[Shrap]

I can quite easily say that there is no evidence in that film that the dog has wobbly hocks. The only evidence is that he has been stood poorly.

Totally irrelevant. The simple fact, once again, is that Elmo exhibited wobbly hocks when parading at Crufts. I've still got the video. It's a really sad example because it shows that even the supposed 'best dog' has a glaring fault.

My point was that he's not the best of British as you stated. There are plenty of disastrously overexaggerated English Champions, just as there are overexaggerated German line Champions.

And I suggest you rush to your optician. Or, more simply put a ruler on him.

Why don't you pick on von Stephanitz's ideal dog? Why don't any of your dogs look anything like it? Simply because the big money in Martin shepherds has polluted the breed.

"Ideal dog" - You can see the difference over only a few generations between Horand and breeding for a better topline. He was a starting point. Although if that is as you believe - why don't your dogs look anything like him?
Would love to see some pics of your dogs.

The fact remains that the dog is bred from a Sieger line. It doesn't matter where it is. If such a disaster can be produced from one of your top dogs then you owe it to the whole of the dog world to pack up now.

This just shows how little you know about breeding and genetics. Certain combinations of genes can produce oversize, undersize dogs, over or under angulated. There isn't a dog that produces perfection. Those puppies weren't sired by Zamp anyway. I believe it was a Vegas grandaughter put to a Zamp son. The zamp son has produced some lovely dogs.

What need for endorsements? People breed dogs to come as close to their idea of the standard. If dogs are produced away from the standard they they tend not to be bred from or become pets. By the same argument there are some fairly horrendous dogs produced by puppy farms under the GSD label. They aren't representative of the breed in any way - but they exist and are registered as pedigree.

Surely that's how all this started?

ROFL - No. But thanks for showing yourself up (as always happens when SV people run out of factual argument they have to resort to abuse - very sad).

Not abuse, a mere question.

On the contrary - some dogs do work sheep. Unfortunately, they are working dogs not the SV type at all.

See my previous post, completely refuting this.

Ridiculous. The whole issue of drive (according to the Martin brothers) was that the dog would propel itself forward by use of its back legs and just use its front ones to keep balance and direction. A trotting dog uses all 4 legs equally and the whole of the GSD gait exemplifies this. A trotting dog doesn't need 'drive'. It's a myth that was created for personal enrichment by the Martins.

Fancy a trot off between an alsatian and GSD then?

If you look ALL OVER THE WORLD you will see that places where good dogs were taken after the war tend to look much more like the Alsatian types than the SV types. So, no, ALL OVER THE WORLD, they aren't cripples. But, as the Eu say and the Bateson report was quite specific about - the Banana back dogs have conformation problems. But, of course, you'd know better than them, wouldn't you?

Wouldn't mind an active link to exactly what conformation problems a normal, not overexaggerated German dog has.

top one carnt be a working dog? i aint seen sloping banana backs as working dogs yet. they both look to me show dogs.

working dogs have straighter backs.

Ah well, you must be right then! You should probably go and tell some of the top working kennels in the world that their dogs aren't working dogs because they have SG and V rated conformation.

Are there no GSD's with level backs anymore?

The standard does not call for a level back - why should there be? Although my boy's back is pretty much level when he's not stacked. Probably why so many people who start talking to me because they love him tell me how they hate those slope backed/banana backed dogs, or that banana backed dogs can't do agility. Then they're gobsmacked when I tell them he is a "banana back".

 

[AlbertRoss]

The standard does not call for a level back - why should there be? Although my boy's back is pretty much level when he's not stacked. Probably why so many people who start talking to me because they love him tell me how they hate those slope backed/banana backed dogs, or that banana backed dogs can't do agility. Then they're gobsmacked when I tell them he is a "banana back".

I really can't be bothered with all your other drivel but the difference between the two types is that your type has a curved (banana) back and the Alsaian has a straight back. I was amused to see where you think the withers ended and the croup begins on your straight line. I guess that you agree with the SV people who have told me in the past that the back only goes for about 6 inches from the withers. ROFL.

 

[5rivers79]

The standard does not call for a level back - why should there be? Although my boy's back is pretty much level when he's not stacked. Probably why so many people who start talking to me because they love him tell me how they hate those slope backed/banana backed dogs, or that banana backed dogs can't do agility. Then they're gobsmacked when I tell them he is a "banana back".

Yeah but i dont believe in this standard or that standard..these standards are all set by humans who at the end of the day do things for their own benefit..not the animals.

These slopes, bananas, curves, frog legs or whatever anyone refers to them as just simply look terrible imo. If nature didnt produce it in the canid species then it surely must be a terrible design.

As for speed..lets look at that fastest land animal on the planet..the cheetah..yeh its a cat and im not a very scientific person but it has a level back..so why would a slope or curve and those frog legs be efficient for speed?

I hope i dont come across as hating on the breed..just want more info as i really did want to have one sometime in my life.

 

[Shrap]

I really can't be bothered with all your other drivel but the difference between the two types is that your type has a curved (banana) back and the Alsaian has a straight back. I was amused to see where you think the withers ended and the croup begins on your straight line. I guess that you agree with the SV people who have told me in the past that the back only goes for about 6 inches from the withers. ROFL.

Does that look as if the back is 6"?

I probably could have started the croup a wee bit further back and continued the back but i'm just in from a very long, bitterly cold training session and my fingers still haven't warmed up yet.

Also - the withers should be long according to the breed standard this GSD was judged to, as should the croup.

 

[Shrap]

Yeah but i dont believe in this standard or that standard..these standards are all set by humans who at the end of the day do things for their own benefit..not the animals.

These slopes, bananas, curves, frog legs or whatever anyone refers to them as just simply look terrible imo. If nature didnt produce it in the canid species then it surely must be a terrible design.

As for speed..lets look at that fastest land animal on the planet..the cheetah..yeh its a cat and im not a very scientific person but it has a level back..so why would a slope or curve and those frog legs be efficient for speed?

I hope i dont come across as hating on the breed..just want more info as i really did want to have one sometime in my life.

German Shepherds are not sprinters. They are trotting dogs. And the breed standard has changed very little from the standard that Max v Stephanitz wrote for a working dog.

 

[Guest]

Yeah but i dont believe in this standard or that standard..these standards are all set by humans who at the end of the day do things for their own benefit..not the animals.

These slopes, bananas, curves, frog legs or whatever anyone refers to them as just simply look terrible imo. If nature didnt produce it in the canid species then it surely must be a terrible design.

Nature produced the human spine, and its a terrible design

As for speed..lets look at that fastest land animal on the planet..the cheetah..yeh its a cat and im not a very scientific person but it has a level back..so why would a slope or curve and those frog legs be efficient for speed?

There is FAR more to conformation than just the one part. Lower that cheetah's withers, straighten the shoulder, bend the stifle 90 degrees, bring the hocks out, and you will end up with a sloping back.
It's not just the design of the spine that determines how the back looks over all, all the other pieces have to fit in together.

 

[5rivers79]

Nature produced the human spine, and its a terrible design

There is FAR more to conformation than just the one part. Lower that cheetah's withers, straighten the shoulder, bend the stifle 90 degrees, bring the hocks out, and you will end up with a sloping back.
It's not just the design of the spine that determines how the back looks over all, all the other pieces have to fit in together.

Thats why we slip and fall in the snow! LOL crap design! But we do have a straight spine..well i always was told to keep a straight posture!

Whats the sloping back or curve for then..sorry if ive been told before.

 

[Guest]

Thats why we slip and fall in the snow! LOL crap design! But we do have a straight spine..well i always was told to keep a straight posture!

Whats the sloping back or curve for then..sorry if ive been told before.

Humans have a very curved spine! It's an S shape!

Different breeds have different angulation requirements depending on the job they're bred to do (or what the breed fanciers who put the standard together prefer).

I know next to nothing about GSDs but in my completely non expert opinion, it's not backs that are an issue with the breed, it's over angulated, cow-hocked, weak rear ends. I think people focus on the back because it's easier for the lay person to "see", but I'll take a banana back dog with a nice rear over a straight backed dog with a poor rear any day.
Also don't forget that GSDs are stacked differently. A lot of the dogs who look like they slope downhill would look perfectly normal if you saw them standing normally.

 

[Doodler]

The whole idea of breeding/doctoring Dogs to enhance their breed properties is to me a bit nasty. It leads to all kinds of problems and cruel practices. A particular breed of Dog is usually pretty obvious and interfering to enhance these properties should be outlawed. My opinion FWIW.

A GSD or Alsatian is just that-why people want to mess with any Dogs final appearance by any means,just to get a cup or peice of paper is a bit sad,again my personal opinion.

Take your Dog for what it is and enjoy thier company and personality.

My own Dog is a Labradoodle,call her a crossbreed or a mongrel if that suits you. Most 'doodles are depicted with curly hair/fur,but callie came out a,well a tousle haired mess, I love her as she is.

Sorry if I seem a bit uppity about this but as Ive allraedy said,just my opinion.

eddie

 

[Nicky10]

Its what humans do we've been genetically engineering anything that came across our path since we figured out breeding a dog with good guarding instinct to another would probably create a good guard dog. People complain about conformation shows but we've been breeding dogs for our purposes since they became domesticated.

 

[Shrap]

The whole idea of breeding/doctoring Dogs to enhance their breed properties is to me a bit nasty. It leads to all kinds of problems and cruel practices. A particular breed of Dog is usually pretty obvious and interfering to enhance these properties should be outlawed. My opinion FWIW.

A GSD or Alsatian is just that-why people want to mess with any Dogs final appearance by any means,just to get a cup or peice of paper is a bit sad,again my personal opinion.

Take your Dog for what it is and enjoy thier company and personality.

My own Dog is a Labradoodle,call her a crossbreed or a mongrel if that suits you. Most 'doodles are depicted with curly hair/fur,but callie came out a,well a tousle haired mess, I love her as she is.

Sorry if I seem a bit uppity about this but as Ive allraedy said,just my opinion.

eddie

Does your labradoodle come from 5+ generations of fully health tested dogs? Did the breeders look at the conformation of the dogs involved to make sure pups weren't going to be too straight in the rear as can be a problem with labs and some poodles? Or did they just stick 2 dogs together to cash in on the latest fashion for "healthier than pedigree" dogs.

 

[nickarzia zeke davies]

German Shepherds are not sprinters. They are trotting dogs. And the breed standard has changed very little from the standard that Max v Stephanitz wrote for a working dog.

not shure where you got info from that german shepherds/alsatians are trotting dogs from eh? my dogs aint the trotting type and they like to run. when i jog with my dogs they like to lope near me. if they were designed to be trotting dogs then they be useless to the police force would they be not eh?

that video i seen of a alsatian on a working farm in germany were running not trotting and how he loped/ran covering lots of ground. trotting aint the dog's style when rounding up the sheep eh! if a dog trots then he would loose the sheep, lol!

 

[nickarzia zeke davies]

Also don't forget that GSDs are stacked differently. A lot of the dogs who look like they slope downhill would look perfectly normal if you saw them standing normally.

are you saying that them dogs were forced to stand in sloping position? why? it aint there natural position and it looks bad to me. it carnt be comfortable for them dogs to stand in that way. i'd prefer to see a dog stood in the normal way like the 1925 foto of the original gsd/alsatian.

 

[Guest]

not shure where you got info from that german shepherds/alsatians are trotting dogs from eh? my dogs aint the trotting type and they like to run. when i jog with my dogs they like to lope near me. if they were designed to be trotting dogs then they be useless to the police force would they be not eh?

that video i seen of a alsatian on a working farm in germany were running not trotting and how he loped/ran covering lots of ground. trotting aint the dog's style when rounding up the sheep eh! if a dog trots then he would loose the sheep, lol!

She's not saying they ONLY trot. She's saying the dog is not built for quick bursts of speed then long rests rather GSDs were meant to work over a long period at a steady pace. Say like a marathon runner as opposed to a sprinter.

are you saying that them dogs were forced to stand in sloping position? why? it aint there natural position and it looks bad to me. it carnt be comfortable for them dogs to stand in that way. i'd prefer to see a dog stood in the normal way like the 1925 foto of the original gsd/alsatian.

No, not saying they're forced to stand like that, just that if you stacked a GSD like a doberman the slope would be less prominent.

 

[nickarzia zeke davies]

She's not saying they ONLY trot. She's saying the dog is not built for quick bursts of speed then long rests rather GSDs were meant to work over a long period at a steady pace. Say like a marathon runner as opposed to a sprinter.

No, not saying they're forced to stand like that, just that if you stacked a GSD like a doberman the slope would be less prominent.

ah yeah more like a marathon runner i agree as are my dogs.

second dont make sence to me so why make them stand that way instead of like a dobermann eh? why not stand like the original 1925 foto eh? sorry i dont go in for frog/banana position dogs as they look terrible that way of standing. must put hell lotta of strain on there hind legs joints anyhow i do see them walking in that froggy style on the streets and i would not buy them sort no way. i would rather go for the 1925 gsd/alsatian that my working dogs are.

 

[JulieNoob]

are you saying that them dogs were forced to stand in sloping position? why? it aint there natural position and it looks bad to me. it carnt be comfortable for them dogs to stand in that way. i'd prefer to see a dog stood in the normal way like the 1925 foto of the original gsd/alsatian.

It is their natural stance, my shepherd ( who was obedience lines and long coated) regularly paused in that position.

 

[polishrose]

It is their natural stance, my shepherd ( who was obedience lines and long coated) regularly paused in that position.

I bet your dog didn't look as frog-like as the ones posed in the show ring do.The natural stance looks different to the posed one.

 

[Shrap]

Dino says ribbit

Here is the website of the main campaigners for the split, they show pictures and talk about the kennels they would import from (US):

brightmeadowgsd.com - The American Connection

And here is an article on one of the kennels they mention as consistantly producing dogs they admire.

INSIDE THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS WORLD: ON THE SPOT - WITMER'S GERMAN SHEPHERDS

This is a dog they have already imported from Saterhaus in the States.

Sired by:

 

[AlbertRoss]

Also - the withers should be long according to the breed standard this GSD was judged to, as should the croup.

There you go again - total imagination. There is NOTHING in the KC standard which defines the length of the withers. The height is defined but nothing about the length. It's the same old smoke and mirrors. You don't meet the standard and then imagine that it fits your dogs. It should be the other way round. Of course, you can use any other standard you like (in your case the FCI one) but that isn't the standard for dogs in the UK so it doesn't matter if the dog was judged under their rules. But even then the FCI standard requires a 'straight' back. So why doesn't the dog meet that?

Could it possibly be that the FCI standard was re-written to follow the 'design' of the dog that produces so much money in Germany? (Well, yes, of course it could. In fact, it was.) When was that revision? Hmmm. 30th August 1976. Just when the Martin brothers were perverting the shape of the dog. What a coincidence.

I know next to nothing about GSDs but in my completely non expert opinion, it's not backs that are an issue with the breed, it's over angulated, cow-hocked, weak rear ends.

According to the experts who produced the report on pedigree dogs (Bateson report) and who took specific notice of cow hocked rear ends of modern GSDs the problem was prevalent in dogs that they called 'Banana backs'. Now, when the SV people can produce an expert of similar standing to refute that it will be worth listening to. Until then the opinions of those who merely want to preserve the look of the dogs they currently breed isn't worth spit.

 

[JulieNoob]

I bet your dog didn't look as frog-like as the ones posed in the show ring do.The natural stance looks different to the posed one.

No, sometimes she looked worse due to her HD and bad back
It is their natural stance though, not created from nowhere just for the ring ...