I hope @tabelmabel doesn't mind if I piggyback here too rather than starting a whole new thread.

I got inspired and ordered a quieter dremel with a light, should be here Tuesday.
In the meantime some photos to see if I can show progress:

Penny's nails the day I caught her:

So much for hard surfaces wearing nails down. She was on a road mainly and hard-packed sun-baked ground, wandering around most of the day, and her nails still looked like this!

Nails today after about 6 months of taking little bits off once a week.

And hind feet:

There is plenty of ground clearance, but she definitely clicks on the laminate floor when she walks.
Here are her front feet from the side:

Penny has nice, tight cat feet so her nails pull in when she stands, but like I said, she still clicks on the laminate, so I'm going to see if I can get them a little shorter. And she jumps up on my legs and that's not going to be as cute in the summer when we're all in shorts. I know I know, shite dog trainer isn't bothered by dog jumping up :Bag

I don't want to go dog-show short though because she is a digger and a climber and she does need some nail. We'll just see how it goes

 

No, i dont mind at all. We can try communications on the nail thread and see if small steps work as well for us as they do for our dogs:Hilarious:Hilarious

 

Here are Fly's nails. I don't do them as often as I should, and they could do with a trim, but for a sighthound they are good and I do allow some length as he needs the traction.

Front feet. The outer toe nails are always longer as they don't wear down naturally as much as the middle 2 toes.

Back feet. Naturally wear down more than the front as he pushes off with his back legs. Again the out 2 toes are slightly longer.

And here just to show the length when relaxed.

Granted I am quite on top of nipping the ends off when needed so they look fairly good for a hound if I do say so myself! All the lurchers and sighthounds I see tend to have super long nails, and considering they are prone to corns and foot issues I'd have thought people could at least try and keep the nails slightly shorter.
@Beth78 what are Whisp's like lengthwise? If they are super long and you are struggling I'd honestly get the vets to cut them back so you can start afresh. Or if you have a groomer friend who could have a go? Sometimes people who do it all the time and are super confident can just get on with it without the dog worrying. I do it at work all the time when people come in and ask us to do the nails while the dog stays. They can't do it at home and we just spend 5 mins and get them done no fuss! Never have an issue!

 

Fly's feet are a good example of hare feet
Yeah, those side nails are hard to keep short.

I'll try to get a shot of Bates' feet, I hate how long they are compared to what they used to look like back when he was younger.
I swear old dog nails grow harder and faster than young dog nails, and of course diminished activity doesn't help either.
I still manage to keep them well off the ground though.

I did find an old photo of what it looks like when you quick them with a dremel. Like I said, none of my guys even flinch when I've quicked them with a dremel, they don't even notice, and you don't need anything to stop the bleeding. I think dremeling helps the quick recede better too as you can get a lot closer to it without any discomfort to the dog.

This is a dane foot, it's easy to see everything, you can see the shell that wraps around, the pulpy part inside, and within the pulpy part is the quick.
You can still clip or dremel that top part of the nail above the quick to help it recede.

 

The new dremel came!! Well, it came yesterday and I had to charge it. Today I used it.
OMG!!! The right tool for the job makes a massive difference. It took me half as long to dremel Bates this afternoon. Fastest job yet.

This is the dremel I got and it's got enough power to grind though Bates super tough nails and the lower speed was fine for Penny. I even managed a few toes on her. It's as quiet as an electric toothbrush. She didn't mind the noise at all. And if she is busy eating I can get a few touches in before she even notices.
Yay!!

Bates nails today after a quick dremel.
Front feet:

Rear feet:
In this first photo below, you can really see how even when he leans forward to shift his weight, his nails clear the ground well, and all of his toe pad can make contact with the ground without interference. For old guys who don't have the best balance anyway, that's so important.

 

Oh yes very nice nails indeed Excellent job!

This is the dremel I got

Did you forget to post a pic of your dremmel

Not much progress with Tilly. She is totally not scared of the dremmel - even trying to sniff it in the high speed position today and she could probably do with a few inches taken off that nose of hers. Gets her into so much bother.

It hasnt been anywhere near a paw of course - we're nowhere near that. Im just trying to get her more relaxed in her position. I was getting somewhere yesterday, then my daughter came in and up jumped Till. She is like a cat on hot bricks.

Today i made mention of the game on position to tilly and out pops murph from behind his chair! Any chance of a treat and out he comes. He is an expert at demonstrating the relaxed position.

Bit worried about these treats i got. Really cheap - i just picked up a few bags of junk cheapy treats at B&M. Both dogs had about 5 each yesterday. And later Tilly was very quiet and subdued - had taken herself off to a room on her own.

And that is not normal behaviour at all for her.

So i started to use the same ones today and then it dawned on me.

In the frame for potential causes are

A) these treats

B) a rotten fish she rolled in on Monday. Though she was fine all Monday.

If she subdues to the point of unconsciousness, i will whip off all her nails before getting her along to the vet

 

Snap! Exactly the same as mine - that is SG's recommended beginner one - she also uses a branded dremmel dremmel.

Jo told me you had a new dog last summer i think. I cant remember. This year has been a bit of a blur. I think i did know. Maybe.

 

I just re-read her nail blog and yup, that's exactly the one I got. The diamond tip is nice too. I did buy a diamond tip for my dremel years ago for the danes because I was having to change sandpaper after two toes. Plus the sandpaper gets a lot hotter than the diamond tip does.

Nail blog post for anyone who hasn't seen it:
https://susangarrettdogagility.com/2013/08/cutting-your-dogs-nails-how-important-is-it-really/
The video is well worth a watch. She's very right about old dogs, Bates nails at times have been longer than I would like and it absolutely makes a difference in how much he's willing to do and even where he's willing to walk. I know it's time for nails when he starts getting reluctant to cross the stream or walk on the gravel driveway.

And yup, have a new dog, a little swamp rat meth puppy thing we found on the side of the road and I spent about a week getting close enough so I could finally catch her. She's a hot mess as the kids would say, but she's a ton of fun too

 

I've done well with murphy's back ones. I cant say he is that comfortable with having it done. We just went for the distraction technique. I have been at his front ones but he is not as willing on those and pulled away so they need another go.

Tilly is going to be a tricky customer. She is ok with ears and mouth inspection. But her feet and bottom end are super sensitive. If she gets and brambles or anything stuck in her butt hair when walking, she wont let me pull them out; she has to bite them out herself. I should have started on this years ago. But she is still only 3 so there is time yet hopefully.

I keep looking at her nails now though and want them lopped off but im going to have to keep calm and slowly slowly. The only way with tilly is going to be getting her on side. Im not going to risk any distraction techniques. Im sticking to working on getting her relaxed with handling.

 

If she is fine with the grinder @Beth78 - just grind them shorter. Some of murphy's were pretty long but the grinder is pretty effective if you kind of rotate your hand in a back and forth arch as you go over the nail top.

I have got murphy's back ones really good over about 3 sessions.

It's trusting your vet too isnt it - im pretty sure my vet would just go right to murph with the clipper and he'd come out set right back.(as in nail clipper terror!)

How sedated are they at the vet @Sarah H - could that work for Tilly?

I think she would need a full knock out. She would fight with all her might.

Is whisp good and chilled at the vet, beth?

 

Yes I grind her nails twice a week, maybe I just need to do it every day as they are still long.

Whisp is ok at the vets, the only trouble she has had was the cut quick which she squealed at the vet for.

 

Shes absolutely fine with the nail grinder and the odd treat,

That's great!
Your other posts on here made me think she wouldn't even let you touch her paws, but if she's fine with the grinder, keep grinding.
When she stands are the nails off the ground?

 

That's great!
Your other posts on here made me think she wouldn't even let you touch her paws, but if she's fine with the grinder, keep grinding.
When she stands are the nails off the ground?

Yeah just about off the ground, looking at her quick on her 1 light nail the claw is about 1mm off the quick so I dont know how much shorter they will actually go.

But will change to daily trimmings and see how we go.
Yeah she will let you do anything with her feet, massage, wash, grind, but once the clippers come out she freaks.

Sorry if I offended you back there by the way, I haven't and wont read it back but think I was in a "weird" mood back there.
So yeah, no offense meant.

 

Major progress with tilly today. For the first time she was able to lie in her position with her head down and be stroked all over, including right down each leg to all paws!!!

That is massive for her! I cant say she was floppy and jelly like relaxed but i think she was starting to enjoy it! I cant believe how far we have come just in a few days.

Still miles to go of course but that was the best by far just now

 

Lols - i think murph is trying to tell me he is ready for that front paw:

Murphs' nose was well out of joint when till cracked what he already finds easy.

So now he has his front foot over mine with his nails proferred ready for grinding!

He always had to go one better than Till. Such a show off!

 

Success with murphs!! He is silent now on the kitchen floor! It's so weird to see him walking about with no tip tapping at all.

He will feel so much better for that, im sure.

 

Yay for no clicking!
It is nice isn't it? I loved the sound of the danes padding about the kitchen, you could hear their pads but never the toes. Bates sometimes gets long enough that I hear a few nails click, but it's a dull sound because his nails are so big. Penny's constant tip tip tip tip as she scavenges about at least isn't annoying, but I'm ready for her nails to be short enough that we don't hear her either.

And I'm interested if you notice any difference in his comfort levels.

 

And I'm interested if you notice any difference in his comfort levels

I'm keen to see if it makes a difference too and im very hopeful it will. Because, when murph does walk on tarmac, his back feet do sort of look like he is walking with his feet scrunched up.

I just assumed it was pain from his hips but im thinking more likely the poor lad had really sore toes!!

It has been quite an eye opener for me, this. Both my dogs are out every single day whatever the weather. Never miss a single day and murph does at least at hour off lead. And Tills too - she puts in a good mileage every single day. It just shows that their nails really dont stay short enough with exercise.

How has it taken me 8 years to learn this?!

Out of interest, @O2.0 - does your nail grinder say 'cusfuy' anywhere on it? I got mine through Amazon u.k. and it works fine and looks identical to the picture shown but it came in a plain white box with no brand name. The instructions were written in very poor English. As well as lots of other languages.

And i instantly thought 'fake product' It wasnt expensive and it all works really well. Just interested to know if yours came in a box with the brand name or if it has the brand name anywhere marked on it. I want to know if i have been scammed:Sour

 

They look fab @Beth78 , in an older pic somewhere they looked really long, but if they're like that I'd just grind them every few days as suggested (no point doing too often as you won't give the quick time to recede).

@tabelmabel I think it would depend on the dog as to how much sedative they would need? Some might be OK lightly dozing whereas others would need to be knocked out. If you are making progress I'd not worry about it for now, but it's something I'd think about if you think it's going to be an issue.

 

Thanks @Sarah H - i think tills would need fully knocked out. Im really encouraged by her progress today so who knows, though it seems impossible right now, she might well one day love her nail trims!

 

None if mine love it! But the for sure will just let me get on with it which is all I want really.
Have you tried a scratch board? Get some sandpaper and attach it to a bit of wood and teach her to file her own nails.

 

I'm the opposite and don't gel with her at all! It doesn't help that in the back of my mind I always have the comments about her that my very good friend made when she attended one of her workshops. Let's just say it wasn't a great experience...so she isn't my favourite go-to trainer! I don't hate her or anything, she's just not quite my style and although I like her work I don't like her way of teaching or personality.

 

It doesn't help that in the back of my mind I always have the comments about her that my very good friend made when she attended one of her workshops.

I can well believe it - i came across some talk on a forum where someone overheard her mean spirited comments about a fellow agility competitor. I dont think she suffers fools gladly and i think she would be very intimidating irl.

She scares me enough online tbh! Apart from having me do brownies honour, she made me jump out of my skin once when she looked into her lens and called my name!!!

Omg i thought i had accidently stumbled into a live chat!! (I hadn't, someone else same name)

But, for someone like me whose attention to detail is poor, the brilliant thing about susan is how she tightens up all those little details in the mechanics which i would never ever notice on my own. And i am the sort of person that likes a no nonsense direct approach.

Also, the way i have my two in the house was already aligned with susan's methods. My dogs were already sorted with place training, crate training, waiting politely to be fed and all that stuff. The basics were well established but susan's stuff really helped me push all those skills further.

I do really like her - and Tilly definitely does!

 

I like a lot of SG's stuff, her blogs are very informative, but she's a little too "this way is the only way" for me.
But I definitely identify with her obsession with nails.
I can't remember when I started my own nail obsession, but I do remember knocking back my old man's nails and seeing how much better he was, that was late 90's maybe? But I've been obsessed ever since.
I've let Bates' nails get too long at times and I feel awful about it, particularly when I get them back down and he's a thousand times better on the very next walk.

Penny's nails are well of the ground and there are definitely no mobility issues there either, but she does click on the floor.
I'm not sure how short I want to go with her, she climbs trees and digs to China looking for rodents. I'll just have to see how things go.

 

but she's a little too "this way is the only way" for me.

Im very much like this myself:Hilarious

She probably has a total belief that her way is the best. And i can totally identify with that feeling

 

Yes she's very straight talking and to the point, which I can see works for some people, but she's probably a bit intimidating for me!

 

My dremel arrived earlier in the week.
Have had it on, and attracted a cat who wanted to stick her face on it!, and Tilly didn't bat an eye.
Moved it back and forth on her nails without it on and she didn't care although she does get bored easily and I'll probably find she wanders off a lot.
She also didn't care with me 'pinching' each toe.
Now I just need to work up the courage to use it! People make it look so easy.

 

Now I just need to work up the courage to use it! People make it look so easy

If your Tilly is co operative already, you're there! It is super simple to use. Just hold it against each nail. I did a kind of moving arc motion over each nail tip. You will be surprised how easy it is!

Good luck

 

I will try to get a video up at some point this weekend.
I'm off to do some kids/dogs stuff, then I'll be gone all day tomorrow but maybe Sunday I can get something going.
Bates is so cooperative, and now that I have a quiet dremel I can talk and explain while dremeling

 

I will try to get a video up at some point this weekend.

Ooh that sounds good It's like PF nail club on here now with resident expert in situ! How wonderful!

 

That'd be great, thank you.

 

Okay, hopefully this isn't too terrible of a video and it makes some sense!

 

Thanks - that’s really helpful. He is such a patient lad.

 

What a masterclass! Very helpful, thank you. Loving Bates' facial expressions - classic:Hilarious

His nails look identical to murphs' as they are black too so that was useful to see what will happen around the black pulp part in a few days. I have kept the guard on my grinder for now.

Murphs isnt anything like as relaxed as Bates but, compared to Tills, he is positively zen-like.

 

Loving Bates' facial expressions - classic:Hilarious

I love that the thumbnail ended up being him giving me the side-eye :Hilarious

Glad it was helpful!

 

I haven't properly read all of this thread, just sort of skimmed it. So just replying to various comments that particularly stood out to me rather than quoting specific people.

1) Like @tabelmabel I dremel my piggy nails, and they're farrrrrr easier than dog nails, even black piggy nails. But this is partly due to how they grow - there's is some shaping on the underneath of the nail that grows over the bottom when overgrown, much like the cleats of goats/sheep/cows. So you can flatten that off first, and then that gives you the angles to show where the quick will be in the remaining triangle shape - again exactly how you'd trim ruminants and pigs. Dogs do not come with this hack! I use the rotary tool of the design @O2.0 linked to, because the dimensions/ size is small enough to be flexible enough with the smaller scale. There's a tonne of brands that make them to the same design.

2) Someone said you need to do little and often to get the quick to back up, stating every 3-4 days. I would add to this that this time interval is very dependent on dogs, as I have to do Cad's every other day to get the quick to recede as every 3 days is too long an interval. My advice if you're doing a dremel or scratchboard would be to start at every day, and then when you've caught up with the quick and nail growth after a few days of this and each day you're taking basically nothing off, drop it to every 2 days. And then again drop it to every 3 etc. This method will allow you to find the perfect interval for your individual dog. If you're using clippers you can do this if you're experienced, but the risk of accidentally quicking before you figure out the interval is higher. It can really help if the 'off' days when you're not doing nails, if you still do foot handling stuff and pretend nail clipping.

3) Dogs are better at wearing down their own back nails than their fronts. Because each stride of when they run they're pushing off with their back feet. I like to use the analogy of pushing off from the wall in a swimming pool. Obviously if your dog is only running on mud this won't do much due to how soft it is, but any sort of dry/ hard surface will help friction-wise. So when you're figuring out the intervals of how frequently you need to go, you gotta treat the front feet as one thing and the back feet as another. It's unlikely that there'll be the same interval for getting the quick to back up for both pairs.

4a) People with fluffy dogs where the dogs nails are only barely longer than the fluff, it can be a good idea to desensitise your dog to having one of those nets you get citrus fruit in over their paw. This sort of works like a hairnet and pulls most of the hair back giving you better sight lines and ensuring that slippery hair doesn't knock your angles off.
4b) People with WH dogs may be better off trimming the toehair, as the wireyness of the hair shaft doesn't always get pulled back from the nail with the net hack. This hack was shared with me by the owner of a WH PRT who I now go to for all my Cad grooming questions! I've found that I only really need to trim Cad's toehair while I'm actively backing the quick past the end of the hair length - once it's got a bit shorter I can let it grow and it doesn't impede, cos the end of both hair and nails is staggered again. I use blunted thread snips for Cad, as only having to press to have the blades meet and then they automatically open again is much easier for me.

 

I would add to this that this time interval is very dependent on dogs,

In the video I posted and my post to @Beth78 where I tried to show the alternate cut line, I mention that you can tell if the nails are ready for another trim by feeling for outer shell part of the nail to be longer than the center pulpy part. Penny's nails are to small for me to actually see the difference, but I can feel it.
When you first dremel and smooth the nail bottoms off, it will be level. Feel the nail every day and when you can tell that the inner pulpy part has receded, you can dremel again.

Of course this system only works if you're really smoothing the bottoms, rounding out the sides, and knocking the top off. I think of it like sharpening a pencil with a knife. You file the wood parts away at an angle so you can get that inner part sticking out. Obviously you're not going to sharpen nails to a sharp tip, but you do want to file away at the sides to get the pulp sticking out enough to encourage it to dry up and back up in to the nail.

This photo really shows the nail anatomy well.

 

Thanks for that great post, Torin. So many great tips on there I'm going to be an oracle on nails before Tilly lets me near hers:Hilarious

I dont dremmel my pig's nails (yes, that is still pig singular; i'm having a heck of a job with bondings)

I use human nail clippers. What is so easy with pigs though is that they dont struggle against it - pick them up, position and snip snap snip!

Going to try Belle with a 5week old later today @Torin. This will be her final chance at a proper friend.