[Furfection]

Thanks Rufus.
Can someone answer me this question?
How easy/quick is it to confirm TICA or GCCF documents regarding a kitten?
And how forthcoming/helpful are they if you want a quick answer?

How do people do it in practice when they are about to visit a breeder and ready to acquire a kitten?
I mean anyone can produce authentic looking documents if the registration bodies don't have extra steps.

PS not sure if this post is better suited to the pedigree papers sticky?

 

[Tigermoon]

Thanks Rufus.
Can someone answer me this question?
How easy/quick is it to confirm TICA or GCCF documents regarding a kitten?
And how forthcoming/helpful are they if you want a quick answer?

How do people do it in practice when they are about to visit a breeder and ready to acquire a kitten?
I mean anyone can produce authentic looking documents if the registration bodies don't have extra steps.

PS not sure if this post is better suited to the pedigree papers sticky?

You can contact the registries and enquire if the kitten is genuinely registered, but you'd need to have the registration number and pedigree name to do so. A quick answer, as in you need an answer in less than two days, highly unlikely.

I don't understand your last question. What do you mean about extra steps?

 

[QOTN]

I think it is a mistake to assume the majority of breeders are likely to give kitten owners fake documents. I suspect the dodgy 'breeders' don't bother with such things. Whatever I have thought of all the other breeders I have known, it has never occurred to me that their registration certificates were anything but genuine. They would be so much trouble to falsify and registration is a relatively cheap process. Many pedigree certificates I have seen have contained errors but only typos or misreading of handwriting and not intentional.

 

[OrientalSlave]

If you read the stick it has examples of genuine registration documents. I have shown my girls certificate to a buyer and it clearly has active on. Also when people visit to view my kittens they are not registered at that point in time as the future owners sometimes like to choose the pedigree name. Of course they are come collection day!

 

[Furfection]

You can contact the registries and enquire if the kitten is genuinely registered, but you'd need to have the registration number and pedigree name to do so. A quick answer, as in you need an answer in less than two days, highly unlikely.

I don't understand your last question. What do you mean about extra steps?

Extra steps, I'm touching on what you mentioned earlier. As a buyer/adopter I'd want to know the person really is the registered person, with those contact details, with genuine not copied documents etc. And the cat's ancestry is correct ie not the result of some form of substitute parents etc.

Its no good for TICA to just say "yes we have a registered Jane Brown who is not suspended". Because ideally I want to confirm its the person stated and the kitten/kitten parents that are stated.The TICA cattery list pdf for example, I think hasn't beeen updated this year.

I know GCCF didn't have phone staff due to staff shortages recently and they took a while to respond to emails. So I'm thinking that in practical terms it maybe hard to check out one of the newer breeders I mention below if its over a short space of time.

I think it is a mistake to assume the majority of breeders are likely to give kitten owners fake documents. I suspect the dodgy 'breeders' don't bother with such things. Whatever I have thought of all the other breeders I have known, it has never occurred to me that their registration certificates were anything but genuine. They would be so much trouble to falsify and registration is a relatively cheap process. Many pedigree certificates I have seen have contained errors but only typos or misreading of handwriting and not intentional.

Sure I think the majority of cat breeders are well intentioned. Some might do a few things wrongly and think it doesn't matter.
I've bought cats with no papers and everything went fine.
Then ofcourse there are sadly some who might cross the lines, usually in the higher priced breeds.

I'm looking at a newish breed to the UK. Some breeders are charging as much as £1300! Though generally £550 to £950, usually £700 to £850. There's (very?) limited numbers of breeding pairs in the UK. So my first worries are pet farmers and substitute (eg inbred or non-pedigree/non-registered) parents who might increase the risk of disease. I'm finding the most high profile established breeders have limited numbers of kittens - I can't find my preferred colour.Although I'd trust these breeders 1000%
But there are newer breeders who might have my colour. However, they aren't in the cat clubs, don't have websites, advertise a LOT, seem a bit mysterious/unknown to the established breeders and are often newly arrived foreign citizens. And they sometimes have different practices to the "mainstream" ones, even substantially more expensive. None of these things are "red flags" in their own right. However, it kind of makes things harder to figure out.

The cats are far lower priced in Europe, especially in Russia. I've also heard some people import young kittens. So I'm kind of wondering if documents might be used "twice" by unscrupulous breeders, if you follow my meaning. That and various other potential caveats.

I know new breeders have to start somewhere but some things are making me tread a little carefully.

If you read the stick it has examples of genuine registration documents. I have shown my girls certificate to a buyer and it clearly has active on. Also when people visit to view my kittens they are not registered at that point in time as the future owners sometimes like to choose the pedigree name. Of course they are come collection day!

I think one part is that you're an established breeder who is known in the UK. Ofcourse being registered on collection gives the new adopter a huge amount of reassurance. Which is what I'm still looking for right now with a breeder.

 

[Rufus15]

@Furfection are you looking for a Neva Masquerade?

 

[Furfection]

Neva or a Sibby colourpoint, not sure on the exact words. I hear the terms are contentious : D

 

[OrientalSlave]

<snip>
I think one part is that you're an established breeder who is known in the UK. Ofcourse being registered on collection gives the new adopter a huge amount of reassurance. Which is what I'm still looking for right now.

Any kitten from a GCCF breeder should be registered before you collect it unless there is an explicit agreement otherwise, in writing.

Have you read the GCCF's page on buying a kitten?

https://www.gccfcats.org/Buying-a-kitten

PS I'm a little bit known as a breeder in Scotland, I doubt if most people south of Leeds / Manchester have heard of me other than fellow forumites and the odd person on Facebook.

 

[Furfection]

@Furfection are you looking for a Neva Masquerade?

Any kitten from a GCCF breeder should be registered before you collect it unless there is an explicit agreement otherwise, in writing.

Have you read the GCCF's page on buying a kitten?

https://www.gccfcats.org/Buying-a-kitten

PS I'm a little bit known as a breeder in Scotland, I doubt if most people south of Leeds / Manchester have heard of me other than fellow forumites and the odd person on Facebook.

Yes, read it from top to bottom. I think I mentioned this on petforums with someone. The problem is, the breeder says "don't agree, then no kitten". All I want is to know the kitten is identified as the reg one.

Some breeders say "I'll register the litter at 8 months when they are all neutered". But like I said before, there is early neutering.
And what if there's some sort of problem at 8 months re registration? ("You told me he was a pet, not for showing, why do you want it now, he's a lovely cat isn't he? Do you want to return him to me?") Ofcourse its a disciplinary matter, but many/most buyers don't/won't bother complaining. Additionally, why wouldn't a litter (and not transfers) be registered early on? Maybe the GCCF should make the wording more demanding?

 

[OrientalSlave]

Yes, read it from top to bottom. I think I mentioned this on petforums with someone. The problem is, the breeder says "don't agree, then no kitten". All I want is to know the kitten is identified as the reg one.

Some breeders say "I'll register the litter at 8 months when they are all neutered". But like I said before, there is early neutering.
And what if there's some sort of problem at 8 months re registration? ("You told me he was a pet, not for showing, why do you want it now, he's a lovely cat isn't he? Do you want to return him to me?") Ofcourse its a disciplinary matter, but many/most buyers don't/won't bother complaining. Additionally, why wouldn't a litter (and not transfers) be registered early on? Maybe the GCCF should make the wording more demanding?

The breeder is insisting you agree to no papers? Run.

Run also from the one who says they will register- or give the papers - when the kitten is neutered. Also 8 months is far, far too late to be neutering. 4 months is the right age - or younger. They must be quite dumb as BYBs don't are about papers, they buy the kitten and breed it regardless,

I've missed what breed you are looking for, in what part of the country, but my advice would be to be prepared to go up to 200 miles to find the right kitten from the right breeder.

 

[Tigermoon]

But there are newer breeders who might have my colour. However, they aren't in the cat clubs, don't have websites, advertise a LOT, seem a bit mysterious/unknown to the established breeders and are often newly arrived foreign citizens. And they sometimes have different practices to the "mainstream" ones, even substantially more expensive. None of these things are "red flags" in their own right.

Every single one of these is a red flag!!

If you are worried about trusting breeders within the UK then there is absolutely no way you should ever consider importing a kitten, especially one from Russia. The pit falls of importing are massive, and very, very expensive if it goes wrong.

I think it's time you told us exactly what you are looking for, breed and colour. I don't know how we are supposed to help any further otherwise?

 

[Furfection]

The breeder is insisting you agree to no papers? Run.

Run also from the one who says they will register- or give the papers - when the kitten is neutered. Also 8 months is far, far too late to be neutering. 4 months is the right age - or younger. They must be quite dumb as BYBs don't are about papers, they buy the kitten and breed it regardless,

I've missed what breed you are looking for, in what part of the country, but my advice would be to be prepared to go up to 200 miles to find the right kitten from the right breeder.

Unfortunately lots of breeders are saying they'll withold til neutered or less again. Not just obvious BYBs but people who have been around a while/with good show cats etc.

I'd happily look anywhere across the South East, South West and Wales, Midlands, and most of the North. Newcastle or Scotland would probably a little too far for now atleast.

Every single one of these is a red flag!!

If you are worried about trusting breeders within the UK then there is absolutely no way you should ever consider importing a kitten, especially one from Russia. The pit falls of importing are massive, and very, very expensive if it goes wrong.

I think it's time you told us exactly what you are looking for, breed and colour. I don't know how we are supposed to help any further otherwise?

Re Russia, its a fun place to visit but I think it just gives me extra hassle re importation, as I don't want to breed.
The non-EU import bit looks like a pain.Plus costs are considerable from what I can see. I'm sure it would be attractive for breeders though.
I haven't looked at the EU.. again I feel its a bit early to search that far.

OK, initially, I wanted to keep it vague - just "particular colours Siberian" in case it had an adverse effect on my search.
Plus I notice people tend to avoid specifics eg naming breeders on the main forum.
But as per above - I just want a colourpoint ie a Neva Masquerade Siberian. They can appear with parents who are classic non colourpoints (who carry the genes), but far more regularly with both parents who are colourpoint ie Nevas.

 

[Tigermoon]

Nevas are unfortunately rather disliked by sib breeders (and buyers apparently, who all want brown or silver tabby). However if its what you want, then wait for it. I'll check which of my sib friends do nevas. I know at lest one did at one point.

 

[Rufus15]

I think your only option is to wait for the colour you want from a breeder you'd like. Nevas, as Tigermoon says, aren't popular in the UK (although I believe they're more popular in the US), and many people now have to wait for a pedigree from an ethical breeder. Breeders often now have their pick of homes, as opposed to the other way around, especially for longer haired cats which seem to be "in" at the moment

 

[Catnewbie]

Hi,
Just wanted to share my experience so far.

Went to see a reputable breeder based on fb groups, cat club etc. I knew the lady has waiting lists etc. Met her, she showed me around her house, all her cats and sires etc. I was happy, i got on her waiting list but i knew it would be a while as i'm after a certain colour.

So fast forward, i started getting impatient and kept checking pet4homes as i wanted a kitten and didn't want ti wait any longer. I found some nice looking GCCF non active kittens, male too as i find males rare to find on pets4homes. Visited the breeder. She seemed lovely but mildly pushy and told me there's another lady waiting to see cats tomorrow. It was very suble selling tactic but i noticed it, maybe she was genuine. She didnt have the dad but i asked her about the mother and she said she's had to keep her away from the kittens as she wants to keep feeding the kittens but is too weak and has lost weight. In my head this didn't feel right but i was too (scared?) of persisting and asking to see her. She did not show me her other cats either just the 3 that were in the litter and available nor did she offer to show me the mother in another room. Maybe i shouldve asked and been more assertive?

I told her we needed to think about it and would let her know by end of the day. A few hours after i got home she wanted to know if i've made a decision because the other lady is asking. I said we've decided not to go ahead.

When i got home i had serious doubts, she was a nice lady but i get really put off when (i feel) someone is trying to pressure me. I felt like she just wanted to get rid of the cats. the cats were ok, they interacted with toys but one was quite aggressive with the other n scratched my 8 year old sensible son during play. He also seemed to flinch when my son would go near him could be cos he was a stranger even though they're handled by kids daily.

The other breeder i met doesn't advertise and she's part of the GCCF breeder scheme and the cat club whereas this breeder i saw today just registers her cats with GCCF but isn't part of a cat club or the breeder scheme. I'm wondering that's where the difference is.
I feel i'm paying the same amount for the registered cat i want to pay someone i feel i can trust and is open and transparent, happy to show me around the house and other cats and the parents.

I am thankful for this forum for educating me and even though i nearly made a mistake i am thankful for this forum for at least making me retain some warning signs that i need to look out for. Or maybe she was a genuine lady and i lost out on a good kitten but i can't part with that sort of money when i have my doubts about someone.

 

[Tigermoon]

Or maybe she was a genuine lady and i lost out on a good kitten but i can't part with that sort of money when i have my doubts about someone.​

If you ever have any doubt's whatsoever it is always best to walk away. The breeder may have been a good one but you should always buy from someone you feel comfortable with, as hopefully, you'll have a joint interest for the next 14+ years!

You should always see the mother. There are only two reasons I can think of that this can't happen 1. she's sick and at the vets. 2. she has died. Both are possibilities, though

thankfully rare. But any breeder worth their salt would be honest and explain the reason for her not being there.​

All I can say is be patient. Keep in mind the goal you are after and don't settle for anything else, even if that means you need to wait. Remember to keep in touch with the breeder, just a quick email to say 'Hi, how are the kittens/is there any kittens on the way' and a reminder of what you are looking for will go a long way. If I've not heard from someone for a month or more I think they've probably found a kitten elsewhere (this is very common and pretty frustrating from a breeders point of view as it wastes time while you try to find out who on your list is and isn't still looking).

Being a member of a cat club isn't necessarily a good or bad sign, similarly a breeder that shows isn't going to be necessarily better than one who doesn't. although it does perhaps show a stronger connection to the breed they own.

 

[ZephD]

Hi, I'm new to the forum but joined to see if anyone else is having the same problems in the search for a new Maine Coon.
I've owned them before - my avatar is the last one, who sadly died a little while ago. Naturally, as any MC fan will understand, I want another one to replace her. I know who most of the reputable breeders are and where to find the main kitten lists, but I'm finding it really hard to get any up-to-date information.

Almost all the breeders seem to be letting their websites go out of date and not replying to emails. I thought perhaps they'd all migrated to Facebook, but peeking on there I couldn't find any more info. I can see from the breed society pages that these people are all still showing.
I realise it's a pain to keep a site current and everyone's busy, but from a potential owner's point of view, an up-to-date website really helps. For example, the breeder where I bought before is still breeding, she's a nice woman, but I had two kittens from her and one had HCM and died quite young. So before I contact her again I want to know which lines she's breeding from and if she's testing now - no info on her site, which is years out of date.
I can see that some breeders post on here, and I wondered if they know - is there a reason why people seem to be practically pulling down the shutters?

The sad thing is that it probably drives buyers to Gumtree, Pets4homes etc, where there are always recent postings from BYBs.

 

[chillminx]

Hi @ZephD and welcome

Do you go to the cat shows? It is a good place to meet the breeders informally, have a chat and see their cats. And take it from there.

 

[ZephD]

Hi @ZephD and welcome

Do you go to the cat shows? It is a good place to meet the breeders informally, have a chat and see their cats. And take it from there.

Hi, thanks for the quick reply! I haven't been to cat shows, I don't show myself and it always seemed a bit of an alien world But perhaps that's what people prefer now, personal contact rather than online.

None of my MCs would ever talk to strangers, at all, ever, so I can't imagine how you'd get one to put up with showing! I guess every breed has its divas.

 

[Rufus15]

Hi, I'm new to the forum but joined to see if anyone else is having the same problems in the search for a new Maine Coon.
I've owned them before - my avatar is the last one, who sadly died a little while ago. Naturally, as any MC fan will understand, I want another one to replace her. I know who most of the reputable breeders are and where to find the main kitten lists, but I'm finding it really hard to get any up-to-date information.

Almost all the breeders seem to be letting their websites go out of date and not replying to emails. I thought perhaps they'd all migrated to Facebook, but peeking on there I couldn't find any more info. I can see from the breed society pages that these people are all still showing.
I realise it's a pain to keep a site current and everyone's busy, but from a potential owner's point of view, an up-to-date website really helps. For example, the breeder where I bought before is still breeding, she's a nice woman, but I had two kittens from her and one had HCM and died quite young. So before I contact her again I want to know which lines she's breeding from and if she's testing now - no info on her site, which is years out of date.
I can see that some breeders post on here, and I wondered if they know - is there a reason why people seem to be practically pulling down the shutters?

The sad thing is that it probably drives buyers to Gumtree, Pets4homes etc, where there are always recent postings from BYBs.

I'm a new Maine Coon breeder, maybe I can help?

A lot of breeders are getting more enquiries than they can keep up with. I would suggest ringing your chosen breeder(s) and either go on waiting lists or keep in contact with them regularly so you can get updates on when they might expect a litter.

If you want to take this over to pm, I can help you with this breeder and who might have their lines.