't mind an active link to exactly what conformation problems a normal, not overexaggerated German dog has.

top one carnt be a working dog? i aint seen sloping banana backs as working dogs yet. they both look to me show dogs.

working dogs have straighter backs.

Ah well, you must be right then! You should probably go and tell some of the top working kennels in the world that their dogs aren't working dogs because they have SG and V rated conformation.

Are there no GSD's with level backs anymore?

The standard does not call for a level back - why should there be? Although my boy's back is pretty much level when he's not stacked. Probably why so many people who start talking to me because they love him tell me how they hate those slope backed/banana backed dogs, or that banana backed dogs can't do agility. Then they're gobsmacked when I tell them he is a "banana back".

 

The standard does not call for a level back - why should there be? Although my boy's back is pretty much level when he's not stacked. Probably why so many people who start talking to me because they love him tell me how they hate those slope backed/banana backed dogs, or that banana backed dogs can't do agility. Then they're gobsmacked when I tell them he is a "banana back".

I really can't be bothered with all your other drivel but the difference between the two types is that your type has a curved (banana) back and the Alsaian has a straight back. I was amused to see where you think the withers ended and the croup begins on your straight line. I guess that you agree with the SV people who have told me in the past that the back only goes for about 6 inches from the withers. ROFL.

 

The standard does not call for a level back - why should there be? Although my boy's back is pretty much level when he's not stacked. Probably why so many people who start talking to me because they love him tell me how they hate those slope backed/banana backed dogs, or that banana backed dogs can't do agility. Then they're gobsmacked when I tell them he is a "banana back".

Yeah but i dont believe in this standard or that standard..these standards are all set by humans who at the end of the day do things for their own benefit..not the animals.

These slopes, bananas, curves, frog legs or whatever anyone refers to them as just simply look terrible imo. If nature didnt produce it in the canid species then it surely must be a terrible design.

As for speed..lets look at that fastest land animal on the planet..the cheetah..yeh its a cat and im not a very scientific person but it has a level back..so why would a slope or curve and those frog legs be efficient for speed?

I hope i dont come across as hating on the breed..just want more info as i really did want to have one sometime in my life.

 

I really can't be bothered with all your other drivel but the difference between the two types is that your type has a curved (banana) back and the Alsaian has a straight back. I was amused to see where you think the withers ended and the croup begins on your straight line. I guess that you agree with the SV people who have told me in the past that the back only goes for about 6 inches from the withers. ROFL.

Does that look as if the back is 6"?

I probably could have started the croup a wee bit further back and continued the back but i'm just in from a very long, bitterly cold training session and my fingers still haven't warmed up yet.

Also - the withers should be long according to the breed standard this GSD was judged to, as should the croup.

 

Yeah but i dont believe in this standard or that standard..these standards are all set by humans who at the end of the day do things for their own benefit..not the animals.

These slopes, bananas, curves, frog legs or whatever anyone refers to them as just simply look terrible imo. If nature didnt produce it in the canid species then it surely must be a terrible design.

As for speed..lets look at that fastest land animal on the planet..the cheetah..yeh its a cat and im not a very scientific person but it has a level back..so why would a slope or curve and those frog legs be efficient for speed?

I hope i dont come across as hating on the breed..just want more info as i really did want to have one sometime in my life.

German Shepherds are not sprinters. They are trotting dogs. And the breed standard has changed very little from the standard that Max v Stephanitz wrote for a working dog.

 

Yeah but i dont believe in this standard or that standard..these standards are all set by humans who at the end of the day do things for their own benefit..not the animals.

These slopes, bananas, curves, frog legs or whatever anyone refers to them as just simply look terrible imo. If nature didnt produce it in the canid species then it surely must be a terrible design.

Nature produced the human spine, and its a terrible design

As for speed..lets look at that fastest land animal on the planet..the cheetah..yeh its a cat and im not a very scientific person but it has a level back..so why would a slope or curve and those frog legs be efficient for speed?

There is FAR more to conformation than just the one part. Lower that cheetah's withers, straighten the shoulder, bend the stifle 90 degrees, bring the hocks out, and you will end up with a sloping back.
It's not just the design of the spine that determines how the back looks over all, all the other pieces have to fit in together.

 

Nature produced the human spine, and its a terrible design

There is FAR more to conformation than just the one part. Lower that cheetah's withers, straighten the shoulder, bend the stifle 90 degrees, bring the hocks out, and you will end up with a sloping back.
It's not just the design of the spine that determines how the back looks over all, all the other pieces have to fit in together.

Thats why we slip and fall in the snow! LOL crap design! But we do have a straight spine..well i always was told to keep a straight posture!

Whats the sloping back or curve for then..sorry if ive been told before.

 

Thats why we slip and fall in the snow! LOL crap design! But we do have a straight spine..well i always was told to keep a straight posture!

Whats the sloping back or curve for then..sorry if ive been told before.

Humans have a very curved spine! It's an S shape!

Different breeds have different angulation requirements depending on the job they're bred to do (or what the breed fanciers who put the standard together prefer).

I know next to nothing about GSDs but in my completely non expert opinion, it's not backs that are an issue with the breed, it's over angulated, cow-hocked, weak rear ends. I think people focus on the back because it's easier for the lay person to "see", but I'll take a banana back dog with a nice rear over a straight backed dog with a poor rear any day.
Also don't forget that GSDs are stacked differently. A lot of the dogs who look like they slope downhill would look perfectly normal if you saw them standing normally.

 

The whole idea of breeding/doctoring Dogs to enhance their breed properties is to me a bit nasty. It leads to all kinds of problems and cruel practices. A particular breed of Dog is usually pretty obvious and interfering to enhance these properties should be outlawed. My opinion FWIW.

A GSD or Alsatian is just that-why people want to mess with any Dogs final appearance by any means,just to get a cup or peice of paper is a bit sad,again my personal opinion.

Take your Dog for what it is and enjoy thier company and personality.

My own Dog is a Labradoodle,call her a crossbreed or a mongrel if that suits you. Most 'doodles are depicted with curly hair/fur,but callie came out a,well a tousle haired mess, I love her as she is.

Sorry if I seem a bit uppity about this but as Ive allraedy said,just my opinion.

eddie

 

Its what humans do we've been genetically engineering anything that came across our path since we figured out breeding a dog with good guarding instinct to another would probably create a good guard dog. People complain about conformation shows but we've been breeding dogs for our purposes since they became domesticated.

 

The whole idea of breeding/doctoring Dogs to enhance their breed properties is to me a bit nasty. It leads to all kinds of problems and cruel practices. A particular breed of Dog is usually pretty obvious and interfering to enhance these properties should be outlawed. My opinion FWIW.

A GSD or Alsatian is just that-why people want to mess with any Dogs final appearance by any means,just to get a cup or peice of paper is a bit sad,again my personal opinion.

Take your Dog for what it is and enjoy thier company and personality.

My own Dog is a Labradoodle,call her a crossbreed or a mongrel if that suits you. Most 'doodles are depicted with curly hair/fur,but callie came out a,well a tousle haired mess, I love her as she is.

Sorry if I seem a bit uppity about this but as Ive allraedy said,just my opinion.

eddie

Does your labradoodle come from 5+ generations of fully health tested dogs? Did the breeders look at the conformation of the dogs involved to make sure pups weren't going to be too straight in the rear as can be a problem with labs and some poodles? Or did they just stick 2 dogs together to cash in on the latest fashion for "healthier than pedigree" dogs.

 

German Shepherds are not sprinters. They are trotting dogs. And the breed standard has changed very little from the standard that Max v Stephanitz wrote for a working dog.

not shure where you got info from that german shepherds/alsatians are trotting dogs from eh? my dogs aint the trotting type and they like to run. when i jog with my dogs they like to lope near me. if they were designed to be trotting dogs then they be useless to the police force would they be not eh?

that video i seen of a alsatian on a working farm in germany were running not trotting and how he loped/ran covering lots of ground. trotting aint the dog's style when rounding up the sheep eh! if a dog trots then he would loose the sheep, lol!

 

Also don't forget that GSDs are stacked differently. A lot of the dogs who look like they slope downhill would look perfectly normal if you saw them standing normally.

are you saying that them dogs were forced to stand in sloping position? why? it aint there natural position and it looks bad to me. it carnt be comfortable for them dogs to stand in that way. i'd prefer to see a dog stood in the normal way like the 1925 foto of the original gsd/alsatian.

 

not shure where you got info from that german shepherds/alsatians are trotting dogs from eh? my dogs aint the trotting type and they like to run. when i jog with my dogs they like to lope near me. if they were designed to be trotting dogs then they be useless to the police force would they be not eh?

that video i seen of a alsatian on a working farm in germany were running not trotting and how he loped/ran covering lots of ground. trotting aint the dog's style when rounding up the sheep eh! if a dog trots then he would loose the sheep, lol!

She's not saying they ONLY trot. She's saying the dog is not built for quick bursts of speed then long rests rather GSDs were meant to work over a long period at a steady pace. Say like a marathon runner as opposed to a sprinter.

are you saying that them dogs were forced to stand in sloping position? why? it aint there natural position and it looks bad to me. it carnt be comfortable for them dogs to stand in that way. i'd prefer to see a dog stood in the normal way like the 1925 foto of the original gsd/alsatian.

No, not saying they're forced to stand like that, just that if you stacked a GSD like a doberman the slope would be less prominent.

 

She's not saying they ONLY trot. She's saying the dog is not built for quick bursts of speed then long rests rather GSDs were meant to work over a long period at a steady pace. Say like a marathon runner as opposed to a sprinter.

No, not saying they're forced to stand like that, just that if you stacked a GSD like a doberman the slope would be less prominent.

ah yeah more like a marathon runner i agree as are my dogs.

second dont make sence to me so why make them stand that way instead of like a dobermann eh? why not stand like the original 1925 foto eh? sorry i dont go in for frog/banana position dogs as they look terrible that way of standing. must put hell lotta of strain on there hind legs joints anyhow i do see them walking in that froggy style on the streets and i would not buy them sort no way. i would rather go for the 1925 gsd/alsatian that my working dogs are.

 

are you saying that them dogs were forced to stand in sloping position? why? it aint there natural position and it looks bad to me. it carnt be comfortable for them dogs to stand in that way. i'd prefer to see a dog stood in the normal way like the 1925 foto of the original gsd/alsatian.

It is their natural stance, my shepherd ( who was obedience lines and long coated) regularly paused in that position.