[smokeybear]

And I assume you don't know that long haired GSDs are not recognised for KC shows in the UK and that the Swiss Shepherd isn't recognised by the KC. What the British Sieger does isn't relevant to breed recognition.

You would be right in your assumptions as there is no disqualification clause in the KC system (unlike many other) therefore you are at liberty to show a dog of ANY colour and ANY coat.

The fact that the breed standard states that white and other colours are undesirable does not prevent people showing them.

HTH

 

[ClaireandDaisy]

So is this campaign about conformation or is it about breeders of white / blue / longhaired GDS being able to win Crufts?
I don`t give a tinkers cuss about show titles - the system atm is all about fashion, not the good of the breed - although there are some rumblings of change.
Flouncing off to form a separate group will only weaken the breed IMO.

 

[WeedySeaDragon]

So is this campaign about conformation or is it about breeders of white / blue / longhaired GDS being able to win Crufts?

When I read the website my immediate thought was it seems they're doing this because they want to be able to do conformation showing with their type of GSD.

There are plenty of breeds where there are drastic differences between working types and show types with no separation into new breeds.

If it's about health then surely it would be better to try and change the breed as a whole, not just flouncing off and letting those people producing unhealthy dogs continue?

 

[shetlandlover]

I can't see how it would work tbh.

The breed shouldn't be split anyway. They are all to a certain standard you can see they are the same breed, they potentially suffer from the same conditions ect.

I don't like the name "Alsatian" either.

 

[MrRustyRead]

can someone please explain to me what it means? how will they be different? is it one straight back one slopped back ? or one black and tan and one white? so confused!

 

[AlbertRoss]

So is this campaign about conformation or is it about breeders of white / blue / longhaired GDS being able to win Crufts?
I don`t give a tinkers cuss about show titles - the system atm is all about fashion, not the good of the breed - although there are some rumblings of change.
Flouncing off to form a separate group will only weaken the breed IMO.

The facts - not conjecture - about breed health within GSDs are quite simple (and if you read the Health section on The Alsatian a fuller picture is available there).

Basically, in the 1970s the German SV club, which has always looked upon itself as the fount of all wisdom on GSDs, was run by 2 brothers. In order to enrich themselves they bred dogs which took on a different shape to the existing dog and awarded each other Championship status. The 'new' dog, which they, themselves, described as a 'Continental Shepherd' has a distinct curve in its back. However, because it is always the case that people breeding pedigree dogs want to use Champions (or Siegers, which is the equivalent) as parents the conformation of those dogs spread out through the breed. It is a recorded fact that the numbers (supposedly) sired by such dogs were in the hundreds (but it is doubtful that the actual sire was indeed the one named as the parent in many cases).

This meant that the 'older' conformation of dog was gradually dying out - except that in the UK and the USA where the breed was kept alive in its original type by breeding from dogs that had been taken from Germany after the Second World war. That type, basically, is what was known for years as the Alsatian and is usually referred to now as the 'English' type (in the UK).

A lot of people here decided that the Germans 'owned' the breed and what they decided was 'right' and so they started importing German dogs and breeding to look like the dogs the Martin brothers had produced. It is those dogs that the Kennel Club say have health problems in that their conformation is unsound. A typical example was shown on Pedigree Dogs Exposed (a clip is on the website of the Alsatian Breed Campaign website - 3rd page of the 'Campaign' section). The 'Germanic' breeders say this isn't the case and have fought the Kennel Club bitterly over the KC's efforts to improve the situation. As far as we have been able to ascertain this has not been seen in the Alsatian dog and can, therefore, be linked with the curved back. Indeed the Bateson report on dog health specifically cites "Banana back" GSDs (not my words - they are in the report).

The Germanics also argue that the English type is responsible for epilepsy within the breed by identifying one particular 'Alsatian' dog in the pedigrees of a number of dogs known to have exhibited idiomatic epilepsy. They conveniently forget to mention that the dog's grandfather was imported form Germany and was himself epileptic.

Unfortunately, the two sides are incapable of reaching common ground because neither will agree that their dogs deviate from the 'standard' which delineates the 'perfect' dog. It is also the case that the German governing body outlawed White dogs and only in the past couple of years changed their standard to accept different coat lengths. (Pale colours are deprecated because loss of colour indicates loss of hearing, which is undesirable in a working dog).

We believe that rather than weakening the breed splitting it into Alsatian and Martin Dogs would be sensible. There are precedents. Belgian Shepherds and Akitas were both originally recognised only as single breeds but have subsequently split.

 

[Superash]

You know what ? My little princess is perfect in every way (biased) but she could outdo many i' ve seen pics of for sale at the end of the day she is my pet and best friend !!!

 

[Guest]

Belgian Shepherds and Akitas were both originally recognised only as single breeds but have subsequently split.

What???
Do you have a source for this?

I'm having a hard time seeing how two breeds developed in entirely different continents could ever have been considered the same breed!

Edit, LOL NVM! I thought you were saying Belgian Shepherds and Akitas were once considered the same breed, but now I see you're saying Akitas split in to two separate breeds and Belgian Shepherds split in to Tervs etc.
Sheesh... should not post when sleep deprived!

Though I did not know there were two Akita breeds ?? Can someone clarify?

 

[WeedySeaDragon]

Though I did not know there were two Akita breeds ?? Can someone clarify?

There is the American Akita and the Japanese Akita Inu.

I can't help with regards to how, when or why they split though.

 

[5rivers79]

Without knowing anything about dog physiology.. I'm sure nature wouldn't produce a curved spine..it certainly doesn't look very healthy..

Do any wild animals have a curved spine?

 

[5rivers79]

There is the American Akita and the Japanese Akita Inu.

I can't help with regards to how, when or why they split though.

Off topic but The Japanese Inu is more in line with the original Akita used by Samurai to hunt wild game. The American Akita known for its broad face and bigger body was introduced when dog fighting was popular in Japan. It was mixed with Danes and St Bernards for the extra bulk as the original inu may not have been strong enough for the Japanese Tosa. A woman then saw one and took it to America and to cut a long story short it became the American Akita. The two different looks were still regarded as an Akita untill a KC..dont know which one decided to split the breed based on how different they look. Well that's basically what I understand it to be anyway.

Sam looks freakishly like Hachiko..the famous Akita known for his amazing loyalty.

 

[Guest]

Without knowing anything about dog physiology.. I'm sure nature wouldn't produce a curved spine..it certainly doesn't look very healthy..

Do any wild animals have a curved spine?

Many of the sighthounds come to mind as having a curved top line and none seem to be any worse for the wear.
And mother nature has certainly created huge variation among vertebrates, including many different types of curvatures.

The thing is, when looking at structure, it's not just ONE aspect of the dog's conformation that should matter, rather, how all the pieces fit together. Roached back + weak croup + cow hocks + exaggerated angulation + flat feet is not the same as a curved back with a well put together rear end.

You also have to look at the job the dog is built to do. A dog meant to run fast is going to be built much differently than a dog with a more multipurpose job.

 

[Guest]

There is the American Akita and the Japanese Akita Inu.

I can't help with regards to how, when or why they split though.

I did some digging and in the US, the AKC recognizes both as being types of the same breed. One single breed here, no split.

 

[5rivers79]

Many of the sighthounds come to mind as having a curved top line and none seem to be any worse for the wear.
And mother nature has certainly created huge variation among vertebrates, including many different types of curvatures.

The thing is, when looking at structure, it's not just ONE aspect of the dog's conformation that should matter, rather, how all the pieces fit together. Roached back + weak croup + cow hocks + exaggerated angulation + flat feet is not the same as a curved back with a well put together rear end.

You also have to look at the job the dog is built to do. A dog meant to run fast is going to be built much differently than a dog with a more multipurpose job.

I would see the GSD as multipurpose so why introduce the bent back? There's other dog for relentless speed such as the Belgian Malinois.

 

[AlbertRoss]

JFI - The situation re Akitas is complicated but serves well to illustrate the fact that a German Shepherd/Alsatian split is perfectly possible simply by reference to shape.

Some countries have split the breed into two breeds. They name them differently in different places but for simplicity here I'll call them American Akitas and Japanese Akitas. The Amnerican, Canadian and Australian Kennel Clubs say they are two 'types' of the same dog and only recognise one breed. All other nations, including the UK (and the European 'Governing Body' the FCI), say that they are different breeds.

The differences are down to size and markings - there is no genetic difference.

A similar situation is true of the Belgian Shepherd which can be considered as either 4 different types of one breed or 4 different breeds, depending on which national kennel club does the classifying.

The Alsatian Campaign argues that we have two very distinctive 'looks' of the same dog and that they should be separate breeds and that this is a paramount health issue because of the poor conformation of the 'Germanic' type of dog which is leading to major health issues.

To see what I'm talking about look here. It's an upsetting video but the dog shown has ancestry which includes the top German 'Sieger' and although this is an exaggerated case it is by no means unique.

 

[AlbertRoss]

You also have to look at the job the dog is built to do. A dog meant to run fast is going to be built much differently than a dog with a more multipurpose job.

The German Shepherd was meant to be a 'trotting' dog not a fast runner. One of the arguments put forward about the change of conformation was that it was to give the dog more 'drive'. All the veterinary evidence and opinion states this is (politely) balderdash! As a shepherd the dog was trained to trot up and down a fixed path keeping sheep in a particular area. Not to tear about.

 

[Shrap]

I used a photo in the public domain. It doesn't matter that it's a puppy - it's a typical example of what the Bateson report called "A Banana back". The very thing that the KC want vets to look at in shows. Why? because there's lots of evidence that the only type of dog that exhibits the loose hocks that exemplify "half dog, half frog" are precisely that type of dog.

Really? This is an English dog that won its class. Terrible hocks, and it's an adult

Open GSD class at Otley Canine Society Judge Ann Barker (Rikov) | Facebook

And, don't try and dodge the issue of topline - you brought it up.

Get a ruler, put it on the back of the dog you have pictured and show me, once again, where that dog is straight. As anyone can see there's a curve from withers to bum. Be absolutely clear - the standard says straight not curved. Unfortunately, it's the same old, same old with Germanic supporters. They simply can't go with facts and just rely on hopelessly outdated opinions and bias. Why is that? Could it be anything to do with the very large amounts of money involved with Germanic style dogs? Or are they just habitual deniers?

The standard that you quoted does not call for a straight topline, only a straight back, which the the dog pictured does have. If the back "falls away" from the "high, long withers" - that means it slopes from the end of the withers, and then the croup slopes again from the end of the back.

Tell me how "falling away" = keeps level??

It's been said that this campaign has frightened the Germanic supporters. Which is quite funny because it's all about leaving them alone to do their own thing with their own dogs. I think it's because they are terrified at having their dirty washing finally exhibited in public for the whole dog world to see. I may be wrong. But, we shall see.

What dirty laundry? The fact that our dogs have excellent health test results to be allowed breed? That they have to prove themselves capable of working? And that they have to complete a 20km endurance test?
We hold Koerungs in the UK, and to show a dog over 2 years of age under WUSV rules it must be Breed Surveyed, which includes passing health test results, gunshot test, and measurements with a tape measure compared to the breed standard.
Out of the over 100 comments on the debate page I've not seen any fear, only irritation at the arrogance of Alsatianists. Over a year of preparation and only 9 likes on the FB page (up to 16 today I notice )? Says a lot.

JFI - The situation re Akitas is complicated but serves well to illustrate the fact that a German Shepherd/Alsatian split is perfectly possible simply by reference to shape.

And what about what happens when you get a German shaped dog out of 2 Alsatians? It happens. Does this mean that you couldn't then cross 2 working line dogs if they are different shapes? Working breeders might have something to say about that!

The Alsatian Campaign argues that we have two very distinctive 'looks' of the same dog and that they should be separate breeds and that this is a paramount health issue because of the poor conformation of the 'Germanic' type of dog which is leading to major health issues.

To see what I'm talking about look here. It's an upsetting video but the dog shown has ancestry which includes the top German 'Sieger' and although this is an exaggerated case it is by no means unique.

If you were in fact up to date with the German side of things you might have noticed all the disgusted remarks at this video. These are the kind of puppies that countries like Croatia are churning out. An SV judge has been heard saying that you shouldn't combine Zamp and Vegas for just this reason.

The German Shepherd was meant to be a 'trotting' dog not a fast runner. One of the arguments put forward about the change of conformation was that it was to give the dog more 'drive'. All the veterinary evidence and opinion states this is (politely) balderdash! As a shepherd the dog was trained to trot up and down a fixed path keeping sheep in a particular area. Not to tear about.

Her point was that they are a trotting dog. Have you seen the drive on the dogs at the German Sieger show? I can't find the results atm but it was a WGSL dog that won the national herding comp last year I think! Many WGSL dogs are working sheep daily in Europe.

 

[AlbertRoss]

Really? This is an English dog that won its class. Terrible hocks, and it's an adult

Lousy judge. Hocks were bad when it wasn't stacked properly. You couldn't see what they were doing on the move. OTOH search out a video of Elmo at Crufts and watch his hocks wobble. And he's supposedly the best of British. LMAO.

The standard that you quoted does not call for a straight topline, only a straight back, which the the dog pictured does have. If the back "falls away" from the "high, long withers" - that means it slopes from the end of the withers, and then the croup slopes again from the end of the back.

Tell me how "falling away" = keeps level??

Tell me what "level" has to do with anything? Which part of "straight" can't you understand? Read the following sentence "Back between withers and croup, straight, strongly developed, not too long." Where in that does it say "curved"? Where does it say "level"?

What dirty laundry? The fact that our dogs have excellent health test results to be allowed breed? That they have to prove themselves capable of working? And that they have to complete a 20km endurance test?
We hold Koerungs in the UK, and to show a dog over 2 years of age under WUSV rules it must be Breed Surveyed, which includes passing health test results, gunshot test, and measurements with a tape measure compared to the breed standard.
Out of the over 100 comments on the debate page I've not seen any fear, only irritation at the arrogance of Alsatianists. Over a year of preparation and only 9 likes on the FB page (up to 16 today I notice )? Says a lot.

What the WUSV says (or does) or what games you play with your dogs is completely and totally irrelevant. Lets be 100% clear - Schutzhund is a sport. No more, no less. It's available to many breeds of dog and is run by the FCI who took it over from the SV. Health? Yep, that's how come the poor little puppy in that video was bred from "healthy" parents. Once again you are in denial. Not ONE of your health tests addresses conformation. Which is exactly where the KC has a problem with GSDs.

And what about what happens when you get a German shaped dog out of 2 Alsatians? It happens. Does this mean that you couldn't then cross 2 working line dogs if they are different shapes? Working breeders might have something to say about that!

What happens if you get a dog that you don't think measures up to the standard? You don't breed from it! Simples.

If you were in fact up to date with the German side of things you might have noticed all the disgusted remarks at this video. These are the kind of puppies that countries like Croatia are churning out. An SV judge has been heard saying that you shouldn't combine Zamp and Vegas for just this reason.

Hmmm. If even the SV judges don't think you should breed from their top dog - what hope have you got?

Her point was that they are a trotting dog. Have you seen the drive on the dogs at the German Sieger show? I can't find the results atm but it was a WGSL dog that won the national herding comp last year I think! Many WGSL dogs are working sheep daily in Europe.

So, there are dogs working sheep! So what? Some of them work as guide dogs, some as sniffer dogs, some as 'helper dogs'. Exactly what, in those jobs, requires 'drive'? Define drive. Because it's a total loss to a dog that was developed to be a trotting dog. It doesn't need 'drive'.

 

[Thorne]

Surely if the breed is separated then it will only encourage people to keep breeding and showing the "German" type, therefore maintaining the conformation problems seen in the GSD today?

 

[Nicky10]

Anyone else just think it's a case of children storming off in a huff because they're not getting their own way?

I've been looking at "old style" "alsatians" whatever they want to call themselves kennels. They seem to only hip score if they do any health testing. I even had an english type breeder tell me hip scoring was just a money making scheme from the kennel club. However bad looking some of the WGSL dogs are they're fully health tested .

Bear in mind I prefer the east european working lines I can't stand the exaggerated show dog look either but they're more ethical than most of the alsatian breeders.