From what I know of dog behavior Rio is forcing Archie into submission. She's showing her dominance and forming a hierarchy that Archie will need to fit into. In a way its discipline, but keep an eye on it because if Archie starts to rebel and get a bit too above his station it might turn into a bit of a fight. I hope this helps

 

Thank you, this is a new behavior to me so I'll definitely keep an eye on it

 

I'm still getting to grips with having two dogs and I was wondering if this is ok behavior?

Whenever Archer (9 weeks) is running around or jumping at Rio (3 years) she holds his muzzle in her mouth until he rolls onto his back.

It happens if I'm loving on her and he approaches too, leaves me to grab his muzzle then returns for pets once hes on his back.

There's no growling, he sometimes gives a little yelp but seems unfazed by it unless hes running and she chases him down to do it.

We were playing in the garden yesterday, Archer was chasing me and Rio ran after him at one point, knocked him over with a muzzle grab and then left him alone when he yelped.

Shes still coming around to idea of him being here so I'm trying not to intervene to much but I'm not sure about the muzzle bites. Why would she do it when he was chasing me and she was on the other side of the garden?

Is she disciplining him or bulling him and should I let her continue to do it?

Does she put her jaws around his muzzle but not fully close her mouth or bite down? If she does its called an inhibited bite, they do it to other body parts sometimes its a way of disciplining without actually hurting them, especially if she does it when he jumps on her or runs at her, shes likely giving him boudaries and telling him its not going to be tolerated. Shes probably worked out that if she doesnt hes going to be a pain in the rear.

He rolls on his back as its submissive behaviour more or less to say Ok ive got the message thats enough.Which from what you say she then walks away point made thats the end of it?

Pups learn bite inhibition in the litter from Mum and litter mates, if one pup bites another too hard in play the one thats bitten yelps, Mum also disciplines when they bite to hard too, probably much like shes doing. If a pups learned bite inhibition then when the other yelps they should stop, which sounds like what shes doing when he rolls on his back or gives a yelp she stops? Thats why he probably yelps too to make her stop it sounds like his learned it with his litter mates and from Mum, which he should have done, some dont though and persistenly carry on regardless if they havent.

If they are being a pain the older dog will often growl, and if thats ignored may show teeth, and if thats ignored or they are being a pain air snap and even lunge and chase them off. It often depends on how full of themselves the pup is and if they are persistent as to how far the older dog goes. The way she seems to have chosen is the inhibited bite holding his muzzle.

Sounds to me like shes just giving him boundaries and letting him know what she will put up with and what she wont. As long as he isnt fazed or scared, shes not taking it any further and he is taking heed and shes stopping then I wouldnt panic. You will probably find once she is satisfied he has enough boundaries in place and he has learnt his manners it will stop and you will start to notice her being more tolerant, probably when his well behaved he will be allowed to spend time with her and lay with her more, and then eventually she will play with him but at her invitation and she will finish it when shes decided its time to call a halt. Thats the way it usually pans out anway.

 

Thanks Sled Dog, she always goes for his muzzle without biting down and stops when he submits but it can happen a lot throughout the day.

I noticed she catches up with him if hes running around to do it to him and if shes getting affection from me and he walks towards us she'll repeatedly do it until he walks away.

We've had no other problems when it comes to toys (they are always separate for food) and they sleep together but the muzzle grabs happen quite a lot.

Hopefully she'll grow more tolerant of him as he gets older, so far her warnings have been very fair and he always takes heed so this is the only behavior that has concerned me.

 

...she... goes for his muzzle w/o biting down, & stops when he submits - but it can [be many times],
throughout the day.

that she stops when he rolls over is good - but if she's doing it excessively, she's brow-beating the pup.

This i don't like:

[she'll chase him down] if he [runs] around to [muzzle-grab] him...

i really don't like her consistently chasing him down when he gets the zoomies - that's overbearing,
IMO. Pups should be allowed to play, so long as they aren't being rude - is she a herding breed?
this FUN POLICE behavior is common in BCs, Aussies, Corgis, & similar types.

i like this even less!...

if she's getting affection from me & he walks toward us, she'll repeatedly
[muzzle-grab] until he walks away.

it's hard to say from the description, but it does have hallmarks that concern me. :huh: He should be
allowed to approach U, even if she's being petted at the time - so long as he's not intrusive [doesn't
jump on her, shove his face into her face, push between U & the older dog, etc].

could U video this chase-away habit, so we can see it?

We've had no... problems re toys (they're always separated for [meals]) & they sleep together,
but the muzzle grabs happen quite a lot.

when U say, "sleep together" - does that mean they sleep at the same time [common & normal],
or that they share a crate?

Sharing the same limited physical space to sleep is not a good idea; pups can be very pesty,
there's even "obnoxious active submission" when pups with an OCD streak persist in licking a dog's
muzzle so incessantly, the adult-dog or older pup could be forgiven for murdering them - altho
of course, we don't literally want that to happen! :eek6: giving the dog AND the pup a break from one another,
especially to sleep, is best.

Crates should always be single-occupant; the sole exception is a dam & her litter of neonates.
Even then, mum needs regular breaks from the demands of the babies, & to eat, drink, & void,
go for walks, get some personal attn, etc.

 

I completely agree with leashedforlife!

If she is occasionally muzzling him when he gets in her face and pester her, I would let her as it teaches him his boundaries around her.

I would never ever let her chase him down though and feel she can muzzle him while they are both with me or while one is recieving affection, it's up to me who enters my space not her and It's my job to discipline my pup not her.

My sisters two min pins are a bit funny. The oldest hates dogs in her space yet, when she is on my lap, I can invite any dog over with no reaction from her. exactly what i would expect but If she is on my sister she won't allow it. Pure lack of leadership.

Her other one is a 10 month pup who can be annoying at the best of times! Rossi gets fairly frustrated around this kind of energy and would definitely bully her given the chance. I accept no correction from him and make sure I'm there to discipline her if she gets in his face.

 

My old collie was exactly the same. She taught all the pups manners and once she had them trained she would play with them. I really miss her its much harder work without her

 

To clarify they sleep in their own crates at night but he sometimes joins her on one of the downstairs beds during the day and she doesn't mind him snuggling in. She is a GSD so the fun police could definitely describe her.

She was a lot more persistent with the muzzle grabs today and I do feel its going beyond a normal correction to overbearing bullying.

I'm seriously lacking leadership skills when it comes to Rio, I thought I was doing well but the puppy has really shown me how much she doesn't respect me or feels like she can claim me.

How to I get that leadership back? I know the dominance thing has been discredited but how do I tell her I'm the one who sets the rules for her and the pup?

Feel quite down about it all today

 

To clarify they sleep in their own crates at night but he sometimes joins her on one of the downstairs beds during the day and she doesn't mind him snuggling in. She is a GSD so the fun police could definitely describe her.

She was a lot more persistent with the muzzle grabs today and I do feel its going beyond a normal correction to overbearing bullying.

I'm seriously lacking leadership skills when it comes to Rio, I thought I was doing well but the puppy has really shown me how much she doesn't respect me or feels like she can claim me.

How to I get that leadership back? I know the dominance thing has been discredited but how do I tell her I'm the one who sets the rules for her and the pup?

Feel quite down about it all today

If she is still doing it or doing it more then ever, even after he stops and takes heed when he is being a pain to her then I would say she is taking it too far now at least at times. They will often discipline pups especially if they start to bug them to give them boundaries at first, but it usually stops once those boundaries are established and the pups shown some good manners and take heed when they have pushed a bit too far.

Its good that she is accepting him laying with her and cuddling up together during the day its the way I would like to see it progress, and I wouldnt worry if she told him off when he was a bit too full of himself of bugging her,here and there.
but if she is doing it all the time for no apparent reason thats another thing entirely.

To show leader ship you dont have to do the dominance thing as in alpha rolls or anything else as seen on TV. The only thing I do with this wayward lot if they lack self control at times to control the situation and regain order is through training in all honestly. Ive found through training, teaching them commands for various things and being consistent thats all you really need.

Do you do any training with her on a very regular basis, thats often the best way to get them to focus and listen and work for you, then when you have the commands in place you can use them to control situations in everyday occurances more. Does she have to work for anything she wants from you or you give her? Thats also another good way usually too, that they do something in return for what they want or you give them in everyday sitations. Most dogs are just opportunists anyway and if they can get away with it they will, unless taught different.

I wouldnt get despondent about the two of them, she isnt doing anything bad or going to seriously hurt him as such just going a bit over the top with it when its sometimes really not needed and uncalled for.

I

 

...they sleep [solo] in their own crates at night, but he sometimes joins her on one of the downstairs beds
during the day, & she doesn't mind him snuggling in.

oh, good! :thumbsup: thanks for that, it really cleared up that detail.

She's a GSD... the fun-police could definitely describe her.

bummer.

She was a lot more persistent with the muzzle grabs today; I do feel it's... beyond a normal
[infrequent, short] correction, to overbearing bullying.

I'm seriously lacking leadership skills... I thought I was doing well, but the [situation with the] pup
has really shown me how much she doesn't respect me, or feels like she can claim me.

WHOA! Don't panic, this isn't that awful - it just requires Mgmt, vs letting the dogs do their thing.
U can do this - it's not rocket-surgery, it's just being consistent & stopping things U don't want,
while rewarding things U do want. :yesnod:

...the dominance thing has been discredited, but how do I tell her that I'm the one who sets
the rules, for her and the pup?

U don't tell her - U just do it.

Put a drag-line on her, & every doggone time she goes to chase the pup down, STEP on the end, pick it up,
& bring her in, hand-over-hand; don't say a word, just do it. As soon as she reaches U, ask for a SIT, praise
& reward, drop the cord... [meanwhile, the pup continues his zoomies, undisturbed.] lather, rinse, repeat -
indefinitely, till she stops harassing him. Remember, U aren't calling her to U, U simply use the drag
to bring her in, without any comment or scolding / verbal / angry body-language, nada.

over & over & over & over &... :laugh: She'll get it. :thumbsup:

 

If she is still doing it or doing it more then ever, even after he stops and takes heed when he is being a pain to her then I would say she is taking it too far now at least at times. They will often discipline pups especially if they start to bug them to give them boundaries at first, but it usually stops once those boundaries are established and the pups shown some good manners and take heed when they have pushed a bit too far.

Its good that she is accepting him laying with her and cuddling up together during the day its the way I would like to see it progress, and I wouldnt worry if she told him off when he was a bit too full of himself of bugging her,here and there.
but if she is doing it all the time for no apparent reason thats another thing entirely.

To show leader ship you dont have to do the dominance thing as in alpha rolls or anything else as seen on TV. The only thing I do with this wayward lot if they lack self control at times to control the situation and regain order is through training in all honestly. Ive found through training, teaching them commands for various things and being consistent thats all you really need.

Do you do any training with her on a very regular basis, thats often the best way to get them to focus and listen and work for you, then when you have the commands in place you can use them to control situations in everyday occurances more. Does she have to work for anything she wants from you or you give her? Thats also another good way usually too, that they do something in return for what they want or you give them in everyday sitations. Most dogs are just opportunists anyway and if they can get away with it they will, unless taught different.

I wouldnt get despondent about the two of them, she isnt doing anything bad or going to seriously hurt him as such just going a bit over the top with it when its sometimes really not needed and uncalled for.

I

She was a lot rougher with him today and more overbearing which is what makes me think its escalating.

She muzzle grabbed him as I made a cup of tea every time he came into the kitchen which is not acceptable, I feel shes trying to claim the space around me at all times and that's not fair.

I do train her every day but she was probably a bit spoiled being an only dog for 3 years. I will go back to using NILIF and train her more consistently from now on.

I think I'm just fearful that Archer will become dog aggressive if he gets bullied too much or a fight will break out between them as he gets older and less submissive.

We have puppy classes next week and Rio will be starting agility so hopefully this will give us more structure and Archer can meet a few pups his own age.

 

oh, good! :thumbsup: thanks for that, it really cleared up that detail.

bummer.

WHOA! Don't panic, this isn't that awful - it just requires Mgmt, vs letting the dogs do their thing.
U can do this - it's not rocket-surgery, it's just being consistent & stopping things U don't want,
while rewarding things U do want. :yesnod:

U don't tell her - U just do it.

Put a drag-line on her, & every doggone time she goes to chase the pup down, STEP on the end, pick it up,
& bring her in, hand-over-hand; don't say a word, just do it. As soon as she reaches U, ask for a SIT, praise
& reward, drop the cord... [meanwhile, the pup continues his zoomies, undisturbed.] lather, rinse, repeat -
indefinitely, till she stops harassing him. Remember, U aren't calling her to U, U simply use the drag
to bring her in, without any comment or scolding / verbal / angry body-language, nada.

over & over & over & over &... :laugh: She'll get it. :thumbsup:

Sorry I only saw your reply after I posted

Thank you for the tip of the long line and the encouraging words, I know my brain is going into panic mode but I really want to get this right!

I will start tomorrow on a more positive note and start reinforcing the behaviors I want while redirecting the behaviors I don't

 

I will start tomorrow on a more positive note & start reinforcing the behaviors I want,
while redirecting the behaviors I don't

CLICK. :thumbsup: Good on ya!

manage to prevent, redirect to interrupt, & reward to encourage repetition.

See KikoPup, anything she does is safe & effective;
"the positive interruptor" clip teaches a happy "wait, do something else..." cue
How to stop unwanted behavior- the positive interrupter- dog training clicker training - YouTube

 

She was a lot rougher with him today and more overbearing which is what makes me think its escalating.

She muzzle grabbed him as I made a cup of tea every time he came into the kitchen which is not acceptable, I feel shes trying to claim the space around me at all times and that's not fair.

I do train her every day but she was probably a bit spoiled being an only dog for 3 years. I will go back to using NILIF and train her more consistently from now on.

I think I'm just fearful that Archer will become dog aggressive if he gets bullied too much or a fight will break out between them as he gets older and less submissive.

We have puppy classes next week and Rio will be starting agility so hopefully this will give us more structure and Archer can meet a few pups his own age.

They do displacement sometimes, stop the others getting to things and blocking their way. My old girl whos 15 is a devil for it, she will lay in the doorway for example if Im in the living room and they are in the hall and the others wont step over her. They have learned now if they give a bark that I will shift her so they can come in. Sometimes if Im fussing one and the others want acess they will position themselves to block the others access if they want a fuss too.

What I did find was a useful exercise was teaching the pups when younger a reliable sit wait on their daily one to one training sessions without the others present, and as they all have been taught it, once the pup has learned, have them all sitting and waitingand have treats, giving them a treat in turn, so they are all told to sit and wait. Then once the pup has learned impulse control and can do it, I have them all sitting and waiting and they get treats in turn. So it becomes sit/wait Kobis the others get told to wait and he gets his, then sit wait again, Nanuqs the others are told to wait and she gets hers and so on. I usually keep the same order of giving them too and do it when feeding too.

From the day they arrive they are always given their own forever place to eat,With plenty of space, so they can eat in peace and with no need for competing.
I also keep the same order as for everthing else that they get it. You should find that in time when you pick the bowls up they will automatically go to their places and as they know they will all get it and in what order their is no squabbling or jumping up or having to compete as they all know the routine and know they will get fed and when.

Same if Im paying attention and giving one a fuss and the other comes over,
they have been taught that both can have equal attention and fuss by having them both sitting and the both get pats and strokes or even all three.
They dont have to compete as they will all get it anway.

They have all learnt too that pushing for when wanting things, jumping up or competing doesnt get them anything either, if they sit and wait on the other hand or act calmly they will get it that way.

Its just a matter of establishing routines and training as I mentioned. Maybe once you have sorted out her over bearing and over disciplining of the pup, then they are the sort of things you can introduce to the daily routine to manage and get control. Its nothing to do with having to dominate to be pack leader just teach them the way you want them to behave and whats acceptable and whats not.

 

...a useful exercise was [teach the pup] when younger a reliable sit / wait in their daily 1-to-1
training sessions [solo], & as they've all been taught it, once the pup [learns, I] have them all [sit & wait,
& give] them a treat in turn... once the pup has learned impulse control & can do it.
... it becomes sit/wait Kobis, the others get told to wait & he gets his, then sit wait, Nanuqs,
...& she gets hers, & so on. I usually keep the same order of giving [treats as] when feeding...

i LOVE group-sits for treats - a great exercise for impulse-control, teaching the reliability of 'fairness', etc. :thumbup1:

dogs do have a sense of 'what's fair', research has shown that rewards for one dog & not another
when both are performing the same task, will cause the slighted dog to quit, become unenthusiastic,
or act-out; the value of the treat doesn't matter, only that both get it. Giving different value treats for
the same exercise creates the same problem: One dog gets bread-cubes, the other gets chicken-cubes?...
the dog getting bread will slow down, look confused, quit entirely, or bark, etc.

TIP:
when doing group-activities, reward the puppy first. It's counter-intuitive, but trust me -
it means that attn for the pup always predicts attn for the Other Dog. This is good,
as ppl will always be sucked in by a puppy, & if the elder dog associates THE PUP getting attn with,
"My turn next!...", attn to the puppy is a Good Thing, not a bad one.

i also like to teach dogs in the same household a "collective address", such as Puppies! or Oy, dogs!,
so i can have them all do something without reading the roster - recall, get in the house, lie-down, ____ .
It's very helpful to have a word that means, ALL y'all listen..., it saves a lot of hassle, especially
in any emergency. :yesnod:

group-downs are good for pups, as elder-dogs can role-model a nice patient DOWN for them,
but don't make them long - 30-sec is plenty, a 45-sec DOWN cn teach a pup to hate the cue / position,
& they'll try to break. Build endurance as the pup gets older, & take advantage of tired moments
to ask for a "down". Also, give young ones a CHEWIE for any down that lasts more than 30-secs!
anything will do - a solid-rubber ring, a hard Nylabone [wiped with a buttered tissue to add scent...],
a safe knotted rope - something to gnaw.

 

Wow thank you for the tips guys, all very helpful and give me a starting point to work on

I realize now I need to keep Rio more engaged with sits and downs in the kitchen and at the back door, she has yet to muzzle grab today because she is too focused on working for hot dogs :cornut:

 

Wow thank you for the tips guys, all very helpful and give me a starting point to work on

I realize now I need to keep Rio more engaged with sits and downs in the kitchen and at the back door, she has yet to muzzle grab today because she is too focused on working for hot dogs :cornut:

No muzzle grabs already thats a good result, keep going:thumbup1:

 

No muzzle grabs already thats a good result, keep going:thumbup1:

Shes a hotdog junkie lately (after months of refusing them ) so as long as I have pocket full of them the rest of the world doesn't exist

 

Shes a hotdog junkie lately (after months of refusing them ) so as long as I have pocket full of them the rest of the world doesn't exist

Mine are like that with cheese, although tennis balls work too on Nanuq both get instant attention, but it has to be a tennis ball not interested in any others.