Just my opinion but the banana backed GSD's appear to suffer & look very wrong

 

No the breed should not be split.
What should happen is that Showing practices should be revised and Show Judges barred if they persist in awarding places to unfit dogs.
That`ll do it.

 

No the breed should not be split.
What should happen is that Showing practices should be revised and Show Judges barred if they persist in awarding places to unfit dogs.
That`ll do it.

Unfortunately, that means that, for example, white shepherds and long haired shepherds wouldn't be recognised. And, in their wisdom the KC's response is that they are working on creating more judges for both types. How they can square that with one standard is completely beyond me.

Creating a new breed is the only way out of a 50 year old mess. BTW - this isn't just happening in the UK. It's already underway in Germany.

 

It's a nice idea but where do all the other types fit in?
I don't see how it can work.

GSDs would encompass west german showline, west german workline, Czech and DDR workline? Meanwhile alsatians take English show plus "old English big boned straight backed long coats" and other pet breeding?

What about the half English half german dogs?

 

I don't know much about this but my instinctive reaction would be that it would cause a narrowing of the gene pool and that isn't a brilliant idea. Taking small populations (in a scientific sense) and dividing them further is going to cause bottlenecks and potential issues.

Although if the two types aren't currently being inter-bred then I suppose this is already happening.

 

Unfortunately, that means that, for example, white shepherds and long haired shepherds wouldn't be recognised. And, in their wisdom the KC's response is that they are working on creating more judges for both types. How they can square that with one standard is completely beyond me.

Creating a new breed is the only way out of a 50 year old mess. BTW - this isn't just happening in the UK. It's already underway in Germany.

White shepherds aren't shown anyway, and this isn't a problem - white boxers aren't, neither are other breeds with incorrect markings/colours.

Long and short haired dogs could be judged under the same breed standards, it's fairly common with lots of breeds.

 

Unfortunately, that means that, for example, white shepherds and long haired shepherds wouldn't be recognised..

That is a different issue.
I personally have no problem with longhaired or white GSDs since they occur naturally. I really don`t like breeding for colour or coat length as it puts cosmetics above confirmation.
I think this muddies the water.
The GSD above all is an active, intelligent dog. The colour doesn`t affect this - poor hocks/ temperament does.
Long haired GSDs can be shown. The fact they don`t do well comes down to judges again.

 

Now don't get me wrong I don't like either type the west german lines for the bent back or the english type they're too heavy and short legged and few breeders even hip score. However this is a breed with enough health issues as it is and to reduce the gene pool even more by taking the english style dogs out would cause even more issues. When even some of the working kennels will breed in show dogs why can't there be more of a crossover.

The english types can't even claim to be the original style the first gsds looked more like malinois. The standard does allow for different colours and coat types I think so they can be shown.

 

Personally, I would prefer to see breeders of both types working together for the betterment of the breed as a whole, but as that is unlikely to happen, then it wouldn't unduly concern me if the Alsatian type were to become a type in its own right. The two types are very distinct and the Alsatian type is only common to the UK in any event, so perhaps it should become the "English Alsatian" or similar.

It won't change things for many people, or even for the breed as a whole (are both types are being bred and exhibited in any event).

 

Unfortunately, that means that, for example, white shepherds and long haired shepherds wouldn't be recognised. And, in their wisdom the KC's response is that they are working on creating more judges for both types. How they can square that with one standard is completely beyond me.

Creating a new breed is the only way out of a 50 year old mess. BTW - this isn't just happening in the UK. It's already underway in Germany.

I assume you are not a breed specialist, as if you were you would know that the longhair is recognised by the WUSV and the British Sieger held Longhair classes last year.

The fanciers of White GSDs have created a new breed the Swiss Shepherd which is recognised in some countries.

No doubt some people who like blues and livers will do something with theirs.

Interestingly I have never seen an Alsation or a White GSD in the UK compete at top level in IPO etc, I wonder why?

 

It's a nice idea but where do all the other types fit in?
I don't see how it can work.

GSDs would encompass west german showline, west german workline, Czech and DDR workline? Meanwhile alsatians take English show plus "old English big boned straight backed long coats" and other pet breeding?

What about the half English half german dogs?

It was done perfectly well with Akitas. In EVERY country - except the UK - Aklitas were split by looks. The KC bucked the trend, against the wishes of all Akita clubs, by separating them by genetics. I could ask why the GSD standard doesn't allow White dogs. There's no historical reason for it and the "Swiss White", while identical to the GSD in every way other than coat colour isn't recognised here. (There again, their conformation is pretty much identical to the Alsatian type - not the SV type).

The argument is a fairly simple one - there are 2 recognisable 'types'. The health reports, endorsed by the KC and exemplified in the notes to vets looking at Best of Breed in Champ shows, specifically asks for conformation checks. The Bateson report specifically calls out "Banana backs" as having problems. Those dogs being targeted in this way are the 'Germanic' type. However, the KC stops short of taking any action because of the huge amount of money it makes from registering these dogs. Although it tried to stand up to the GSD clubs by withdrawing CCs it has, in effect, backed down. Worse, it states that it is trying to increase the judging numbers of both types. It is complete nonsense to say that two radically different looking dogs can both be judged correctly to the same standard. As a matter of fact, not conjecture, because of the way the KC promotes judges the number of Alsatian types that win GSD classes at shows will continue to decrease.

However, it is also a matter of fact that the majority of the current 'English' type of dog resembles the GSDs before they were messed up by the Martin Brothers in Germany in the 1970s. Even hardened international SV judges have said so.

There is ample opportunity for people to decide which way they would go - if they want to go with an Alsatian Breed they'll be welcomed. If they want to stay GSD that's fine.

This is simply a move to get away from the divisions in the breed, to stop the decades of silly sniping and to put both types of dog in a position where they can go forward without encroaching on the others.

 

I assume you are not a breed specialist, as if you were you would know that the longhair is recognised by the WUSV and the British Sieger held Longhair classes last year.

The fanciers of White GSDs have created a new breed the Swiss Shepherd which is recognised in some countries.

No doubt some people who like blues and livers will do something with theirs.

Interestingly I have never seen an Alsation or a White GSD in the UK compete at top level in IPO etc, I wonder why?

And I assume you don't know that long haired GSDs are not recognised for KC shows in the UK and that the Swiss Shepherd isn't recognised by the KC. What the British Sieger does isn't relevant to breed recognition.

 

This is a bit off topic...but as soon as I read it I thought "noooooooo" cos I've just spent the 2 and a half years since we got Rosie explaining to people that alsatians and GSD's are the same breed :yesnod: and how the name changed etc.

 

And I assume you don't know that long haired GSDs are not recognised for KC shows in the UK and that the Swiss Shepherd isn't recognised by the KC. What the British Sieger does isn't relevant to breed recognition.

Nothing stopping people showing long haired GSD over here.

Lack of undercoat is a fault, but so is big ears or poor front - no disqualifications in the UK.

I showed my long coat several times

 

I thought it was only changed to Alsation after the war due to the rift with Germany and only recently recognised as GSD again by the KC.

If it was originally a German breed I don't see why it shouldn't stay that way, it's a bit like calling an Alaskan Malamute a British Malamute and I really wouldn't like that!

 

It was done perfectly well with Akitas. In EVERY country - except the UK - Aklitas were split by looks. The KC bucked the trend, against the wishes of all Akita clubs, by separating them by genetics. I could ask why the GSD standard doesn't allow White dogs. There's no historical reason for it and the "Swiss White", while identical to the GSD in every way other than coat colour isn't recognised here. (There again, their conformation is pretty much identical to the Alsatian type - not the SV type).

So any "straight backed" should be alsatians and any with a correct topline should be GSD?
So for example, some working lines could be alsatians and some gsd, which leaves a problem if you want to cross lines.
No "alsatians" could be included in a breeding programme based on working ability but also wanting to follow SV rules?

The only "type" it makes sense for are the alsatians. But even then, what are they going to do when they want to import more fresh blood from USA/Canda where they are still registered as GSDs?

And I assume you don't know that long haired GSDs are not recognised for KC shows in the UK and that the Swiss Shepherd isn't recognised by the KC. What the British Sieger does isn't relevant to breed recognition.

Does the UK breed standard, or does it not, state "No hard and fast rule for length of hair"

 

So any "straight backed" should be alsatians and any with a correct topline should be GSD?

The 'correct' topline - as you well know - is defined: "The topline runs without any visible break from the set on of the neck, over the well defined withers, falling away in a straight line to the gently sloping croup". That's a correct topline - not a curve. The croup doesn't start behind the withers, although on almost every SV dog the owner would have you believe it does.

Here's one of last year's Siegers

Do tell me how ANY part of that dog's topline is straight. And, as it patently isn't straight but is most definitely curved, how can it possibly be justified as being one of the best dogs of 2012? Simple answer - it can't. But that doesn't worry the Germanic supporters because they'll argue forever that the dog has a straight back. Perhaps vouchers to the opticians ought to be awarded rather than certificates? (And, to save you looking it up the FCI standard says almost exactly the same thing, so you can't even argue that the Germans are different). :yesnod:

Does the UK breed standard, or does it not, state "No hard and fast rule for length of hair"

It certainly does. And how many long haired dogs ever grace a show ring? Hardly any. And how many win anything? Hmm. Let me see - no, I've still got 10 fingers left to count on.

 

The 'correct' topline - as you well know - is defined: "The topline runs without any visible break from the set on of the neck, over the well defined withers, falling away in a straight line to the gently sloping croup". That's a correct topline - not a curve. The croup doesn't start behind the withers, although on almost every SV dog the owner would have you believe it does.

Here's one of last year's Siegers

Seriously, the best you could do is a puppy?

How about world Sieger x2:

It certainly does. And how many long haired dogs ever grace a show ring? Hardly any. And how many win anything? Hmm. Let me see - no, I've still got 10 fingers left to count on.

A long haired GSD has qualified for Crufts. And I've run out of digits to count how many have been exhibited at open shows.

Would love to hear your views on the rest of my post about problems with importing fresh blood and splitting up the rest of the different types.

 

Seriously, the best you could do is a puppy?

How about world Sieger x2:

I used a photo in the public domain. It doesn't matter that it's a puppy - it's a typical example of what the Bateson report called "A Banana back". The very thing that the KC want vets to look at in shows. Why? because there's lots of evidence that the only type of dog that exhibits the loose hocks that exemplify "half dog, half frog" are precisely that type of dog.

And, don't try and dodge the issue of topline - you brought it up.

Get a ruler, put it on the back of the dog you have pictured and show me, once again, where that dog is straight. As anyone can see there's a curve from withers to bum. Be absolutely clear - the standard says straight not curved. Unfortunately, it's the same old, same old with Germanic supporters. They simply can't go with facts and just rely on hopelessly outdated opinions and bias. Why is that? Could it be anything to do with the very large amounts of money involved with Germanic style dogs? Or are they just habitual deniers?

It's been said that this campaign has frightened the Germanic supporters. Which is quite funny because it's all about leaving them alone to do their own thing with their own dogs. I think it's because they are terrified at having their dirty washing finally exhibited in public for the whole dog world to see. I may be wrong. But, we shall see.

 

And I assume you don't know that long haired GSDs are not recognised for KC shows in the UK and that the Swiss Shepherd isn't recognised by the KC. What the British Sieger does isn't relevant to breed recognition.

You would be right in your assumptions as there is no disqualification clause in the KC system (unlike many other) therefore you are at liberty to show a dog of ANY colour and ANY coat.

The fact that the breed standard states that white and other colours are undesirable does not prevent people showing them.

HTH

 

So is this campaign about conformation or is it about breeders of white / blue / longhaired GDS being able to win Crufts?
I don`t give a tinkers cuss about show titles - the system atm is all about fashion, not the good of the breed - although there are some rumblings of change.
Flouncing off to form a separate group will only weaken the breed IMO.

 

So is this campaign about conformation or is it about breeders of white / blue / longhaired GDS being able to win Crufts?

When I read the website my immediate thought was it seems they're doing this because they want to be able to do conformation showing with their type of GSD.

There are plenty of breeds where there are drastic differences between working types and show types with no separation into new breeds.

If it's about health then surely it would be better to try and change the breed as a whole, not just flouncing off and letting those people producing unhealthy dogs continue?

 

I can't see how it would work tbh.

The breed shouldn't be split anyway. They are all to a certain standard you can see they are the same breed, they potentially suffer from the same conditions ect.

I don't like the name "Alsatian" either.

 

can someone please explain to me what it means? how will they be different? is it one straight back one slopped back ? or one black and tan and one white? so confused!

 

So is this campaign about conformation or is it about breeders of white / blue / longhaired GDS being able to win Crufts?
I don`t give a tinkers cuss about show titles - the system atm is all about fashion, not the good of the breed - although there are some rumblings of change.
Flouncing off to form a separate group will only weaken the breed IMO.

The facts - not conjecture - about breed health within GSDs are quite simple (and if you read the Health section on The Alsatian a fuller picture is available there).

Basically, in the 1970s the German SV club, which has always looked upon itself as the fount of all wisdom on GSDs, was run by 2 brothers. In order to enrich themselves they bred dogs which took on a different shape to the existing dog and awarded each other Championship status. The 'new' dog, which they, themselves, described as a 'Continental Shepherd' has a distinct curve in its back. However, because it is always the case that people breeding pedigree dogs want to use Champions (or Siegers, which is the equivalent) as parents the conformation of those dogs spread out through the breed. It is a recorded fact that the numbers (supposedly) sired by such dogs were in the hundreds (but it is doubtful that the actual sire was indeed the one named as the parent in many cases).

This meant that the 'older' conformation of dog was gradually dying out - except that in the UK and the USA where the breed was kept alive in its original type by breeding from dogs that had been taken from Germany after the Second World war. That type, basically, is what was known for years as the Alsatian and is usually referred to now as the 'English' type (in the UK).

A lot of people here decided that the Germans 'owned' the breed and what they decided was 'right' and so they started importing German dogs and breeding to look like the dogs the Martin brothers had produced. It is those dogs that the Kennel Club say have health problems in that their conformation is unsound. A typical example was shown on Pedigree Dogs Exposed (a clip is on the website of the Alsatian Breed Campaign website - 3rd page of the 'Campaign' section). The 'Germanic' breeders say this isn't the case and have fought the Kennel Club bitterly over the KC's efforts to improve the situation. As far as we have been able to ascertain this has not been seen in the Alsatian dog and can, therefore, be linked with the curved back. Indeed the Bateson report on dog health specifically cites "Banana back" GSDs (not my words - they are in the report).

The Germanics also argue that the English type is responsible for epilepsy within the breed by identifying one particular 'Alsatian' dog in the pedigrees of a number of dogs known to have exhibited idiomatic epilepsy. They conveniently forget to mention that the dog's grandfather was imported form Germany and was himself epileptic.

Unfortunately, the two sides are incapable of reaching common ground because neither will agree that their dogs deviate from the 'standard' which delineates the 'perfect' dog. It is also the case that the German governing body outlawed White dogs and only in the past couple of years changed their standard to accept different coat lengths. (Pale colours are deprecated because loss of colour indicates loss of hearing, which is undesirable in a working dog).

We believe that rather than weakening the breed splitting it into Alsatian and Martin Dogs would be sensible. There are precedents. Belgian Shepherds and Akitas were both originally recognised only as single breeds but have subsequently split.