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#41 · (Edited)
Azura said:
I think what a lot of people don't realize is that not all Siamese look the same. The modern, sleek, super short coat is quite common and people think that is "the look" that indicates if they are pure or not. Definitely not true! The kittens I have are the Traditional apple head type. If you take a look at Larami Cattery under "adopted kittens" you will see that they look like my kittens. And those ones are obviously pure - registered and everything.

I personally prefer the Traditional look, and that is what I am aiming to reproduce. While I agree with health tests even that can go too far I think in some cases. Seriously, if people were required to go through the hoops some animal breeders do, not many people would be having kids! Not that every person should necessarily reproduce, but that is still their choice.
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My dad is an ex Siamese cat breeder so I know a fair bit about the breed, I don't profess to be an 'expert', far from it, but in my honest opinion, your cats are either not pure Siamese or poorly bred Siamese.
I am well aware of the old style/classic Siamese.
I prefer them also to the more extreme type that is winning in the show ring.

The coat on your cats, in my opinion, is too long and plush.
I have never seen a Siamese kitten with that kind of coat.
Like OrientalSlave, my first thought also was Balinese.
Without papers, neither of us can say with any certainty what they are, regardless of if you have seen the parents or not.
Did you see the papers of the parents?
If not, they are 'colour pointed domestic shorthairs' technically.

I am also in two minds about their face/head shape but happy to be corrected.
I have seen genuine classic Siamese with that head and face shape but the wedge shape characteristic to the breed doesn't seem to be particularly defined, even in (good quality) old style cats I have seen the face has usually still had a wedge shaped head, just not as extreme.

Also, health testing is done for one purpose - for the benefit of the cats and their offspring.
No such thing as too far when looking out for the health of your cats in my opinion.

Edited to add - a Google reveals that 'traditional apple head' and 'traditional old style/classic' are somewhat blurred and interchangeable with some breeders taking Traditional applehead to mean a cat, that to me looks like a colour pointed british shorthair; quite stocky, very rounded face, heavy boned and some believing traditional applehead to what I always thought, a less extreme cat, still svelte with a wedge face and normally placed ears.

Your cats certainly don't conform to the first type of Applehead in my opinion.
Which type of applehead are you aiming to produce?
 
#42 ·
Your kittens look to have completely different coats - much longer. Their coats are also rather shady, looks like they will get dark very young. If you want to breed traditional style Siamese that is fine but it would be a lot easier if you started with genuine traditional style Siamese instead of a pair of approximate look alike.
 
#45 ·
OrientalSlave said:
The following might be of interest - note Julia's comment that they were pet quality kittens even back in 1971:

Palantir Cats - the first litter
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ooh thanks, love a bit of meezer history :) Julia was an smacking breeder, did so much for the breed with her crossing this and that.

Interesting that back then you could show and even breed unregistered cats!
 
#46 ·
I've been following this thread with interest, for no other reason than that I am really interested in the Siamese breed.
My first impression of the photos at the beginning was that these kittens are not Siamese nor do they look anything like a Siamese.
Happy to be proved wrong. Still reading :)
 
#47 · (Edited)
moggie14 said:
I've been following this thread with interest, for no other reason than that I am really interested in the Siamese breed.
My first impression of the photos at the beginning was that these kittens are not Siamese nor do they look anything like a Siamese.
Happy to be proved wrong. Still reading :)
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Since apparently they are not registered there isn't any proof that they are Siamese.
 
#48 ·
I have never ever seen Siamese that look like those...


Also you bought a male and female... You will need to keep the separated as he could mate her too young, he may also start spraying and pooing in your house for girls, 1 girl will probably not be enough for him...

Totally pointless from my point of view, just do it properly, most kittens in litters go to pet homes, you can only keep so many, but they are bred with a purpose and planning and health in mind, not just cute kittys churning out as pets, you also cant sell them as Siamese as that isn't true they have no papers, they are domestic or moggies.

You don't need to show to be a good breeder, having standards and doing it properly is a good enough start!
 
#49 ·
MollyMilo said:
ooh thanks, love a bit of meezer history :) Julia was an smacking breeder, did so much for the breed with her crossing this and that.

Interesting that back then you could show and even breed unregistered cats!
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She was fortunate to be breeding when some interesting programs were running, but these were well-thought out programs which had a clear aim in mind, not just random outcrosses. There were some unexpected results but that's the nature of experiments.

She also looks to have had at least one 'oops' litter and did test matings to investigate the behaviour of the Burmese / Siamese / Recessive white gene variants, and to clear some of her cats of being overstamped 'may carry longhair'. Thankfully we can simply send a check swab off these days.

Siamese are no longer an accepted outcross for Devon Rex but their legacy lives on in the Sirex (pointed Devon Rex) and those with darker points - Tonkinese colouring.
 
Discussion starter · #50 ·
Taylorbaby said:
I have never ever seen Siamese that look like those...

Also you bought a male and female... You will need to keep the separated as he could mate her too young, he may also start spraying and pooing in your house for girls, 1 girl will probably not be enough for him...

Totally pointless from my point of view, just do it properly, most kittens in litters go to pet homes, you can only keep so many, but they are bred with a purpose and planning and health in mind, not just cute kittys churning out as pets, you also cant sell them as Siamese as that isn't true they have no papers, they are domestic or moggies.

You don't need to show to be a good breeder, having standards and doing it properly is a good enough start!
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You probably haven't, but there are lots of Siamese in my area that look exactly like them. Registered ones too!

And of course I will be separating them - I stated earlier in this thread that I am getting another cat house and within a month or two will be separating them. Not much danger of them mating at 2 1/2 months!! I am prepared for spraying - my cat house in made out of insulated metal panels.

If people ask if they are purebreds, I will tell them I believe they are and the breeders said they are, but do not have the papers to prove it. Most people in our area are looking for a beautiful, well raised and socialized, healthy, happy kitten. Their first concern isn't always the papers.
 
#51 ·
Just out of interest, do you have any photographs of the parents?

Or their pedigree names if you saw papers for them, I know the kittens don't have papers but their parents might have done?
 
Discussion starter · #52 ·
I have a picture of the mother of Alaska. I didn't see papers, no. I do have their phone numbers though, so I may ask if I could get more information on that. I'll attach Alaska's mother's picture. :)
 

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#53 ·
They are very sweet colour point Moggies. It is false advertising to sell them as Siamese without papers although many back yard breeders do.

Rescues are full of Moggies needing good homes, you are just adding to the problem by not doing it properly. I don't believe you can't get hold of a breeding registered queen if your dad was a Siamese breeder. It's not that difficult or impossible although you may have to put some work in.

What you are doing is immoral in my opinion.
 
#54 ·
Lunabuma said:
They are very sweet colour point Moggies. It is false advertising to sell them as Siamese without papers although many back yard breeders do.

Rescues are full of Moggies needing good homes, you are just adding to the problem by not doing it properly. I don't believe you can't get hold of a breeding registered queen if your dad was a Siamese breeder. It's not that difficult or impossible although you may have to put some work in.

What you are doing is immoral in my opinion.
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I think you have confused me with the OP!
My dad was a siamese breeder, but unless I have missed a post, I don't think the OP's dad was.
 
Discussion starter · #55 ·
It isn't my dad who was the breeder - that was Sparkle's. And of course we are both entitled to our own opinions. I respect yours. I have worked out an planned this out carefully. I also would not be against spaying and neutering them if this does not work out. I also have no intention of lying to people - I will let them know I cannot prove they are pure breds. I won't be forging papers or something stupid!
 
#56 ·
This is about Julia and nothing about Canadian Siamese kittens. Sorry. The cinnamon lines were shunned because of the overstampings 'may carry longhair' (from the sorrel abyssinian used to investigate 'red' abys) and the 'may carry recessive white' (from Maureen Silson's desire to investigate recessive whites.)

When Julia acquired Red Fred, she wanted to remove the longhair overstamping from her cats and she offered him to others to do the same. Then she concentrated on promoting the Angoras (now called Oriental Longhairs) because she preferred to blaze a trail and leave others to work on type.

She encouraged breeders to mate their orientals to remove the recessive white overstamping which is easy to do but there are still cats overstamped. Some have not been cleared but some should have had the overstamping removed but apparently the GCCF office has no clue about it. (If she were still here, she would soon sort them out!)
 
#58 ·
Alaska's mother is very beautiful, no doubt about that.

I still feel that the coat is wrong, however, putting that aside, a bigger concern for me that I was thinking about last night, is Alaska has very obviously thick, rather long hair.

This is not typical for a Siamese.
Although a long coated variant of Siamese (Balinese) does exist, the gene for short coat is dominant to long coat.
Long coated Siamese kittens are rarely thrown because of this, in order to have long hair both parents must either carry the gene for it or one needs to actually be longhair themself.
Any breeding cats that throw longcoats would be removed from a breeding programme by the overwhelming majority of Siamese breeders.

I find it concerning that both of your kittens are exhibiting the same coat type, I actually wonder, if the father of Alaska or Kiera has been used at stud by other backyard breeders without your knowledge.
If so, it is plausible that your cats are half siblings.

I also wonder, if the parents of Alaska and / or Kiera have produced kittens before.
If so, I wonder if a breeder bought one of those kittens to add to their breeding programme and either Alaska or Kiera was one of the results.

As you are adamant on breeding them, I would actually suggest DNA testing them first as I find it odd that two kittens from different parents would both have the same coat type so untypical of the breed.
 
#59 ·
Azura said:
It isn't my dad who was the breeder - that was Sparkle's. And of course we are both entitled to our own opinions. I respect yours. I have worked out an planned this out carefully. I also would not be against spaying and neutering them if this does not work out. I also have no intention of lying to people - I will let them know I cannot prove they are pure breds. I won't be forging papers or something stupid!
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How can you have worked this out and planned it carefully, it's totally random. :confused:

How much are you going to sell these moggies for? Are you expecting to make money?
 
#60 ·
Alaska's mother is definitely not a longhair but she does have a shaggy coat. I am afraid thicker coats do appear even on show Siamese lines and should be penalised but sometimes breeders (and judges) have different priorities. Sometimes in this country, they are attempting to breed cats whose ears grow out of their neck rather than their head.

If Azura is happy breeding pet cats that look like hers, a shaggy coat is not a problem and can look beautiful. The only worthwhile DNA test would be for PRA. There could be any number of anomalies in the kittens but we have to recognise that these things happen in pedigree cats as well. However careful you are you can never be sure that you will not have problems.

(By the way, to breed a longhair cat both parents must pass on a longhair gene to the offspring.)
 
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