I have a picture of the mother of Alaska. I didn't see papers, no. I do have their phone numbers though, so I may ask if I could get more information on that. I'll attach Alaska's mother's picture.

 

They are very sweet colour point Moggies. It is false advertising to sell them as Siamese without papers although many back yard breeders do.

Rescues are full of Moggies needing good homes, you are just adding to the problem by not doing it properly. I don't believe you can't get hold of a breeding registered queen if your dad was a Siamese breeder. It's not that difficult or impossible although you may have to put some work in.

What you are doing is immoral in my opinion.

 

They are very sweet colour point Moggies. It is false advertising to sell them as Siamese without papers although many back yard breeders do.

Rescues are full of Moggies needing good homes, you are just adding to the problem by not doing it properly. I don't believe you can't get hold of a breeding registered queen if your dad was a Siamese breeder. It's not that difficult or impossible although you may have to put some work in.

What you are doing is immoral in my opinion.

I think you have confused me with the OP!
My dad was a siamese breeder, but unless I have missed a post, I don't think the OP's dad was.

 

It isn't my dad who was the breeder - that was Sparkle's. And of course we are both entitled to our own opinions. I respect yours. I have worked out an planned this out carefully. I also would not be against spaying and neutering them if this does not work out. I also have no intention of lying to people - I will let them know I cannot prove they are pure breds. I won't be forging papers or something stupid!

 

This is about Julia and nothing about Canadian Siamese kittens. Sorry. The cinnamon lines were shunned because of the overstampings 'may carry longhair' (from the sorrel abyssinian used to investigate 'red' abys) and the 'may carry recessive white' (from Maureen Silson's desire to investigate recessive whites.)

When Julia acquired Red Fred, she wanted to remove the longhair overstamping from her cats and she offered him to others to do the same. Then she concentrated on promoting the Angoras (now called Oriental Longhairs) because she preferred to blaze a trail and leave others to work on type.

She encouraged breeders to mate their orientals to remove the recessive white overstamping which is easy to do but there are still cats overstamped. Some have not been cleared but some should have had the overstamping removed but apparently the GCCF office has no clue about it. (If she were still here, she would soon sort them out!)

 

I think you have confused me with the OP!
My dad was a siamese breeder, but unless I have missed a post, I don't think the OP's dad was.

Oopsiedoo!

 

Alaska's mother is very beautiful, no doubt about that.

I still feel that the coat is wrong, however, putting that aside, a bigger concern for me that I was thinking about last night, is Alaska has very obviously thick, rather long hair.

This is not typical for a Siamese.
Although a long coated variant of Siamese (Balinese) does exist, the gene for short coat is dominant to long coat.
Long coated Siamese kittens are rarely thrown because of this, in order to have long hair both parents must either carry the gene for it or one needs to actually be longhair themself.
Any breeding cats that throw longcoats would be removed from a breeding programme by the overwhelming majority of Siamese breeders.

I find it concerning that both of your kittens are exhibiting the same coat type, I actually wonder, if the father of Alaska or Kiera has been used at stud by other backyard breeders without your knowledge.
If so, it is plausible that your cats are half siblings.

I also wonder, if the parents of Alaska and / or Kiera have produced kittens before.
If so, I wonder if a breeder bought one of those kittens to add to their breeding programme and either Alaska or Kiera was one of the results.

As you are adamant on breeding them, I would actually suggest DNA testing them first as I find it odd that two kittens from different parents would both have the same coat type so untypical of the breed.

 

It isn't my dad who was the breeder - that was Sparkle's. And of course we are both entitled to our own opinions. I respect yours. I have worked out an planned this out carefully. I also would not be against spaying and neutering them if this does not work out. I also have no intention of lying to people - I will let them know I cannot prove they are pure breds. I won't be forging papers or something stupid!

How can you have worked this out and planned it carefully, it's totally random.

How much are you going to sell these moggies for? Are you expecting to make money?

 

Alaska's mother is definitely not a longhair but she does have a shaggy coat. I am afraid thicker coats do appear even on show Siamese lines and should be penalised but sometimes breeders (and judges) have different priorities. Sometimes in this country, they are attempting to breed cats whose ears grow out of their neck rather than their head.

If Azura is happy breeding pet cats that look like hers, a shaggy coat is not a problem and can look beautiful. The only worthwhile DNA test would be for PRA. There could be any number of anomalies in the kittens but we have to recognise that these things happen in pedigree cats as well. However careful you are you can never be sure that you will not have problems.

(By the way, to breed a longhair cat both parents must pass on a longhair gene to the offspring.)

 

That is a great suggestion - thank-you! I will ask my vet about the DNA testing when they get older. As far as pricing, I don't know for sure yet. I'm sure it will somewhat depend what the expenses end up being and what the majority sell them for - unregistered I mean. I do not want to charge too low as I have found at least with rescues that people are much more willing to care for them when they have to pay.

 

Alaska's mother is definitely not a longhair but she does have a shaggy coat. I am afraid thicker coats do appear even on show Siamese lines and should be penalised but sometimes breeders (and judges) have different priorities. Sometimes in this country, they are attempting to breed cats whose ears grow out of their neck rather than their head.

If Azura is happy breeding pet cats that look like hers, a shaggy coat is not a problem and can look beautiful. The only worthwhile DNA test would be for PRA. There could be any number of anomalies in the kittens but we have to recognise that these things happen in pedigree cats as well. However careful you are you can never be sure that you will not have problems.

(By the way, to breed a longhair cat both parents must pass on a longhair gene to the offspring.)

I am suggesting DNA because although a thicker coat may crop up, I do not believe it to be a regular occurance and do find it concerning that both kittens would express it and both be from unpapered parents.
A DNA test, if positive would tell you that they are indeed related and therefore you can avoid causing serious problems by inbreeding.
If it's negative, then great!

P.S. I am aware that both cats must pass the gene which is why I said that both must either carry the gene or one must actually express the gene. I didn't make it clear however that the other parent would indeed need to carry otherwise the shorthair gene would just cancel out the longhair gene from the long haired cat.

 

That is a great suggestion - thank-you! I will ask my vet about the DNA testing when they get older. As far as pricing, I don't know for sure yet. I'm sure it will somewhat depend what the expenses end up being and what the majority sell them for - unregistered I mean. I do not want to charge too low as I have found at least with rescues that people are much more willing to care for them when they have to pay.

I can assure you now, that if you are hoping for a profit, your unlikely to get one.
It's more of a hobby.

To put it in perspective, if you are doing to this properly, you are going to have to shell out for the DNA PRA test, I would advise a DNA test for parentage as well, veterinary exams for both breeding cats, vaccinations, wormer, flea treatment and early neutering for the kittens, 13 weeks worth of food and cat litter, equipment in case it goes wrong - feeding bottles, heat pads, kitten replacer milk, feeding tubes, syringes and spare cash in case it goes wrong for the queen and she needs a c section.
Bare in mind, that in the UK at least, insurance will not cover anything breeding related so if something goes wrong your on your own.

In the UK a unregistered kitten typically goes for £300 or less.

I would also greatly disagree that people who pay more are likely to be better owners.
I don't think you can judge a caring owner based on their wages.

 

Absolutely I don't judge them just on what they can pay! But I have had people want rescue kittens brought directly to their door, with lots of supplies, spayed, vaccinated, dewormed and FREE! I get that a lot. So sometimes people who pay for kittens are more willing to spend money on their care.

And yes, if I did ever make any money it would go right back into the cats.

 

Most people in our area are looking for a beautiful, well raised and socialized, healthy, happy kitten. Their first concern isn't always the papers.

byb's do thrive on people not doing their research on getting a 'pure bred' cat.

Regarding price, you really couldn't charge more than rescues do for their moggies which barely covers the cost of neuter, microchip, vaccination and vet check.
Though I highly doubt you'll be advertising these kittens as moggies.

There's no need to wait for any DNA testing, UC Davis in the USA is the lab I use for my cats, and kittens can be tested pretty much from birth.

 

Well, I disagree on pricing - most people will pay for Siamese kittens, and they don't always or often even want papers. No I won't advertise them as moggies - it is a disparaging term in my opinion for cats that can be just as wonderful if not more so than purebreds. However, I will let people know I don't have proof the parents are pure and will not be forging papers as some do.

I already have people that would like kittens from the litter when they are born and they are very responsible people.

 

But they aren't siamese.
Even if they did look like genuine Siamese, without prove of lineage, they are colourpoint domestic shorthairs. Or Moggies.

It isn't often I agree with SpottyCats but they are spot on, pardon the pun, in in this instance.
If you look at this entirely honestly, taking the fact that you have already paid for the cats and the fact that you have always wanted to breed and have everything planned out away, ask yourself if it really is ethical to breed, and then to charge a higher price for a litter of kittens that you don't have proof are purebred, so whether you like it or not are classed as Moggies, or domestic shorthairs if you dislike that term.

Hundreds, if not thousands are produced like them every year, I would have thought that if you were involved in rescue you would know just how many cats and kittens find themselves homeless, and how many, sadly, are euthanised for lack of homes.

I can't understand why you would want to do this.
You say you want to get into registered breeding, when these cats are mated, word will get round that you producing and selling unregistered cats, you will then find it absolutely impossible to get into registered breeding as no good breeder will touch you, word will get around.

Just because a cat looks like a purebred, it doesn't mean they are.
I think my kitten looks identical to a Tuxedo pattern American Shorthair, would that make it okay to breed her and sell her kittens as 'American shorthairs - no papers'?
No.
Because I have no proof of her pedigree, she might be American shorthair, but it is far far FAR more likely that she is just your run of the mill, good ol' black and white mixed breed moggy.

 

Well, I disagree on pricing - most people will pay for Siamese kittens, and they don't always or often even want papers. No I won't advertise them as moggies - it is a disparaging term in my opinion for cats that can be just as wonderful if not more so than purebreds. However, I will let people know I don't have proof the parents are pure and will not be forging papers as some do.

I don't agree with you breeding these cats. But this takes the biscuit
You really should not advertise these cats as Siamese. Because they are not.
Yes people will pay good money for a pedigree Siamese kitten. And quite rightly will expect documentary evidence of their pedigree to justify the price paid.
Your kittens look absolutely nothing like a Siamese and I'd be surprised if anyone would fork out in excess of £100 per kitten which would leave you hugely out of pocket.
Aside from the money it just seems morally wrong to me

 

I think that we have all said enough that the OP would have changed her mind had there be any possibility she would. And of course she will advertise the kittens as Siamese. I just don't understand your logic, Azura. I can in a way understand BYB - if you go into breeding for the profit, then of course BYB is the way to go (no health tests, no shows, no registry membership, no vet charges), however horrible it is. But you seem like a reasonable person, you speak about health tests and say how much you love and care for your kittens etc, you want good homes for them, I really am just very confused why not start proper breeding?

 

I think that we have all said enough that the OP would have changed her mind had there be any possibility she would. And of course she will advertise the kittens as Siamese. I just don't understand your logic, Azura. I can in a way understand BYB - if you go into breeding for the profit, then of course BYB is the way to go (no health tests, no shows, no registry membership, no vet charges), however horrible it is. But you seem like a reasonable person, you speak about health tests and say how much you love and care for your kittens etc, you want good homes for them, I really am just very confused why not start proper breeding?

That is also my question, WHY not do it properly...? Doesn't make any sense, unless money is the object of the reason, no papers/byb don't do anything with their kittens, they just bred and sell and earn ££. Genuine breeders that do EVERYTHING possible properly, don't even break even, but that's the point, its classed a 'hobby', hobbies cost money, bringing a life into the world is more than just buying 2 cats and putting them together

 

How old are the kittens in these photos?

 

I think the op's kittens are what we call Thai cats in the uk

Meow - Siamese Kittens Michigan

 

The GCCF Thai cats are lilac & blue-pointed Korats.

 

Zachary Apollo won in 1982:

http://www.siamese-cat-breeder.co.uk/siamese-cats/siamese-cat-picture-gallery/

Oh wow... was just reading this thread (thinking it may have kitten pics..) and then saw this link.

Never knew our tonks great great granddad Zachery Apollo was a siamese. I mean I knew they had Siamese in there pedigrees - but I'd never been able to track down Zachery Apollo before (and the breed numbers on the pedigree hadn't meant anything to me!) What a stunner - thank you!

 

He was beautiful. Any cats with a 24 or 32 breed number are Siamese.

 

I think the op's kittens are what we call Thai cats in the uk

TICA has the Thai breed....if the cats are registered of course.