[nickarzia zeke davies]

i am all for healthy straight backed original breed that first arrived in uk as alsatians from germany via alsace. they didnt have sloping backs back then so why the sloping back gsds nowadays eh? my mate as a sloping aback shepherd and it as to be put down as it was so crippled and wobbly in his hind legs. so cruel to breed them that way.

my family have always had alsatians and i have often had them off the police as rejects due to lack of aggression. they were all healthy straight backed active alsatians and frisky lived the longest of them all to nearly 18 years of age. the rest of them lived up to 14 - 15 years. they all could jump over 6 ft fences no probabelm.

as for the colour, it don't bother me as long they're all alsatians and are healthy. i hate in breeding.

i don't like people abbrev to gsd rather than full name so why call such a grand looking breed by abbrevs than full name eh? alsatian is easier to say than a mouthful or in 3 letters like gsd. some people even say sheps and at first i think they said the dogs name then realise they mean abbrev for gsd.

in australian they have them australian cattle dogs but they call them blue or red heelers. 'cos saying acd in full is a mouthful!

 

[nickarzia zeke davies]

see the link Home

i prefer the 1925 version of the alsatian. such a real fit active happy healthy dog

 

[polishrose]

I must say I don't like the sloping curved backs shown in the pics on this thread. My ex has a gsd from Poland and her back is much straighter and then curves gently down towards the tail-I wish I had a pic of her standing up.That's what they should look like in my opinion.
Like this-if this works http://www.psy.elk.pl/zdjecia/dodane/16973_213_12265_owczarek-niemiecki.jpg

 

[Bijou]

Belgian Shepherds were originally recognised only as single breeds but have subsequently split.

nope ...not true - from 1891 when the very first breed standard was written the BSD was always described as one breed with four varieties the only time when we were recognised as one breed with no varieties was back in the 90's when our own KC decided to amalgamate all four varieties - it was a complete disaster for the breed in the Uk as we could not import new dogs or take our bitches across to Europe to be mated as other countries were so outraged they effectively boycotted the new 'British' Belgian Shepherd Dog- our existing Uk gene pool was unsustainable and many breeders simply gave up and the BSD in the Uk is only now slowly recovering from that disaster.

I think the same shrinking isolated gene pool would be true of the British Alsation and for what ...so that you can have greater show ring success ? - the price is not worth paying !

..and as an aside to my eyes both GSD 'types aare a million miles away from how te breed looked in it's early days ( and presumably when it's breed standrad was first written )

Alsation type

GSD type

Original type

in fact my own breed looks more like the original GSD did

 

[Shrap]

Lousy judge. Hocks were bad when it wasn't stacked properly. You couldn't see what they were doing on the move. OTOH search out a video of Elmo at Crufts and watch his hocks wobble. And he's supposedly the best of British. LMAO.

Excuses excuses, you can't say wobbly hocks are only in German dogs now.
Clutching at straws.
Best of British? The British Sieger show isn't limited to British dogs, just as the German Sieger show isn't, so I'd say the dog that made V4 at the BSZS 2012 could be classed as "better" than the one that made V50 at his last appearance in Germany.

Tell me what "level" has to do with anything? Which part of "straight" can't you understand? Read the following sentence "Back between withers and croup, straight, strongly developed, not too long." Where in that does it say "curved"? Where does it say "level"?

I'm sorry, perhaps I misunderstood because I thought it was plainly obvious that his back between withers and croup IS straight.

What the WUSV says (or does) or what games you play with your dogs is completely and totally irrelevant. Lets be 100% clear - Schutzhund is a sport. No more, no less. It's available to many breeds of dog and is run by the FCI who took it over from the SV. Health? Yep, that's how come the poor little puppy in that video was bred from "healthy" parents. Once again you are in denial. Not ONE of your health tests addresses conformation. Which is exactly where the KC has a problem with GSDs.

You're going to need to pick whether or not you want to listen to Max von Stephanitz, because he seemed to think SchH was rather important. Does it matter how it's trained? What matters is the end result.
The UK KC has nothing to do with dogs churned out in Croatia, I have NEVER seen a dog with hocks as bad as in that video. Unfortunately no type of dog is immune to idiots.

What happens if you get a dog that you don't think measures up to the standard? You don't breed from it! Simples.

So you're going to keep all the German shaped dogs that crop up to make sure they're not bred from? You know the KC can and do lift endorsements. Then you could end up with a small population of German shaped Alsatians.

Hmmm. If even the SV judges don't think you should breed from their top dog - what hope have you got?

That's right, you just twist my words. Are you stupid?

So, there are dogs working sheep! So what?

Woah, hang on. What do you mean so what? So - the international shaped GSD can and does work in its original purpose. Kind of defeats your line of thought that they're all cripples due to their conformation.

Some of them work as guide dogs, some as sniffer dogs, some as 'helper dogs'. Exactly what, in those jobs, requires 'drive'? Define drive. Because it's a total loss to a dog that was developed to be a trotting dog. It doesn't need 'drive'.

A trotting dog needs rear drive for efficient movement.

Surely if the breed is separated then it will only encourage people to keep breeding and showing the "German" type, therefore maintaining the conformation problems seen in the GSD today?

Have you read the thread at all, do you honestly still believe that the type of GSD shown (and worked!!) ALL OVER THE WORLD are cripples?

 

[Guest]

Gah, some of them slope down like frogs.
Can't say I've ever seen a sloped on IRL though, every one near me has straight backs.

It is not fair on the dog at all, IMO.

 

[nickarzia zeke davies]

GSD show type

GSD show type

I would not buy above two GSDs due to them sloping slide + banana backs of theres. so cruel to make them that way

Original Alsatian working type:-

Above 1925 pic is how my Alsatians were/are

Nice looking dog and would be happy to buy one of them.

amended as i dunno how to save pics and upload on here myself.

 

[Spellweaver]

I'm sorry, perhaps I misunderstood because I thought it was plainly obvious that his back between withers and croup IS straight.

Keep up the good work Shrap! :thumbsup: Perhaps If you say it often enough, the penny might just drop that "straight" does not mean "level" - a straight line can be at any angle.

Have you read the thread at all, do you honestly still believe that the type of GSD shown (and worked!!) ALL OVER THE WORLD are cripples?

I don't have your experience of the breed, but I just wanted to add that I read in the dog papers last week that, in the year since independent vet checks have been carried out at championship shows, no GSD has failed.

Now, being as Albertross says that owners of the English type GSDs are throwing their toys out of the pram because their type never win, then this must mean that the Germanic type have won and have all been deemed healthy by independent vets.

 

[Shrap]

amended as i dunno how to save pics and upload on here myself.

Current working GSD (rated excellent, ZVV2,IPO3,SCHH/VPG1,ZPS1)

Current show GSD (2x VA1, SchH3)

 

[vet-2-b]

To be OP honest it sounds like children fighting lol can't you just pull together as a group who have a common interest of the breed and do what's best for the breed not what's best for your pockets or for how many cc's you win. As a Shepard surely it is important that it herds? From your comments op you only seem to care about how the dog looks? surely splitting the breed in half you just reducing the gene pool and will just cause more issues.


I don't care how long a dog's name is it really doesn't bother me lol who care if it's 5 words long or a few letters

 

[Snoringbear]

nope ...not true - from 1891 when the very first breed standard was written the BSD was always described as one breed with four varieties the only time when we were recognised as one breed with no varieties was back in the 90's when our own KC decided to amalgamate all four varieties - it was a complete disaster for the breed in the Uk as we could not import new dogs or take our bitches across to Europe to be mated as other countries were so outraged they effectively boycotted the new 'British' Belgian Shepherd Dog- our existing Uk gene pool was unsustainable and many breeders simply gave up and the BSD in the Uk is only now slowly recovering from that disaster.

I think the same shrinking isolated gene pool would be true of the British Alsation and for what ...so that you can have greater show ring success ? - the price is not worth paying !

..and as an aside to my eyes both GSD 'types aare a million miles away from how te breed looked in it's early days ( and presumably when it's breed standrad was first written )

Alsation type

GSD type

Original type

in fact my own breed looks more like the original GSD did

I would agree. Von Stepanitz's vision of a GSD is a far cry from what you see today. A malinois is far closer. Neither the British or Germanic types resemble them. Not seen many British ones, but have seen Elmo move. His back isn't straight, anyone who thinks otherwise should familiarise themselves with something straight edged like a ruler and have another look. Also seen the sickle hocked German dogs can't stand four square like any other dog but end up with wobbling hocks down to their confirmation. The British dogs are too long in the body and short in their legs. The first time I did my conformation and movement course with the KC and they explained the constructional requirements of an endurance trotter, much like a GSD, which Aldo requires a sharp turn of movement and burst of speed, it was quite clear how either type was constructionslly incapable of doing that. Quite unlike a malinois which is perfectly built to do that.

 

[Shrap]

I would agree. Von Stepanitz's vision of a GSD is a far cry from what you see today. A malinois is far closer. Neither the British or Germanic types resemble them. Not seen many British ones, but have seen Elmo move. His back isn't straight, anyone who thinks otherwise should familiarise themselves with something straight edged like a ruler and have another look. Also seen the sickle hocked German dogs can't stand four square like any other dog but end up with wobbling hocks down to their confirmation. The British dogs are too long in the body and short in their legs. The first time I did my conformation and movement course with the KC and they explained the constructional requirements of an endurance trotter, much like a GSD, which Aldo requires a sharp turn of movement and burst of speed, it was quite clear how either type was constructionslly incapable of doing that. Quite unlike a malinois which is perfectly built to do that.

Have you told this to the dogs that work sheep and are winning herding competitions?

 

[Snoringbear]

Have you told this to the dogs that work sheep and are winning herding competitions?

Do you mean Border Collies or when a German GSD wins best of a bad bunch?

 

[Shrap]

Do you mean Border Collies or when a German GSD wins best of a bad bunch?

I mean the dogs at the SV Bundesleistungshüten.

2012 hutesieger sired by WGSL dog, can't find info on dam but maternal gsire is V rated in conformation so likely a dog with good conformation too.

2011 hutesieger V rated in conformation and dam is more than half show line (also V rated)

2010 hutesieger V rated and from V rated sire:

 

[AlbertRoss]

nope ...not true - from 1891 when the very first breed standard was written the BSD was always described as one breed with four varieties the only time when we were recognised as one breed with no varieties was back in the 90's when our own KC decided to amalgamate all four varieties - it was a complete disaster for the breed in the Uk as we could not import new dogs or take our bitches across to Europe to be mated as other countries were so outraged they effectively boycotted the new 'British' Belgian Shepherd Dog- our existing Uk gene pool was unsustainable and many breeders simply gave up and the BSD in the Uk is only now slowly recovering from that disaster.]

As a matter of FACT the Belgian Shepherd was first created, as a breed in Belgium in 1891. The breed standard was produced in 1892 and the first registrations tok place in 1910. In Belgium all four types are recognised as a single breed. The KC amalgamated the types - but still kept the single breed classification.They did indeed, recant and revert to the FCI standard of 4 types. However, other countries (Australia, New Zealand,..) recognise them as 4 breeds. In America the Groenendael and Tervuren were considered one breed.

It is obvious that despite differences some places use 'type' and some use 'breed'. That's precisely what the Alsatian Campaign want to achieve - the separation of types into breeds.

BTW - a similar situation occurs in Akitas.

Excuses excuses, you can't say wobbly hocks are only in German dogs now.

I can quite easily say that there is no evidence in that film that the dog has wobbly hocks. The only evidence is that he has been stood poorly.

Best of British? The British Sieger show isn't limited to British dogs, just as the German Sieger show isn't, so I'd say the dog that made V4 at the BSZS 2012 could be classed as "better" than the one that made V50 at his last appearance in Germany.

Totally irrelevant. The simple fact, once again, is that Elmo exhibited wobbly hocks when parading at Crufts. I've still got the video. It's a really sad example because it shows that even the supposed 'best dog' has a glaring fault.

I'm sorry, perhaps I misunderstood because I thought it was plainly obvious that his back between withers and croup IS straight.

And I suggest you rush to your optician. Or, more simply put a ruler on him. We play a game every time the Sieger supplement in the dog papers is produced where we put a ruler on the dogs' pictures and see how much of the body of the dog comes above the ruler between its withers and its croup. It can be a third of its body. Laughable.

You're going to need to pick whether or not you want to listen to Max von Stephanitz, because he seemed to think SchH was rather important. Does it matter how it's trained? What matters is the end result.

Why don't you pick on von Stephanitz's ideal dog? Why don't any of your dogs look anything like it? Simply because the big money in Martin shepherds has polluted the breed.

The UK KC has nothing to do with dogs churned out in Croatia, I have NEVER seen a dog with hocks as bad as in that video. Unfortunately no type of dog is immune to idiots.

The fact remains that the dog is bred from a Sieger line. It doesn't matter where it is. If such a disaster can be produced from one of your top dogs then you owe it to the whole of the dog world to pack up now.

So you're going to keep all the German shaped dogs that crop up to make sure they're not bred from? You know the KC can and do lift endorsements. Then you could end up with a small population of German shaped Alsatians.

What need for endorsements? People breed dogs to come as close to their idea of the standard. If dogs are produced away from the standard they they tend not to be bred from or become pets. By the same argument there are some fairly horrendous dogs produced by puppy farms under the GSD label. They aren't representative of the breed in any way - but they exist and are registered as pedigree.

That's right, you just twist my words. Are you stupid?

ROFL - No. But thanks for showing yourself up (as always happens when SV people run out of factual argument they have to resort to abuse - very sad).

Woah, hang on. What do you mean so what? So - the international shaped GSD can and does work in its original purpose. Kind of defeats your line of thought that they're all cripples due to their conformation.

On the contrary - some dogs do work sheep. Unfortunately, they are working dogs not the SV type at all.

A trotting dog needs rear drive for efficient movement.

Ridiculous. The whole issue of drive (according to the Martin brothers) was that the dog would propel itself forward by use of its back legs and just use its front ones to keep balance and direction. A trotting dog uses all 4 legs equally and the whole of the GSD gait exemplifies this. A trotting dog doesn't need 'drive'. It's a myth that was created for personal enrichment by the Martins.

Have you read the thread at all, do you honestly still believe that the type of GSD shown (and worked!!) ALL OVER THE WORLD are cripples?

If you look ALL OVER THE WORLD you will see that places where good dogs were taken after the war tend to look much more like the Alsatian types than the SV types. So, no, ALL OVER THE WORLD, they aren't cripples. But, as the Eu say and the Bateson report was quite specific about - the Banana back dogs have conformation problems. But, of course, you'd know better than them, wouldn't you?

Keep up the good work Shrap! :thumbsup: Perhaps If you say it often enough, the penny might just drop that "straight" does not mean "level" - a straight line can be at any angle.

I've always maintained exactly that. But, unlike Shrap, I maintain that straight doesn't mean curved. Nowhere have I ever said the dog's back should be level - that's in your imagination (which, of course, doesn't surprise me). The standard is clear - straight with a slight slope from withers to onset of croup. Nowhere does that say curved or level.

I don't have your experience of the breed, but I just wanted to add that I read in the dog papers last week that, in the year since independent vet checks have been carried out at championship shows, no GSD has failed.

Now, being as Albertross says that owners of the English type GSDs are throwing their toys out of the pram because their type never win, then this must mean that the Germanic type have won and have all been deemed healthy by independent vets.

It means that they have passed the vet check which actually says: "There is much controversy about the hindquarter conformation of the GSD. Principally the issue is conformational problems with cow hocks and weakness (instability) in the hind limbs when moving". Unlike the other breeds which give specific faults to find the GSD's vet check is unique in that it is so non-specific as to be worthless.

And, as a matter of fact, the English type do win - just not under Germanic type judges. And undergo exactly the same vet check.

 

[nickarzia zeke davies]

Current working GSD (rated excellent, ZVV2,IPO3,SCHH/VPG1,ZPS1)

Current show GSD (2x VA1, SchH3)

top one carnt be a working dog? i aint seen sloping banana backs as working dogs yet. they both look to me show dogs.

working dogs have straighter backs.

 

[5rivers79]

Are there no GSD's with level backs anymore?

 

[nickarzia zeke davies]

I mean the dogs at the SV Bundesleistungshüten.

2012 hutesieger sired by WGSL dog, can't find info on dam but maternal gsire is V rated in conformation so likely a dog with good conformation too.

2011 hutesieger V rated in conformation and dam is more than half show line (also V rated)

2010 hutesieger V rated and from V rated sire:

that dog look better than other pics i seen so far and hoping thats a look up to improving the breed to straighter backs than banana backs

 

[AlbertRoss]

that dog look better than other pics i seen so far and hoping thats a look up to improving the breed to straighter backs than banana backs

One thing that does make life difficult is that the curve or straightness of the back (nothing to do with 'level') is much more apparent when the dog is put into a show pose (or 'stacked'). It also seems to be a matter that whenever SV people show photos of Alsatian type dogs they pick the worst they can find (funnily enough I've never seen them drag out a photo of an Alsatian winning at a champ show, for example) but when the Alsatianists do so they go straight to the public photos of the supposed 'top dogs' - the Siegers. (This practice has led to an exhibitor at a show making a formal complaint to the Kennel Club because someone took a photo of a particular dog whilst it was being prepared for showing - not actually being shown - and then making disparaging remarks about it on Facebook.) I've seen another silly example this week of someone posting a photo on Facebook and doing the same - but the sad individual that did it a) used a photo that had to be a good 20 years old and b) was actually called out on it by other SV supporters (good for them).

Personally, I don't think it's particularly fair to comment on photos of individual dogs unless they have been judged to be good examples of the breed - mainly because there are some very poor dogs in both camps which aren't particularly representative of the breed. Dogs with CCs or those with Champion titles are supposed to be. However, it is fair to reshow video which actually shows movement as opposed to still photos which can easily be manipulated - unless those photos have been made public with the express purpose of promoting the dog or the breed. BTW the video I cited of the 'crippled' puppy was actually made as a promotion piece!

Equally, it's quite difficult to have a sensible discussion with people whose only arguments are along the lines of "One breed, one dog, one name" without offering any justification other than it's their opinion why this should be so. There are many breeds. They all originated somewhere. And some obviously are variations on previous single breeds - think Poodle (Toy, Miniature, Standard), Akita (American/Japanese) and Dachshund(Standard, Miniature). And, yet again, the Dachshund has a 3rd category, 'Rabbit', which isn't recognised in the UK or the US but is recognised in 81 other countries.

THe Alsatian Campaign is merely a continuation of this process - the dogs look different e.g. they are of a different type, so what is so particularly hard to accept about them splitting away to form a new breed?

 

[polishrose]

Are there no GSD's with level backs anymore?

There are-my ex has one-from Poland though not England.