[Sarah H]

I've read the study...and tbf it isn't just the FF crowd calling out to be bad science.

I've read many scientific articles, studies, etc, especially related to dogs and other animals, and it really isn't great.
There are plenty of people on the internet explaining why it's bad so I'll just say a couple of my personal thoughts. Yes there are cr@p reward based studies out there, but what people are up in arms about is that in this study they shocked dogs so they yelped (but apparently showed no signs of stress other than that clear pain/startle response) and some dogs were shocked so many times they had to be removed from the study (and surely the fact that the shock didn't work after so much use shows how ineffective it can be). I honestly don't know how it got past the ethics committee - I don't think it would in the UK.
And the less said about how they did the reward part of the study the better! I don't think any trainer would say that dropping food into a bowl is going to be effective at stopping a dog chasing! So how can you compare that with an e-collar?
I do actually think this could have been a good study, but they ended up making themselves look like the 'bad guys' for shocking the dogs so many times and making the reward based training part a farce.

@O2.0 I think DF has decided to ignore him now hasn't she? Can't imagine she'd bother putting energy into engaging with him.

She put a lovely video up this morning of her training Xen at the train station. I love how she reads him so well and changes stuff up because of how he's acting and feeling about the situation.

 

[Cleo38]

As you are a scientist @Dimwit , I was interested in your thoughts. I briefly skimmed it & thought that's how they trained the cue but as I hadn't read it properly assumed there was more to it than than that ..... obviously not!

I don't think there is a way of proving what training method is more effective as it depends on too many factors.

But, as these tools are constantly being threatened with being banned, maybe a study (even one not that great) can be used to demonstrate these can be effective. After all the rubbish from Lincoln University is often cited as 'proof' that ecollars are 'cruel' & 'ineffective'.

 

[StormyThai]

I've read many scientific articles, studies, etc, especially related to dogs and other animals, and it really isn't great.

It's perfect to show how to conduct a biased study

I find it "interesting" that instead of looking for a trainer that has had multiple successes of teaching dogs to recall from a chase, it was a student of Ivan's and no mention if they can indeed train a recall without aversives.

The study doesn't really prove anything.

 

[Dimwit]

I find it "interesting" that instead of looking for a trainer that has had multiple successes of teaching dogs to recall from a chase, it was a student of Ivan's and no mention if they can indeed train a recall without aversives.

The worst bit was that they didn't actually train a recall (with or without aversives) - all they did was very briefly introduce 'banana' as a predictor for food, in the same way you would prime a clicker, or use 'good' or 'cookie' as a reward marker before you deliver the reward. At no point did they then extend this to use 'banana' as an actual cue, so it's not surprising that the dogs largely ignored this. I also find it very bizarre that when the dogs didn't respond they just kept repeating 'banana' and dropping more food into the bowl that was over 20 m away from the dog...

It's a shame, because a well-designed and executed study could have addressed some of the concerns about the use of ecollars, but this was neither well-designed nor well executed and certainly is not proof that ecollar training is more successful

 

[StormyThai]

It's a shame, because a well-designed and executed study could have addressed some of the concerns about the use of ecollars, but this was neither well-designed nor well executed and certainly is not proof that ecollar training is more successful

100%
It's perfect for gaining engagement on social media tho

 

[O2.0]

I don't think there is a way of proving what training method is more effective as it depends on too many factors.

Yup

Which is why this debate on methods is so annoying. It doesn't accomplish anything other than division. If instead of focusing on IB is "balanced" and JoRosie is "force free," so are polar opposites, why not look at areas where they're both the same. Or look at Michael Ellis and Susan Garrett - how are they the same (both are phenomenal at building value for a reward, both are super clear with their cues and body language for example). The foundations, all the commonalities, take those and build on that. You'll end up with fewer people needing to use force anyway because they have a great foundation.

I loved JoRosie's video explaining predatory chasing and taking into account the dog's innate behaviors, what they were bred for, and their tendencies when it comes to the handler.
I am sick to death of herding breed handlers talking about their dog's high drive and how that makes a recall so much harder than a cute little lap dog. The dog is literally bred to look to the handler, hell, even drive the stock TO the handler. And you're telling me my terrier running to me isn't as impressive? Okay.... (Granted, if her head is in a critter hole I'm not getting her back, but she's not running off either!)

 

[Cleo38]

So it seems there is now a petition raised tobtry tonstop Ivan B coming to the UK as hes an animal abuser. The RSPCA has released a statement criticising him aswell

This sort of thing p*sses me off so much. Obviously none of these people has even tried to find out what his seminar is about (it's actually about play, building confidence, strengthening relationships & not about shocking dogs).

There is real animal abuse going on, unfortunately it's not even difficult to find yet these people will focus on someone simply because they might disagree with one element of their training & begone obsessed with bringing that person down because of it.

And as for the RSPCA ..... where are they when called out for real animals in danger???? Nowhere!!!

As like many things nowadays it box ticking without actually being effective.

 

[Blitz]

Yup

Which is why this debate on methods is so annoying. It doesn't accomplish anything other than division. If instead of focusing on IB is "balanced" and JoRosie is "force free," so are polar opposites, why not look at areas where they're both the same. Or look at Michael Ellis and Susan Garrett - how are they the same (both are phenomenal at building value for a reward, both are super clear with their cues and body language for example). The foundations, all the commonalities, take those and build on that. You'll end up with fewer people needing to use force anyway because they have a great foundation.

I loved JoRosie's video explaining predatory chasing and taking into account the dog's innate behaviors, what they were bred for, and their tendencies when it comes to the handler.
I am sick to death of herding breed handlers talking about their dog's high drive and how that makes a recall so much harder than a cute little lap dog. The dog is literally bred to look to the handler, hell, even drive the stock TO the handler. And you're telling me my terrier running to me isn't as impressive? Okay.... (Granted, if her head is in a critter hole I'm not getting her back, but she's not running off either!)

I used to always have herding breeds and teaching a reliable recall was a total doddle. It is what they do. My cute fluffy poodles on the other hand were bred as water retrievers and are far more independent and got such a high prey drive. I cant even imagine one of my collies or shelties clearing off after a bird or rabbit and yet every poodle I have owned will be gone in a heartbeat. Even among breeds though your training methods have to vary. I have used e collars on a couple of poodles with great success and I hope I would be arrested if I used them on some of the others. I tried with one of my collies that spent all day racing up and down the fence line 'herding' horses and she was far too fixated for it to even be noticed. Admittedly it was a cheap one and I am not sure the contacts were great.

 

[O2.0]

So it seems there is now a petition raised tobtry tonstop Ivan B coming to the UK as hes an animal abuser. The RSPCA has released a statement criticising him aswell

How nice of Zak George with his huge platform to share this VeRy iMpOrTaNt petition, I'm sure it was just an oversight that he has failed to mention at all, not once, the devastation in Western North Carolina and ways you can help. Where so many FF trainers have homes and businesses. Yeah, I'm sure he just forgot to do that. And I'm sure he never saw Michael Shikashio, Denise Fenzi, and others he is well aware of so he can criticize, I'm sure he just didn't see their posts about WNC....
Bitter? Me? Nah...

 

[Sarah H]

I think because people managed to stop DD they are trying again. It's that thing of lumping trainers together when they are worlds apart. However I saw another post from IB bashing FF trainers. I wish he'd rein his neck in and stop poking the bear as this sort of stupid post is exactly why people don't like him and why the FF community finds him so aggravating and someone to focus their anger on. If he got on and did what he is good at - training - then people like me might actually want to see stuff from him. Whereas right now I can't stand the bloke and don't want to engage with anything he does or posts.
Just a note that this isn't about training practices but social media posts riling other trainers up and bashing other methods- I can't stand ZG either for exactly the same reason!

 

[O2.0]

Agreed, they're both being stupid chest-thumping men. Sorry for the stereotype but that's what it feels like.
I think ZG has really gone off the deep end, but it's working for him as his posts get tons of views and his sponsors are happy to support him. Part of me wonders if there is a part of IB who wonders if causing controversy won't help his algorithm too and in turn his bottom line. He sure is making a killing off his sold-out seminars, they're not cheap!

I wouldn't put it past ZG to have created that petition, calling IB an abuser and trying to bar him from making a living doing a seminar is basically slander isn't it? IDK, the way he's going after people is mental. And he seems to pick black women now too which is... something considering his previous posts about misogyny in dog training and colonizer attitudes. I've now counted 3 separate black women he's has tagged and gone after in his stories, which is sneaky because they disappear after a day or so. I haven't been on his stories in a while so it may be more.

And yes, I'm very sour that he is happy to use his platform to try and get IB banned from the UK, but he can't bother to post one single thing about WNC even though there is a fairly large contingent of FF folks in that area.

 

[Cleo38]

Yes, I agree that IB needs to rein it in & I also think that the more inflammatory posts towards FF trainers might also be using social media traffic to boost his own profile ..... it really needs to stop.

We were chatting about this yesterday as I was training with friends (we all train differently but all get on & our ethics are the same ..... funny that those online cant seem to recognise this )

We all spoke of the recently study (how poor it was but also felt the same with others) & also found it strange how many FF people refer to Skinner alot without acknowledging the horrible things he did to animals. Is this conveniently forgotten?

Personally I'm really looking forward to IB'S UK seminar. I want to do better for my dogs & I think this will be a fantastic opportunity to learn how to do this, it's really that simple. It has nothing to do with IGP or obedience, but all about our relationship (which obviously is the foundation for everything).

Yesterday at our training session I started heelwork foundations with Herbert & OMG, he was fantastic! He's a year old now & many people would have been much further ahead than us at this stage, but because he's such a baby I've not really done any formal training at all. I've had to work hard on bringing out his drive, motivation , etc, far more than with Archer or Marnie (although he's not like Kato! ). I've loved seeing him come on & that I have to think more about how to do this.

I honestly think learning more about emotions & relationships (from Mia S & IB), has taught me so much & I am better at this now, but still know I have more to learn. And sp I've spent the money saved for my winter heating oil on a ticket to see IB ..... let's hope it's a mild winter!!!!

 

[O2.0]

Had to come find this thread and see when this all started, May 2024.
I thought I had my algorithm well sorted because there is so little drama on there, the folks I follow stay out of it, and then I saw that Zak George has now gone after Michael Ellis?! Quoted him in a clipped quote saying "ultimately we don't get dog's consent, unfortunately they're not able to give consent." Somehow this means ME is a terrible trainer and abuses dogs

The other part that was interesting was his demonstration of "consent" was to lure a dog's head into a harness.
Not sure how luring a dog is the same as the dog giving consent. Whole lotta ways that makes me really uncomfortable if you translate it into human relationships....

Not that treats and luring to get dogs used to muzzles or harnesses is bad, it's a great strategy. Though for Penny I've discovered it's better to just to do it quickly instead of dragging the whole process out.

But yeah, 10 months now of ZG rage baiting. (And me falling for it!)
Someone explained how it works though, he must be making $$$$$$$
Not gonna like I wouldn't mind that gig! Though I think I couldn't handle my conscience....

 

[Linda Weasel]

‘Consent’ is tricky….

I found a lovely groomer who said she had a holistic and consensual approach; every time she tried to get near Tod’s claws, he froze then pulled away, so she backed off presumably waiting for him to give his consent.

That was never going to happen…… he was just going to escalate because she wasn’t listening.

Maybe I don’t understand the premise of consent?

 

[Cleo38]

OMFG!! @O2.0 your post made me go & see his latest content 😭😭🤣

And .... unless the dog is worried about a harness (& that looks like a fantastic way to create stress!), who the f^ck introduces a harness like that?!!! Draping it over their ears is really not going to help

The ME clip is really old (am sure over 10yrs) so not particularly fair to drag him in to this, the IB is recent as he discussed this at his seminar.

Is the dog really giving 'consent' or it is just tolerating? Can a dog really give consent? I don't believe so, but I do think there are ways of doing things that can give the dog more control in the training/procedure/husbandry task, etc

I think this relates to Chirag Patel's Bucket Game (where the dog stares at a small bucket & as soon as eye content drift away then the handler stops doing whatever they were doing eg: grooming nail clipping, looking in ears, etc). This worked really well for Archer when he was little & didn't like the dryer. I'd tried clicking & treating, etc but this method gave him more control & so as soon as he looked away I stopped. We were able to build up durations really quickly as he knew I would stop when he wanted to. Funny, as he's not been worried by anything else, just this!

Edited to add: Funny, someone just shared this absolute gem from ZG

 

[O2.0]

The ME clip is really old (am sure over 10yrs)

Someone posted the whole clip (well, a minute of it) and it was actually a wonderful master class in all sorts of skills from reward placement, timing, understanding puppy attention spans...
The pup was all loose and wiggly the whole time, gentle swooshing tail wags and obviously very happy and eager to work. Could not have been in better hands. And if you listen to the clip with ME talking to the dog, his kindness and affinity for the pup just exudes (as it always does when he's working with a dog).

To go after someone like him just amazes me.

 

[Cleo38]

Someone posted the whole clip (well, a minute of it) and it was actually a wonderful master class in all sorts of skills from reward placement, timing, understanding puppy attention spans...
The pup was all loose and wiggly the whole time, gentle swooshing tail wags and obviously very happy and eager to work. Could not have been in better hands. And if you listen to the clip with ME talking to the dog, his kindness and affinity for the pup just exudes (as it always does when he's working with a dog).

To go after someone like him just amazes me.

I don't think I've watched the whole clip, but remember seeing it as a montage at the beginning of a Leerburg video years ago.

ME is one of the most considerate & intuitive dog trainers I've seen (although not in person, unfortunately!). I don't think ZG cares who he goes after, just of they don't agree exactly with him then they are the enemy. Seems to be a common theme on social media.

The above clip I posted of ZG, I keep thinking that maybe it was a spoof or a video of how not to train a specific exercise. Surely he wouldn't post that as a good example ... would he?

 

[Sarah H]

I don't think anyone has ever called ZG the poster boy for scientific consensus have they??? Maybe the FF extreme but not science lol. I'd hoped all the ZG stuff had gone from my feed too but it seems to reappear every now and then unfortunately.
ME just seems to have such a natural and instinctive way with dogs and he's evolved over the years just like most trainers. I think a lot of the stuff you see against the extremes is just there to stir up the sh!t TBH. They like to polarise and create tension and it's not really to do with actual real life dogs, it's a crusade for the sake of it.

 

[O2.0]

The above clip I posted of ZG, I keep thinking that maybe it was a spoof or a video of how not to train a specific exercise. Surely he wouldn't post that as a good example ... would he?

OMG I just watched it, it HAS to be a spoof isn't it? Or a before from a before and after clip?

 

[Cleo38]

OMG I just watched it, it HAS to be a spoof isn't it? Or a before from a before and after clip?

Hahaha, it isn't!! I honestly thought that maybe I had been quick to judge & this was a spoof or a "How not to ....." training clip but it wasn't

I foudn this episode on YouTube of the same dog & the clip is briefly in this, maybe it's on YT in full, I'll have to search again. I eneded up watching all of this rubbish.

OMG, it is so bad. How he can claim that he is better than IB or ME is laughable watching this inept, inconsiderate & ill thought out training. There is so much wrong with this & tbh as I've not really watched his content, I am shocked at how bad it is.

And as for not training with fear ..... I beg to differ. At certain points (one being around the 13min mark) when he tells the dog very sternly "No" & "Leave it" the dogs clearly shows that he is worried. His ears go down & the lowered body posture, shows very clearly anxiety. If he had lowered his criteria & had the dog on a lead then he wouldn't have needed to act like that.

The of trainers like Micheal Ellis, Ivan Balabanov, Denise Fenzi & Mia Skogster is that they always prioritise the relationship with the dog, there is the reward as such (food/toy) but always use their voice, really praise the dog & alot of physical connection (touching, stroking, etc). At no point in this did ZG really show the dog how amazing he was, how proud of him he was & what an amazing job he was doing (the dog, not ZG!). He simply rewarded him with food & said the odd "good job". It was literally the last 2mins when he did show the dog some affection but I think it was more about him & his wife congratulating themselves on how they were helping shelter dogs.

Absolute garbage! But, I feel that as I was able to listen to the Dog Daddy on IB's podcast for over 3hrs then I can tolerate anything now!!! 😬