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Yes another what colour post

Discussion in 'Cat Breeding' started by Fendi, Feb 14, 2021.


  1. Fendi

    Fendi PetForums Junior

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    Hi as you may know I’m still new to breeding. I have a wonderful breeder/mentor who is guiding me. We spoke about colours and I honestly got a thumping headache trying to comprehend it :(

    I was chatting with another breeder regarding a male stud that is golden black tipped (chinchilla) who advised me that to get any golden Brits kittens BOTH parents need to be golden. I felt like she was trying to confuse me. I was quite upfront with her and mentioned that I still get confused about colourings & things like. agouti and she replied “what’s agouti?”. anyway long story short is she correct about only 2 golden brits can have golden kittens bc from my research I didn’t think it was as simple as that. But hey, I’m only new so what would I know lol :Joyful

    the good news my beautiful baby is with my breeder (and her champion stud boy) this week. Fingers crossed it goes well. I’m really nervous for her, miss her terribly and I’m scared it might not go well bc it’s her very first mating.
     
  2. QOTN

    QOTN PetForums VIP

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    I was not a persian breeder so I cannot answer completely because you need to know if the chinchilla is pure for silver. Silver is a dominant gene so only needs a gene from one parent to be expressed. The golden is the non-silver tipped version as I am sure you know. The very fact they exist shows there were hererozygous cats in the breed. You could look at the breeding policy to discover if they are still recognised. If a chinchilla has a golden parent it can have golden offspring either from a golden cat or another chinchilla with a single silver gene. Even if it has two silver parents, it may still have only one silver gene. Last time I heard there was still a problem isolating a gene for silver so it's not possible to test to find out.

    What reply did you give to the 'What's agouti' question? It is a bit worrying if the person was a chinchilla breeder.
     
  3. lillytheunicorn

    lillytheunicorn PetForums VIP

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    Golden’s are agouti cats with the wide band gene. If you add in the inhibitor gene you get a silver coloured cat. You need two copies of the wide band gene to get a tipped (chinchilla) cat.
    So I presume from a pure genetics point of view you can mate a tipped heterozygous silver cat (one silver and one non silver parent) to a golden tipped cat where both parents have 2 wide band genes all kittens would be be tipped. With 50% being silver and 50% golden. Whether that would be recognised by the breed registration policy and whether the colour is affected by other genes and polygenes such as rufuosing I do not know.
     
  4. Fendi

    Fendi PetForums Junior

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    i didn’t expand on the on the subject matter bc she surprised me with another comment: I spoke about how it took forever to get blood work for my queen (COVID is obviously impacting the postage process), you know, to ensure that my queen and the stud would be compatible & all that and she wanted to know why I needed to get blood work o_O

    She’s a registered breeder, but I don’t think she’s quite ‘professional’ if that makes sense. I got the sense that she’s very errr, laid back. my breeder/mentor is in her late 60’s & has been a cat judge in NZ so she’s teaching me the VERY correct way to do things.
     
  5. Fendi

    Fendi PetForums Junior

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    Oh no I just read this...
    Generally, several matings are required (8-12 copulations or more), often over a period of days, before the female cat becomes stimulated enough to ovulate her eggs

    8 - 12 times?? :( My breeder called me - she hasn’t seen them do it :( She’s been peeking in on them but my baby girl is giving him the complete cold shoulder. I think it will be lucky if he gets 1 go at her!!
     
  6. QOTN

    QOTN PetForums VIP

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    Some girls take with only one mating but obviously it is better to have plenty of possibilities since trips to stud can be a real problem to arrange. Having said that I more than once collected a girl having been told she failed to mate when she has gone on to have kittens.

    I misread your original post. Sorry. Still my reply about silver would be the same for BSH goldens. I have just had a look at the GCCF Registration Policy. Apparently all sorts of British can be used to breed silver or golden tippeds including selfs and torties so I imagine that the existence or otherwise of the silver gene is less important than their agouti status.

    If the breeding policy of your organisation is the same I don't think breeding from two goldens will necessarily guarantee goldens. At least you can test for the Agouti gene.
     
  7. QOTN

    QOTN PetForums VIP

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    I am very out of touch. Has a wide band major gene actually been discovered? The last time I heard, the researchers had come to a dead end.
     
  8. lillytheunicorn

    lillytheunicorn PetForums VIP

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    Sheep’s first litter was a complete surprise to both me and my mentor. I dropped Sheep over to her about 9pm at night and by the next morning she was out of call and nothing had been heard or seen. We suspected the 1 1/2hr car journey knocked her out. She stayed for another 2 weeks but didn’t call (not that unusual for her as it was generally 6-8 weeks between calls) so we took her home. She had 5 kittens from that brief encounter.

    Second mating of sheep she screamed the place down every time she was mated ??
     
  9. lillytheunicorn

    lillytheunicorn PetForums VIP

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    They haven’t found the gene but breeding a tipped to tipped gives you all tipped offspring. Shaded to shaded will give you occasional tipped cats.
     
  10. Tigermoon

    Tigermoon PetForums VIP

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    Nope, she's wrong, two silver cats can have goldens. I've bred many a golden this way. It depends entirely on whether the silver cat is homozygous or heterozygous for silver or not.
    This is wrong as well. My current boy rarely mates a girl more than two or three times, but I get 4 kittens on average every pregnancy.
    Ahh, well now. Having looked into this myself I did find something that indicated that the 'silver' gene was found around a decade ago, however the problem with cats is we don't just have 'silver', we have levels of silver and it is the gene/genes responsible for the amount of tipping (the so-called wideband gene) that is proving problematic.
     
    #10 Tigermoon, Feb 14, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2021
  11. QOTN

    QOTN PetForums VIP

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    Orientals had both shaded and tipped when those varieties were first introduced into the breed but eventually the tipped was discontinued because of the variability of the so called wide band expression. I think the ticked gene is considered the best tabby pattern for producing tipped but how can a tipped to a tipped inevitably produce all tipped unless it is recessive? I can understand it could be the case in Chinchilla and Golden Persians because presumably they are no longer crossed with other varieties.
     
  12. David C

    David C PetForums Senior

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    We have always had kittens born from one or two matings. We only do supervised matings and one a day two days on the run so we know exactly when kittens are due and we have never not had a pregnancy. We also mate on day 4 and 5 of our queens calls when they are calling good and strong.
     
  13. lillytheunicorn

    lillytheunicorn PetForums VIP

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    Though
    Smoke’s vary immensely and they don’t have the wide band gene.

    My secret silver, a high grade silver from three generations of non silver is likely due to very poor silver in blue cats. As we only have 5 points for colour in FIFe and none in GCCF, we generally don’t breed for colour. So low grade silvers aren’t removed from the gene pool.

    There is always exceptions to the rules as we still have a lot to discover. Like my girl who has been looked at by multiple GCCF / FIFe / TICA judges and is deemed to be with white (has white bikini) but does not have the known white spotting gene and is from a blue cream dam and blue mackerel sire. She is though to have the unknown ‘recessive’ gene.
     
  14. Tigermoon

    Tigermoon PetForums VIP

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    Don't they?? How do you know?? The grade of silver is undoubtedly due to something as yet undiscovered, and widebanding (which is a speculation at the end of the day) may have nothing to do with agouti and therefore affect all silver cats, smokes included.

    As for white, only two spotting genes have been isolated, and it is believed that other unknown genes control placement of the white patches. However the majority involved in white spotting remain to be found.
     
  15. lillytheunicorn

    lillytheunicorn PetForums VIP

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    Yep as you say we know very little, except I can say the poor silvers we have in NFO are a complete pain. Cats change colour between shows and you get random coloured kittens.

    I was told my girl was a recessive white by a couple of judges......
     
  16. QOTN

    QOTN PetForums VIP

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    Non-silvers have the so called wide band gene. If they didn't Goldens and, in Orientals, standard shaded, would not exist. It is possible for a well marked tabby mated to a self to produce a shaded so presumably not linked to the Agouti gene. Roy Robinson thought the effect was caused by polygenes which would make sense. I saw a request for cats to take part in research but, since there are no tests to distinguish the different tabby patterns, (please correct me if I am out of date,) I wonder how soon these questions will be answered.

    In what we called the minor white spotting gene in Orientals and Siamese the white is restricted to bikini, armpits and locket. It must be either recessive or displaying impenetrance because of its random occurrence. @Tigermoon please can you tell me which white spotting genes have been identified?
     
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  17. lillytheunicorn

    lillytheunicorn PetForums VIP

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    @QOTN this was the white spotting that my girl was tested for.
    EB9813B8-0E95-48CA-A939-9123E24AF1AB.jpeg
    Before they ‘updated’ the website you could see which genes they had identified caused my the FERV1 insertion in the KIT gene however can’t find it but from memory it also looked at Birman gloving

    it was an oriental breeder / judge who said it was recessive white spotting.
     
    #17 lillytheunicorn, Feb 14, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2021
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  18. lillytheunicorn

    lillytheunicorn PetForums VIP

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    The white bikini, it was more obvious as a kitten when she had shorter fur. But she has the cream chest fur with white above and the white abdominal patch.
    B8BE4E9C-BEF9-4F19-8378-8174B916C4C7.jpeg 8F1B3760-843A-4843-A0DF-C343F5488084.jpeg
     
  19. QOTN

    QOTN PetForums VIP

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    @lillytheunicorn I can't imagine which oriental judge could say your girl was a recessive white. That is complete nonsense. A recessive white is completely white with blue eyes. The gene is at the same locus as full colour, then Burmese colour restriction, then Siamese colour restriction, then recessive white, then albino in order of dominance.

    Thank you for the info about the white spotting. I cannot imagine the minor white spotting gene I mentioned and which your girl seems to possess will be identified since it is simply an irritation to breeders and will never provide a specific breed. I did not realise that the Dominant White gene had also been identified. Thank you for bringing me up to date.
     
  20. lillytheunicorn

    lillytheunicorn PetForums VIP

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    Sorry I missed (or deleted by mistake) the spotting off recessive white spotting. She can’t be a recessive white as we don’t have the colour restriction mutations in NFO.
     
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