Researching breeders includes visiting them. Anyone can look good on paper but only a visit prior to choosing a breeder will tell you things such as how the cats are kept and whether they look healthy etc.

When a litter is ready I try to have people come at very different times, such as one in the morning and one in the afternoon but sometimes it just isn't possible and you have to have people come at roughly the same time so they end up crossing each other. If you have a couple of litters ready at the same time it must be hard to manage all those eager new owners, some of whom like to stay and chat for hours!

Nail vanish is a common way breeders identify kittens in a litter, especially if they are all the same colour, I'm actually surprised the vet wasn't aware of this practice. However the mite and parasite load is very poor. No breeder should have an infested cattery and certainly shouldn't be selling infected kittens.

 

Hi I appreciate that breeders can have multiple cats and litters at the one time, in my personal experience with one breeder it felt like the breeder had multiple litters to cash in on the Xmas market especially combined with the condition my kitten was in. He was the only all blue kitten that was available and the breeder said that the nails had been painted by the granddaughter so nothing to do with id. I’ve attached a photo of when he was a kitten and his back paw was bare of fur and three nails were damaged these eventually fell out at the root. He had an eye infection and really bad ear mite infection which took 6-8 weeks to clear up, he was supposed to have been vet checked and vaccinated a few days before we picked him up. The set up of outdoor cages at the cattery looked ok and by looking at him you wouldn’t have necessarily picked up any issues apart from the paw which the breeder pointed out and apologised about.

All of the available kittens were playing in the one room so potentially they all had ear mites, I just felt bad for potential other owners who might have had the same experience as myself. I decided not to follow it up with the breeder as I didn’t think there would be anything to gain from it, we were going to provide the care he needed and I put I’d down to experience and something to check out for in future if I buy another cat from a breeder.

It may just have been bad luck on my part and the breeder is very good normally and for all not the quiet perfect start to owning him he is now fit and healthy and we wouldn’t be without him

 

Hi I appreciate that breeders can have multiple cats and litters at the one time, in my personal experience with one breeder it felt like the breeder had multiple litters to cash in on the Xmas market especially combined with the condition my kitten was in. He was the only all blue kitten that was available and the breeder said that the nails had been painted by the granddaughter so nothing to do with id. I've attached a photo of when he was a kitten and his back paw was bare of fur and three nails were damaged these eventually fell out at the root. He had an eye infection and really bad ear mite infection which took 6-8 weeks to clear up, he was supposed to have been vet checked and vaccinated a few days before we picked him up. The set up of outdoor cages at the cattery looked ok and by looking at him you wouldn't have necessarily picked up any issues apart from the paw which the breeder pointed out and apologised about.

All of the available kittens were playing in the one room so potentially they all had ear mites, I just felt bad for potential other owners who might have had the same experience as myself. I decided not to follow it up with the breeder as I didn't think there would be anything to gain from it, we were going to provide the care he needed and I put I'd down to experience and something to check out for in future if I buy another cat from a breeder.

It may just have been bad luck on my part and the breeder is very good normally and for all not the quiet perfect start to owning him he is now fit and healthy and we wouldn't be without him

Poor little chap, its shameful that he was allowed to live and be sold in that state. I'm very glad he's happy and well now

 

@faerienuff - what a gorgeous boy he is now!

I am shocked at your second photo of him as a kitten - in that state he looks like some of the sad, neglected rescued kittens we take in at the shelter! I am amazed a breeder would home him like that! But good for you for 'rescuing' him.

 

I completely agree with the comments about how difficult it can be to find good breeders. You would think the internet would make it easier but I’ve had Burmese cats for over 20 years and it almost seemed easier pre-internet. Breeders often either don’t have a website, or it’s out of date, or just impossible to find. Even Facebook isn’t particularly helpful.

Last year when I wanted two kittens, I looked at the cat club list but there were no kittens available in my region. I find it’s not always up to date either, with kittens still listed who have long gone. So I rang a breeder I’d had a previous kitten from and she was really helpful, she gave me a list of several other breeders and also rang two of them who had imminent kittens and ‘recommended’ me. I got one kitten from her (when we first spoke he was reserved by someone who then changed her mind) and another from one of her contacts.

I agree there is no substitute for actually visiting the breeder and seeing the set up - and meeting the cats. I have always used registered breeders, and they have all been fine - except one, when we were looking about 7 years ago. This breeder was well known on the cat show circuit but what we saw absolutely shocked me, everything we encountered was a red flag. A horrendous choking stench of cat wee. Several shockingly manky adult cats. No sign of the mother. We were ushered into a living room and the breeder brought the two kittens in, it was obviously an alien environment to them and they promptly hid and resisted handling. I wanted to leave before the kittens even arrived in the room! We said no thanks.

I can understand breeders tend to operate by word of mouth so don’t need to ‘advertise’, and once you know one or two good breeders it becomes a lot easier - but it can be difficult to break into what can seem like a closed circle.

 

@Ottery this is why I always recommend going to shows. People have busy lives and it's hard to keep websites updated, especially club websites that are run on a voluntary basis. Going to shows allows you to get the measure of the breeder and they of you.

Sorry to hear about your bad experience

 

@Rufus15
The problem is, the breeder was a regular at shows and was well thought-of by other breeders - they knew her from shows, they had never been to her house. Seeing her set up was a whole different thing to how she appeared in public. You just don't know until you actually visit! I do wonder what I would have thought if I hadn't visited good breeders in the past, would I have thought it was acceptable? Probably not, given the stench!

 

@Rufus15
The problem is, the breeder was a regular at shows and was well thought-of by other breeders - they knew her from shows, they had never been to her house. Seeing her set up was a whole different thing to how she appeared in public. You just don't know until you actually visit! I do wonder what I would have thought if I hadn't visited good breeders in the past, would I have thought it was acceptable? Probably not, given the stench!

I agree that showing isn't a guarantee of a good breeder, I was referring to your difficulty in finding a breeder

 

@Rufus15 sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

I think I came across blunter than I meant to, reading back. Apologies

 

@Rufus15 no problem.

 

The bottom line with finding a pedigree cat: There is NO guarantee. Especially if its registered with GCCF etc.
It is very simple, A GCCF or any other cat club offers NO GUARANTEES about the status or the breed of the cat.

Until the registries GCCF - TICA or whatever include DNA passports to every registered cat, then they can say - they can guarantee that particular cat is bred down these lines.

At the moment, breeders can and will abuse the system, because they hide behind the falsehood that their cats come from a particular line and they are a member of that cat registry.

The whole concept of cat registries is based on the TRUST of each individual breeder.
But until DNA registration of each cat becomes the norm, you just dont know what you are getting from a breeder.

 

The bottom line with finding a pedigree cat: There is NO guarantee. Especially if its registered with GCCF etc.
It is very simple, A GCCF or any other cat club offers NO GUARANTEES about the status or the breed of the cat.

Until the registries GCCF - TICA or whatever include DNA passports to every registered cat, then they can say - they can guarantee that particular cat is bred down these lines.

At the moment, breeders can and will abuse the system, because they hide behind the falsehood that their cats come from a particular line and they are a member of that cat registry.

The whole concept of cat registries is based on the TRUST of each individual breeder.
But until DNA registration of each cat becomes the norm, you just dont know what you are getting from a breeder.

There is no DNA test for breed.

Registration is not a guarantee, which why it's important to research the breed and research breeders.

 

I agree about doing research. The breeder ticked all the right boxes at the time. I met the mum, the dad, her house was clean. I don’t know what went wrong. But finding out there were others in my situation didn’t help.i had to nag her for Yogi’s pedigree. There’s too many problems that stacked up.

Viv xx

 

I agree about doing research. The breeder ticked all the right boxes at the time. I met the mum, the dad, her house was clean. I don't know what went wrong. But finding out there were others in my situation didn't help.i had to nag her for Yogi's pedigree. There's too many problems that stacked up.

Viv xx

I can see your problem with the breeder, it seems they didn't give much, if any, support

 

HSo I've started

Hello all
Total newbie here and maybe doing this all wrong but anyway - Hey! Thanks so much for sharing all this useful info.
So, my situ is I am planning on getting my first kitten or kittens later this year once all hols are done n dusted and I can devote time.
I work from home a lot but there will be one or two days a week I’ll need to get someone to look in. I want a chilled out cat who is affectionate but not needy. From all my research so far I favour BSH. I understand that lots of you will suggest a rescue but I used to be scared of cats ( due I’m sure to a feral cat taken in when I was a nipper) and so temperament is crucial. I appreciate all animals are individuals but I want to at least try to get a calm friendly cat and as a kitten so we can bond.
So, all the reading and research can’t really prepare you and I want to meet some bsh cats and kittens in the flesh and don’t know how or where I could do that. Any advice? My choice really does have to be right fit me and my little one xx

 

HSo I've started

Hello all
Total newbie here and maybe doing this all wrong but anyway - Hey! Thanks so much for sharing all this useful info.
So, my situ is I am planning on getting my first kitten or kittens later this year once all hols are done n dusted and I can devote time.
I work from home a lot but there will be one or two days a week I'll need to get someone to look in. I want a chilled out cat who is affectionate but not needy. From all my research so far I favour BSH. I understand that lots of you will suggest a rescue but I used to be scared of cats ( due I'm sure to a feral cat taken in when I was a nipper) and so temperament is crucial. I appreciate all animals are individuals but I want to at least try to get a calm friendly cat and as a kitten so we can bond.
So, all the reading and research can't really prepare you and I want to meet some bsh cats and kittens in the flesh and don't know how or where I could do that. Any advice? My choice really does have to be right fit me and my little one xx

Hi and welcome. Good luck in your search for the right kitten. To meet cats and kittens the best way is to visit cat shows and chat to the breeders and exhibitors. Have a look here https://www.gccfcats.org/show-calendar to find shows in your area. They usually open to the public around 12 or 1 o'clock

 

Hi all thanks for your help - I never even thought about shows! I’m based in Birmingham.

 

Hi all thanks for your help - I never even thought about shows! I'm based in Birmingham.

There's a show in Coventry next weekend, at the British Motor Museum. Why not pop along?

 

You do it like this:

 

You do it like this:
View attachment 432008

You make it look so easy! Thanks got your help - I think it's my phone screen. Cheers!

 

Thanks guys sussed it!!

 

Rufus how did your boy get on at the recent show? Hope you both had fun!

 

He did brilliantly, thank you for remembering us was very pleased with his results, he placed very well which I didn't expect so it was lovely. Very proud mama

 

Be careful of all breeders. Research better than I did! I bought a Siberian Forest cat (I have three & a Maine Coon). The woman handed me all the right papers, but was operating illegally out of her home. I didn't realize this until the day of pickup. (I had found her business online.) My cat, I believe, is inbred. The breeder had two mother cats and two adult male cats. She had many juvenile cats. They were all wandering around the inside of her home. There was no way for her to know which adults cats were interacting. My kitten (now age 8) is dumb. He is "special" in too many ways, unlike my other Siberians or any cat I've ever had.

 

but was operating illegally out of her home. I didn't realize this until the day of pickup. (I had found her business online.)

Curious what you mean by illegally breeding from home?
Anyone in this hobby calling themselves a business should be avoided.

 

She was a legal breeder of Soberians, but was operating out of her home in a deed restricted community that did not allow business to ve conducted from any home.

 

There are no laws surrounding breeding as far as I'm aware, to make it legal or illegal. Breeding, for most, is a hobby, not a business?

 

What country?

 

Possibly USA, Florida by the profile. I know many breeders in Florida, breeding from their homes like the rest of us around the world.

 

@Kaye20
Do you mean she lives in an area with a homeowners association? And any sort of business is not allowed from the home, be it soap making or kittens?
I suppose, if she is selling kittens, it is also a business, even if it is her hobby to breed cats.
Having breeding cats in the home seems typical and not necessarily cause for concern.
If you were concerned, the time to walk away was before putting down the money and taking the kitten home.

 

I appreciate that the breeder us breaking the terms of her residency and what we class as 'hobby breeding' in the UK may not be exactly the same elsewhere, however, supplying the correct paperwork is an essential part of breeding and doesn't make it a business.
Personally I think it rather irresponsible and definitely un-businesslike, to allow entire boys to have free access all over the house but a DNA test will prove the parentage.
Not being as bright as other Norwegian Forest Cats that you've had doesn't make him inbred. I have Siamese girls that were definitely behind the door when intelligence was given out.

 

https://www.registeredpets.co.uk/blog/buying-an-unregistered-kitten
Adding this link from another thread by @carolmanycats

 

good site, I like it.

 

huh thanks for the information

 

Information kindly provided by @OrientalSlave

Why buy a Registered Pedigree Kitten?
A registered kitten will be bred from two parents who are on the active register, and the female will be registered as owned by the breeder. It should be at least 13 weeks old, fully vaccinated, and ready to leave its breeder. Additionally, the GCCF will not register kittens where the parents are from sibling or parent/child matings, and if there are required health tests for the breed the parents must have had them. Note that there are additional health tests for some breeds which whilst advisable are not required by the GCCF.

In contrast BYBs are often breeding from at least one unregistered cat, or cat registered non-active. Most kittens are placed on the non-active register in the expectation that they will be neutered, and have been brought as pets only. Obviously, people breeding from these kittens have fibbed when they brought them.

BYBs may well offer a fake pedigree, and they love selling 8-week old kittens as most of the cost of rearing a kitten is after that age. At 8 weeks the kitten has not been vaccinated, may well not have been wormed, and is only just weaning. Between 8 & 13 weeks old most kittens are eating as much as an adult, use as much cat litter as an adult, and the female can be mated again PDQ.

If you add up all these costs, an unregistered 8-week old kitten for £500 will end up costing as much as a registered 13-week old kitten, more if it becomes unwell.

So how do I know my kitten is a registered pedigree? As mentioned many times on Pet Forums, a registered pedigree kitten will come with 'papers'. However, what do those papers look like? What should you receive with a registered kitten?

The answers depend on which Registry the kitten is registered with. This article covers the GCCF which is the main UK registry. There are, however, more breeders registering with FIFE and TICA which have their own rules & paperwork.

Regardless of registry, any pedigree kitten should come with a vaccination card showing two vaccinations against FPV/FHV/FCV, 3-4 weeks apart, with the first at 9 week or older (some breeders include Chlamydia and/or FeLV), a registration certificate or card, and a pedigree which is printed by the breeder for GCCF & TICA, but provided by the registry for FIFE.

GCCF
The GCCF is the main registry in the UK, and now REQUIRES that outside of exceptional circumstances, kittens do not leave the breeder until they are at least 13 weeks old and have been fully vaccinated against FPC, FHV and FCV:

"All cats and kittens must be fully vaccinated against infectious enteritis (FPV), FHV and FCV ('cat flu') at least one week prior to sale and/or leaving for a new home. Note: in the event of an emergency that requires a cat or kitten to be rehomed that is not fully vaccinated, the office should be informed as soon as possible. (Amended 17.06.2015, 21.02.2018)"

Rule 10b ii

The bare minimum you should receive with a GCCF registered kitten are:

· A signed pedigree showing at least three generations of cats with their registration and breed numbers, and the breeders name and address. Commonly the fourth generation has the breed numbers only due to space constraints when printing on A4;

· The kitten's registration card, which contains the information you need to transfer the cat or kitten into your name;

· The kitten's vaccination record - the second vaccination should have been given at least a week before you collect your kitten.

If the kitten is already microchipped one of the bar-code labels should be stuck to the vaccination card.

Hopefully you will also receive:

· A receipt;

· Details of worming and any flea treatment (not all kittens get flea treatment);

· Details of a few weeks free insurance;

· Care instructions;

· A toy or two;

· Some food the kitten is used to eating;

· A comfort blanket.

The GCCF rules only for kittens younger than 13 weeks and/or unvaccinated kittens tiin exceptional circumstances is never a good reason for the average pet buyer to buy such a kitten.

Red Flags
These apply to non-COVID times. During lockdown and various levels of social distancing, visiting may well be out of the question. If at all possible, wait until you can visit.

· Charging extra to register a kitten;

· Allowing any kitten to be registered active for a bigger price;

· Saying kittens sold as pets don't need to be registered;

· Bringing the kitten from somewhere else in the house for you to see;

· Not allowing you to visit;

· Not allowing you to see the kitten with mother and litter mates;

· Not letting you see the back garden - some apparently acceptable breeders have a back garden full of pens, though note a breeder with a stud will almost certainly have him living in a stud house in the back garden;

· Any sign of illness in any of the kittens;

· Litter trays and food dishes should be clean;

· Handing an unseen kitten over in a car park.

Many breeders do not keep a stud, so not seeing the father isn't necessarily a red flag.

What if I can't afford a registered kitten?
There is no denying that a registered kitten will cost several hundred pounds, maybe a thousand or more, depending on area and breed. However, as pointed out above, a young BYB kitten can easily cost just as much (or more) after the expenses of a few weeks' ownership, and remember that vet bills can easily exceed the cost of a registered kitten.

Additionally, buying a pet shouldn't be a spur of the moment thing, giving you time to save up both for the kitten and for a vet fund, and to look into getting a catio and/or cat-proofing your back garden. Pet Forums has a very useful (though long!) thread on this:

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/cat-runs-cat-proofed-gardens.211361/

However, if you don't want to spend £700 or more but want a cat of a specific breed, consider the breed rescues. Most GCCF breed clubs run rescues which rehome a variety of cats, including those whose owners have passed on and former breeding cats who will be much happier in a home on their own, or with a companion instead of lots of companions.

These cats will not be free but where they go from home to home rather than via a rescue pen you may only have to pay the cost of neutering, possibly vaccinations, and a donation to the rescue.

More Information
Some other sources of information are:

· The Pet Forums 'finding a pedigree cat' thread at https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/finding-a-pedigree-cat.447723/;

· The GCCF Laws & Rules: https://www.gccfcats.org/Portals/0/Rules Byelaws CoE/GCCF Byelaws 2018 February Web Edition.pdf?ver=2018-02-26-155138-573

· The GCCF Registration policy for the breed. These vary from very simple to very complicated but the important bit is any required health testing. You will find a link if you click on the photo of the breed from their Cat Breeds page:
https://www.gccfcats.org/Cat-Breeds;

· GCCF Affiliated Breed Clubs, found in the same way as the Registration Policy. These can help with finding breeders and with finding breed rescues;

· The GCCF Suspension list linked from:
https://www.gccfcats.org/About-GCCF/Suspension-List.
This is thankfully now one list (going back to 2000), with a second for the GCCFI. Note that some breeders on this have simply switched to TICA or other registries, so it's always worth checking it.

· The GCCF themselves. If you still have doubts you can ring the office who will confirm (or otherwise) that a particular cat is registered. However, they will not give any personal details out.

Example Registration Card
The Registration Card is A5 size, and is printed on good quality though lightweight, very slightly off-white card.

Without a Registration Card, a kitten is probably not registered.

Personal information has been redacted. The registration number will be 7 digits, and the UIN in the bottom right-hand corner is required to transfer ownership of the kitten to yourself. The register will usually be FULL or SUPPLEMENTARY. Very occasionally REFERENCE may be seen, but this is perfectly acceptable unless there are plans to show the kitten.

This is an example of the non-Agria style card. Some cards have Agria branding.

 

I have been a member of The International Cat Association since 2019 and as a regular participant in all events I have various privileges. I have several cats at home that I take care of. At the moment when I joined the association, I only had my cat, but over time I was given 3 more little kittens, which became members of my family. I am also provided with inexpensive and nutritious food to keep my pets. With the support of the organization and care, I can take care of my pets. Every day with them is like a holiday for me.