I said that I liked staying in touch. But I do not like a contract.

I am confused. Where would a dog be handed in and why would anyone still even have the contract or be bothered by it. I think there would only be a small number of breeders that would take the dog back anyway. Even if the intention was there at the time of breeding things change.

Why don't you like a contract?

A dog can be handed in anywhere, but when scanned, and the name of the owner and breeder comes up BOTH can be contacted, and if the owner has sold or moved the dog on, the breeder should then pick up the pieces. They chose to breed dogs, and bring *X* amount of puppies into the world, and then chose their homes. If, for whatever reason, that home turns out to be unsuitable, then the dog should be returned to the breeder for them to either keep, or find a suitable home for them. There wouldn't be any need for rescue then

 

Why don't you like a contract?

A dog can be handed in anywhere, but when scanned, and the name of the owner and breeder comes up BOTH can be contacted, and if the owner has sold or moved the dog on, the breeder should then pick up the pieces. They chose to breed dogs, and bring *X* amount of puppies into the world, and then chose their homes. If, for whatever reason, that home turns out to be unsuitable, then the dog should be returned to the breeder for them to either keep, or find a suitable home for them. There wouldn't be any need for rescue then

as of today i have completed my micro-chipping course- and any litters i go out to do i'm going to be suggesting to the breeder that they put their number as a backup... but wonder how many will agree?!

personally, the thing i love most about contracts is that it means everything you are telling the owner is written in black and white, it means they have something to read over, agree to and sign. it means that when they're at the house meeting the pups they aren't overwhelmed with cute puppies And loads of information. (i put a puppy moving guide in my packs as well to recap all the info i give them as well)

 

i have completed my micro-chipping course- and any litters i go out to do i'm going to be suggesting to the breeder that they put their number as a backup... but wonder how many will agree?!

Breeders will agree. Backyard breeders and those who produce puppies to sell? Possibly not.

 

she's looking for a really big litter, what if she has only two or three, will she keep breeding until she reaches the magic number of 13?

Large dogs tend to have larger litters, highly unlikely she'll get 13 from a first time breeding of two medium sized dogs.

Hope she doesn't get any.

But I'm glad to see people agree with my saying about microchipping

 

as of today i have completed my micro-chipping course- and any litters i go out to do i'm going to be suggesting to the breeder that they put their number as a backup... but wonder how many will agree?!

personally, the thing i love most about contracts is that it means everything you are telling the owner is written in black and white, it means they have something to read over, agree to and sign. it means that when they're at the house meeting the pups they aren't overwhelmed with cute puppies And loads of information. (i put a puppy moving guide in my packs as well to recap all the info i give them as well)

Is that available? I know petlog were bringing out the facility to register the breeder as a backup but weren't planning on implementing it until microchipping became compulsory. I would definitely use it and tried to when I had my last litter. I can't see why they can't have a breeder as the backup on their system anyway, but sadly they said no.

 

Is that available? I know petlog were bringing out the facility to register the breeder as a backup but weren't planning on implementing it until microchipping became compulsory. I would definitely use it and tried to when I had my last litter. I can't see why they can't have a breeder as the backup on their system anyway, but sadly they said no.

for now it will mostly be if they wasn't their number added in the 'work' box etc.
when it is compulsory where? it already is here :thumbup1:

 

Backyard breeders and those who produce puppies to sell? Possibly not.

People who breed dogs to sell, regardless of how many litters per year, need to be licensed. It's not commonly known though, and most local authorities don't enforce it.

 

People who breed dogs to sell, regardless of how many litters per year, need to be licensed. It's not commonly known though, and most local authorities don't enforce it.

Licensing has never worked. It was scrapped in the UK because it never worked, it's compulsory in the republic of Ireland, but not adhered to. Licensing isn't the answer, sold under contract to me is a better answer, although still not fool proof.

 

Licensing has never worked. It was scrapped in the UK because it never worked, it's compulsory in the republic of Ireland, but not adhered to. Licensing isn't the answer, sold under contract to me is a better answer, although still not fool proof.

Breeder's licences, issues by local councils, are very much still in use. It's usually a red flag not to buy a puppy from a licenced breeder. My point was that anyone who breeds dogs just to sell, even if they don't breed the usual "five litters a year or more", should be licensed as well. If this was enforced by councils, then a lot of BYBs would vanish overnight, and anyone thinking of breeding just for money would probably think twice.

 

Breeder's licences, issues by local councils, are very much still in use. It's usually a red flag not to buy a puppy from a licenced breeder. My point was that anyone who breeds dogs just to sell, even if they don't breed the usual "five litters a year or more", should be licensed as well. If this was enforced by councils, then a lot of BYBs would vanish overnight, and anyone thinking of breeding just for money would probably think twice.

But they're not working, ask anyone who buys a dog in NI, and the problem over there is at least as bad as in the UK.

 

But they're not working, ask anyone who buys a dog in NI, and the problem over there is at least as bad as in the UK.

I think you're confusing the Dog Licence (as we once had here, and they still have in NI) with Breeding Licences issued by councils....?

https://www.gov.uk/dog-breeding-licence-england-scotland-wales
Dog Breeding Licence - it mentions 5 litters or more, but also applies to anyone breeding dogs purely to sell.

 

I would not want my little pug going back to the breeder if he got lost,that breeder was going to drown him in a bucket because he was the runt and had numerous problems when he was born and would cost to much to treat him he wasn't even going to do it humanly I would rather he ended up being PTS than go back to people like that.He is micro chipped to me and wears a tag with my own and 2 of my childrens numbers on it both of whom would willingly take him in if anything happened to me

 

I would not want my rescue Lurcher going back to to the "breeder" they sold him to a family who wanted him as a present for their 4 yr olds birthday, he did what puppies do and then got shut outside, then sold on to someone else ,he cried alot in new home ,so got moved on again, then they got fed up with what was by then SA issues, so he ended up with a rescue, hes now with me ,his SA is alot better but he is a timed lad and any slight thing upsets/unsettles him and the SA comes out even more, i doubt the person who bred him who have taken him back,

 

i doubt the person who bred him who have taken him back,

I think that would sort the sheep from the goats.... ideally, any breeders who would not/could not take back dogs they bred would hopefully end up having to stop breeding so many.

And if it was a legal requirement - or at the very least, and dog could be traced back to its progenitor - it might stop breeding for "fun" or "because we wanted her to have a litter" or "It's his right to have sex".

At the moment, there is no comeback on the breeders of the (few) dogs that do attack, maim and kill - yes, some of that is probably the dog's upbringing, but in an ideal world some responsibility should rest with the person or persons who chose to breed that dog - I am sure knowledge of genetics, temperament, positive training methods and puppy socialisation programmes are not in the forefront when people choose to breed their dog with their friend's dog, or one down the road.

 

If I were a breeder, which I am not, I would be so fussy where my pups went I'd wind up keeping them all. I'd never be able to sleep at night not knowing where they were or whats happening to them.

How do these people sleep at night selling or giving a dog to the first one that comes along that wants it? Or has the price they are asking. Boggles the mind how some people will do anything for money

 

How do these people sleep at night selling or giving a dog to the first one that comes along that wants it? Or has the price they are asking. Boggles the mind how some people will do anything for money

I really don't know - but the Facebook selling pages are FULL of them.

If you need a bit of cash, then breed from your dog/cat/reptile/rodent - I don't think animals have been exploited to this degree since Victorian times.... and probably then it wasn't so bad - if your dog was stolen, you went to Club Row in Shoreditch to see if it was up for sale in the animal market there. When I lived in the area, if your bicycle got stolen, you kept an eye out for it in the market - a couple of people I knew found theirs.

 

I would love to be a breeder, but one Ronnie's too young lol and two I don't have a clue

 

I think you're confusing the Dog Licence (as we once had here, and they still have in NI) with Breeding Licences issued by councils....?

https://www.gov.uk/dog-breeding-licence-england-scotland-wales
Dog Breeding Licence - it mentions 5 litters or more, but also applies to anyone breeding dogs purely to sell.

I get what you're saying, but if they can't control anything as simple as owning dog = dog licence, how on earth would they police breeders separately? What about all these people who claim their dog got pregnant *accidentally*?

I would not want my little pug going back to the breeder if he got lost,that breeder was going to drown him in a bucket because he was the runt and had numerous problems when he was born and would cost to much to treat him he wasn't even going to do it humanly I would rather he ended up being PTS than go back to people like that.He is micro chipped to me and wears a tag with my own and 2 of my childrens numbers on it both of whom would willingly take him in if anything happened to me

I would not want my rescue Lurcher going back to to the "breeder" they sold him to a family who wanted him as a present for their 4 yr olds birthday, he did what puppies do and then got shut outside, then sold on to someone else ,he cried alot in new home ,so got moved on again, then they got fed up with what was by then SA issues, so he ended up with a rescue, hes now with me ,his SA is alot better but he is a timed lad and any slight thing upsets/unsettles him and the SA comes out even more, i doubt the person who bred him who have taken him back,

But in your cases, you aren't going to rehome your dogs in any case, and I'm sure if you were ever in the position, and *if* a theoretical contract of sale were in place and you didn't want to return the pups, that's when rescue would perhaps still have a place. For me, if I found out any of Tau's pups were to be rehomed without my consent or knowledge, I would darn well kick up a fuss and want to be involved, and if I didn't agree, I would go and get them back, buy them back if necessary. But for those who bred your dogs, I doubt if they'd give two hoots if you rehomed them onwards. That said, if they were under obligation right from the point of sale, they may think twice about the responsibility they have on them to ensure pups stay in a good home for life.

 

...if [the authorities] can't control anything as simple as owning dog = dog licence,
how on earth would they police breeders separately?

What about all these people who claim their dog got pregnant *accidentally*?

While I lived in VA Beach, neighboring Norfolk had a fantastic head of their formerly-moribund ACC,
who was involved, pro-active, & used nonstandard methods. I was deeply envious, :lol: as VB's ACC
was not only an outdated, tired, undersized physical plant, but a bog-standard shelter Admin was not
helping much; only a very-active all volunteer group of citizens in Va Beach made conditions better,
& reduced the shelter's euthanasia rate. [BTW, after i moved to Norfolk some years after Mark left for
greener pastures & better ACCs, Va Beach built a new ACC shelter for several million dollars - so their
physical plant is vastly improved, & i can only hope their policies have, too.]

One of Mark's BEST EVER ideas was to make it mandatory that anyone who bred a litter, even if they
were GIVEN away & not sold, must have a permit from the city to rear that litter, legally -
& moreover, by signing the permit application, they agreed to make their premises inspectable
for the entire duration, from the permit's purchase till the last pup or kitten departed, whether that
was a cash transaction, a giveaway, surrendered to a shelter or rescue, whatever the case.

It was a wonderfully-effective measure; many cases of underage sales, illegal interstate
transit of underage pups & kittens, poor care [spoiled food, maggot-ridden food, dirty water, exposure
to the elements, filthy cages, parasites, etc], & more, WENT TO COURT - altho in some cases,
a warning & some education sufficed to get the animals decent care & proper housing, & those cases
did not go to prosecution, they were resolved.

MANY profiteers were unconvered, & i was personally delighted to help on several occasions -
my favorite was the report from a client that when she was looking for her puppy, she went to an apt
in Norfolk where there were 2 litters that she described as "living in bunny cages", & she didn't buy
a pup there, she was very disturbed by the encounter. I reported it, she gave me the phone-number in
the advertisement, Norfolk ACC followed up, & 2 underage litters FROM NORTH CAROLINA were
confiscated, with leg & paw injuries from living on WIRE FLOORS in bunny-hutches in a living room!
:thumbup:
The pups were given vet-care, fostered in volunteer homes as litters, & later placed in screened
adoptive homes, fully recovered & doing well.

Meanwhile...
Federal charges for underage interstate USDA-violations as well as failure to obtain a city-permit,
PLUS animal-cruelty charges on the vendor... :w00t: Score! :001_tt1:

Making the premises inspectable was the crucial factor; being able to SEE where dams & litters were
kept, what they were fed, how they were housed, if the area was clean or dirty, were pups clean,
were kittens' eyes clear or full of gunk, did the babies have diarrhea, etc, etc.
It was brilliant, & i was a genuine fan of the ACC director.

 

While I lived in VA Beach, neighboring Norfolk had a fantastic head of their formerly-moribund ACC,
who was involved, pro-active, & used nonstandard methods. I was deeply envious, :lol: as VB's ACC
was not only an outdated, tired, undersized physical plant, but a bog-standard shelter Admin was not
helping much; only a very-active all volunteer group of citizens in Va Beach made conditions better,
& reduced the shelter's euthanasia rate. [BTW, after i moved to Norfolk some years after Mark left for
greener pastures & better ACCs, Va Beach built a new ACC shelter for several million dollars - so their
physical plant is vastly improved, & i can only hope their policies have, too.]

One of Mark's BEST EVER ideas was to make it mandatory that anyone who bred a litter, even if they
were GIVEN away & not sold, must have a permit from the city to rear that litter, legally -
& moreover, by signing the permit application, they agreed to make their premises inspectable
for the entire duration, from the permit's purchase till the last pup or kitten departed, whether that
was a cash transaction, a giveaway, surrendered to a shelter or rescue, whatever the case.

It was a wonderfully-effective measure; many cases of underage sales, illegal interstate
transit of underage pups & kittens, poor care [spoiled food, maggot-ridden food, dirty water, exposure
to the elements, filthy cages, parasites, etc], & more, WENT TO COURT - altho in some cases,
a warning & some education sufficed to get the animals decent care & proper housing, & those cases
did not go to prosecution, they were resolved.

MANY profiteers were unconvered, & i was personally delighted to help on several occasions -
my favorite was the report from a client that when she was looking for her puppy, she went to an apt
in Norfolk where there were 2 litters that she described as "living in bunny cages", & she didn't buy
a pup there, she was very disturbed by the encounter. I reported it, she gave me the phone-number in
the advertisement, Norfolk ACC followed up, & 2 underage litters FROM NORTH CAROLINA were
confiscated, with leg & paw injuries from living on WIRE FLOORS in bunny-hutches in a living room!
:thumbup:
The pups were given vet-care, fostered in volunteer homes as litters, & later placed in screened
adoptive homes, fully recovered & doing well.

Meanwhile...
Federal charges for underage interstate USDA-violations as well as failure to obtain a city-permit,
PLUS animal-cruelty charges on the vendor... :w00t: Score! :001_tt1:

Making the premises inspectable was the crucial factor; being able to SEE where dams & litters were
kept, what they were fed, how they were housed, if the area was clean or dirty, were pups clean,
were kittens' eyes clear or full of gunk, did the babies have diarrhea, etc, etc.
It was brilliant, & i was a genuine fan of the ACC director.

This IS brilliant - I don't know how easy it will have been to enforce, but if it helps a single pip it is worth it. I don't think that councils have the same degree of autonomy here in the UK, unfortunately.

How was it monitored? Obviously people like that lady reported 'dodgy' litters, but there must have dozens of people who just ignored the rule - did the dog rescue staff monitor adverts etc. I'm sorry - this must seem like I'm looking for difficulties, but O actually think it is an amazing idea, and would love to know how to put it into practice.

Here in UK the councils can introduce bye-laws that apply only to their own areas, and I would love to think that it could be done here - with dogs AND cats - all animals, really.

 

This IS brilliant - I don't know how easy it will have been to enforce, but if it helps a single pip it is worth it.
I don't think that councils have the same degree of autonomy here in the UK, unfortunately.

How was it monitored? Obviously people like that lady reported 'dodgy' litters, but there must have [been]
dozens of people who just ignored the rule - did the dog rescue staff monitor adverts, etc?
...this must seem like I'm looking for difficulties, but I actually think it is an amazing idea, and would love
to know how to put it into practice.

Here in UK the councils can introduce bye-laws that apply only to their own areas, and I would love to think
that it could be done here - with dogs AND cats - all animals, really.

Mostly it was simply via citizen complaints - ill-kept pups or kittens that were advertised for sale,
& the prospective buyers were sufficiently bothered to report it. NO COURT TIME was required of the
person reporting the problem; they didn't have to testify, etc, the ACOs who went to the address were
the witnesses who took care of proceedings, since the lack of permit if there was indeed a litter on
the premises, was an immediate violation.

Sometimes they conducted stings: phone the reported ad / number, pose as a buyer, get access,
then send a uniformed ACO to the door with a summons. But the difference was pretty much immediately
apparent, in the DROP in classified ads selling pups, kittens, ferrets, Guinea pigs, etc, from Norfolk #s
& Norfolk addresses - the newspaper-ads went down [which didn't make the Va'n Pilot happy, but ah, well -
ya can't please 'em all. ]

Here's a copy of the ordinance, which was simply a broadening of existing code to include ANYone
who sells or offers a 'companion animal' - in their home, on the street, at a park, in a flea-market,
out of a car-trunk in a parking lot, whoever, wherever in Norfolk city-limits:

Sec. 6.1-9.
Permits for companion pet dealers, grooming salons, pet shops, or sale of pets.

(a)
Any person operating a pet shop or grooming salon, operating as a dealer in companion animals,
or offering for sale any companion animal, is required to obtain a permit from the animal control officer
no later than January 31 of each year. The animal control officer shall inspect the facility prior to permit issuance.
Such permit will be renewable each January 31 thereafter subject to the approval of the animal control officer.
The cost for each permit will be fifty dollars ($50.00) per year.

(b)
Any person obtaining a permit pursuant to this section will be required to maintain records as specified
by the city on the application form. The animal control officer or public health officer will be allowed to inspect
any facility at which the permittee is maintaining the animals without prior notice to the permittee.
The permit shall be conspicuously displayed in an area of public view.

(c)
Applications and renewals for permits issued pursuant to this section may be denied by the animal control officer
if the applicant or permittee has demonstrated fraudulent practices, inhumane treatment of animals,
or violation of local, state or federal laws applicable to animals.
An applicant may appeal any denial for permit or renewal to the animal welfare board of review
as set forth in article VII.

(d)
A permit may be revoked after investigation and hearing by the animal control officer.
The animal control officer will serve at least five (5) days' written notice of intent to revoke a permit
on the permittee either in person or by posting of the notice to the front door of the facility where such animals
are kept. A hearing will be held within ten (10) days of service of the notice. Testimony by the serving officer
that notice was served upon the permittee or posted at the facility where the animals are maintained will
constitute prima facia evidence of proper service. A permit may be revoked for fraudulent practices, inhumane
treatment of animals, or a violation of local, state or federal laws applicable to animals.
The animal control officer will provide written reasons for any determination of revocation within five (5) days
of hearing. A permittee may appeal any decision of the animal control officer to the animal welfare board
of review as set forth in article VII.

(e)
Any companion animal dealer, pet shop, grooming salon, or person who offers for sale any companion animal
or who continues operation after revocation of their permit shall be guilty of a class 1 misdemeanor for each day
of operation after revocation.
(Ord. No. 39,717, § 2, 8-31-99; Ord. No. 42,466, § 3, 11-21-06)

 

Mostly it was simply via citizen complaints - ill-kept pups or kittens that were advertised for sale,
& the prospective buyers were sufficiently bothered to report it. NO COURT TIME was required of the
person reporting the problem; they didn't have to testify, etc, the ACOs who went to the address were
the witnesses who took care of proceedings, since the lack of permit if there was indeed a litter on
the premises, was an immediate violation.

Sometimes they conducted stings: phone the reported ad / number, pose as a buyer, get access,
then send a uniformed ACO to the door with a summons. But the difference was pretty much immediately
apparent, in the DROP in classified ads selling pups, kittens, ferrets, Guinea pigs, etc, from Norfolk #s
& Norfolk addresses - the newspaper-ads went down [which didn't make the Va'n Pilot happy, but ah, well -
ya can't please 'em all. ]

Here's a copy of the ordinance, which was simply a broadening of existing code to include ANYone
who sells or offers a 'companion animal' - in their home, on the street, at a park, in a flea-market,
out of a car-trunk in a parking lot, whoever, wherever in Norfolk city-limits:

Abso-bliddy-lutely brilliant! Thank you

 

Yes we got them checked by the vet in the view to breed them.
My dog is a spaniel her dog is a poodle.

The up to 13 puppies will go to family and friends and we both want to keep a puppy. We both would love another dog and as our dogs are getting on so well and we do believe the puppies would be of lovely temperament and character and we have so many family and friends who would love to have a dog from the union we decided to try and breed them.
This is not just a quick decision as she had two seasons since we/the dogs are friends and did not go ahead at her last season as we have not had it properly planned out (vet checks, enough homes lined up etc.)

And no neither of our dogs have been bread before as we are dog owners and lovers not "breeders" as in trying to get out as many dogs as possible of our dogs.

As you are breeding Cockapoos :

Should I breed? - Cockapoo Owners Club UK

http://www.cockapooowners-club.org.uk/health-tests.html

 

Health Tests - Cockapoo Owners Club UK

i don't know this to be a fact, but i strongly suspect the AVAR list of heritable conditions
in each parent breed [see the alphabetical list i posted above, which lists both English & (American) Cockers]
will include more items. I'll copy each & compare them, in a later post - i'm prepping for a 3-day trip.

Each number in AVAR's list after thebreed-name is a specific heritable condition; some are testable,
some can be tested for carrier / affected, others may be either un-testable as yet, or may appear later
than the advised earliest breeding-age of 24-MO / 2-YO. However, statistically speaking,
over 85% of all heritable-conditions, whether testable or not, will be symptomatic in affected dogs
by age 2, which still leaves under 15% hidden / not yet symptomatic, but it certainly helps!

Plus, delaying a first-breeding for both sexes until at least age 2 adds an average of two years
to the lifespan of the pups - an exceedingly-powerful effect, for a relatively simple & cheap option.

 

The offa.com will show you the recommended genetic testing that should be done on specific breeds. Please look into this.