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Yeast (?) in the ears + recurrence

Discussion in 'Dog Health and Nutrition' started by labradrk, Feb 28, 2017.


  1. labradrk

    labradrk PetForums VIP

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    Ok when Juno was about 9 months she had a bog standard ear infection. Black gunk, smelly, itchy. A very reluctantly applied course of anti biotics cleared it up.

    Only that every 8-12 weeks since then she seems to have the black waxy stuff return, and it seems to alternate between ears. No strong smell (unlike the first time) and not hugely irritated by it, just the odd flap of the ear which alerts me to it. Putting some clearer seems to get rid of it. Last time I did it was before Christmas, so around 8 weeks ago. I have a glance down the ears every so often and he does just seem to creep up quickly.

    I'd like to knock it on the head, or at least try to. Having read about the link between yeasts in the diet and this sort of thing I wonder if there is a connection. She was weaned onto raw from the breeder, which I then continued with, before putting her onto dried/wet food. She's been fed mostly on Autarky which does have grains, yeasts, beet pulp etc. I wonder if putting her onto a grain free food that doesn't contain any of those things is worth an experiment? I don't particularly want to as I'm not exactly flushed with cash but it's worth a try I feel......

    Any other thoughts welcome.....
     
  2. smokeybear

    smokeybear PetForums VIP

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    Try removing as many carbs as possible (so not just grains) add a pre/probiotic such as Yudigest daily and Quistel ear cleaner
     
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  3. labradrk

    labradrk PetForums VIP

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    Any recommendations?

    this was what I was looking at:

    Composition: Freshly Prepared White Fish (25%), Sweet Potato, Potato, Dried Fish (12%), Chick Pea Flour, Tapioca, Dried Herring (8%), Salmon Oil (5%), Salmon Gravy, Tomato Pomace, Minerals, Vitamins, Yucca, Dried Apple, Carrot Flakes, Lovage Powder, Seaweed Meal, Dried Cranberry, Aniseed and Fenugreek, Camomile Powder, Burdock Root Powder, Peppermint, Dandelion Herb, Glucosamine (175 mg/kg), Methylsulfonylmethane (175 mg/kg), Chondroitin Sulphate (125 mg/kg), Thyme, Marjorm, Oregano, Parsley, Sage

    Not huge on carbs compared to some grain free......price of this is just about (but reluctantly!!) doable.....

    Shall do probiotics too, saw this suggested in my frantic Googling quests :D
     
  4. smokeybear

    smokeybear PetForums VIP

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    All I would say is that the sweet potato, potato, chick pea flour, tapioca, are lot of different carbs.

    If you look at the analysis it will give you carb content (remove protein, water and fat and what you are left with is carb content).

    Carrots are high in suger, as are apples,
     
  5. lullabydream

    lullabydream PetForums VIP

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    Am on my phone so can't find the article...but dogs naturally explained about grains/carbs in dog foods really well...yes rice has the most...but am sure potato wasn't far off for 'carb content' sweet potato was better, potato is so common in a lot of grain free foods as you know.

    It wasn't dissing either grain free diets but basically...just going 'grain free'for things like yeast infections would be pretty pointless...as smokeybear has stated...

    Am pretty much just being repetitive but might be worth reading up on the article, it was a good while a go, but am sure was to find.
     
  6. Sled dog hotel

    Sled dog hotel PetForums VIP

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    I'm wondering if it is yeast or just yeast, because in theory antibiotics wouldn't get rid of a yeast infection, they would work on bacterial infection or if there was a secondary bacterial infection aswell but they wouldn't work on yeast. It seems a bit odd too that it seems to alternate between ears. Ear mites alone will cause dark brown to even blackish discharge on their own but an ear mite infection can also come combined with bacterial and even yeast infection. The life cycle from egg to adult is about 3 weeks and the adults live for about 8 weeks. They feed in wax and debris in the ear canal.

    When you said you applied a course or originally of antibiotics was it ear drops and which one was it? Canaural is anti bacterial, anti fungal/yeast and also kills ear mites too, plus it also has an anti inflammatory in it as well. For ear mites you usually have to use it for at least 3 weeks to have a chance of killing them off completely because the life cycle is about 3 weeks and if you don't eradicate the whole cycle then it can start again. Surolan ear drops are the same they are multi use and deal with bacterial, yeast/fungal infections, also kill ear mites and again have an anti inflammatory in them to stop the itching and soreness. You also often use ear cleaner as well to clear out the discharge and debris as you go.

    If you haven't used either of these two ear drops, I'm wondering if its worth asking your vet about and trying one of these for a course of about 3/4 weeks to see if you can eradicate the problem completely. As both do bacterial/yeast/fungal/and also ear mites as well as dealing with any itching and inflammation while its working on the rest they should cover all eventualities whatever the cause may be and maybe a decent course will even get rid of it completely.

    One useful article I found ages ago and have posted before on candida albicans yeast infection may help. It goes through what you need to avoid in the diet and also things that you can give supplements wise like garlic, coconut oil, pre and pro biotics and other things that can help with yeast infections.

    http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static...ut+Oil.pdf?token=76FISVVyhVt53tl8yx0tzVvGBos=
     
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  7. Ceiling Kitty

    Ceiling Kitty Hides away from much through humour...

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    Pretty much all the available topical medications for ears contain antifungals TBH.
     
  8. wee man

    wee man PetForums VIP

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    Why did you change your puppy from a raw diet ? Did your puppy have these problems while he was on raw food?
    Could you consider a change back to the raw?
     
  9. labradrk

    labradrk PetForums VIP

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    Looking at the analysis it's roughly 55% non carb.....the rest carb.....:confused:

    Yes fair point, nutrition definitely isn't my speciality so it's all very interesting to me! I'll have a look for the article.

    The original course was Canural, I still have a bit (like Metacam it seems to be a permanent fixture in my medicine cupboard.......) and will put a dash in the syringe with the clearer. As I said one dose of this seems to get rid of it. The last one that flared up at Christmas was the right ear, this time it's the left ear....the recurring ear for some reason was always the right one, despite the original one she had the infection being the left one.......as I said there is no smell (possibly a slight whiff if you put your nose to it) but nothing offensive, no redness, no real discomfort bar the odd ear flap, just the black waxy stuff.

    Am I thinking trying her without grains (or carbs, which most grain free foods seem to contain an abundance of!) is a bit of a red herring then.....?
     
  10. labradrk

    labradrk PetForums VIP

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    She's not a puppy anymore, she's 16 months.

    I could consider a change back to raw but I physically do not have space for a freezer to accommodate the amounts she would need to eat, and also to enable me to bulk buy and thus make it cost effective. Small house ;) I'd certainly give it a go if I did but as I don't, it's not an option unfortunately. Plus I'd rather avoid going down the road of having multiple dogs on different diets, especially as I have to rely on others to do that often when I'm out at work (like my vegan sister, whom would be less than thrilled :D). That is why I was looking at different foods......
     
  11. Sled dog hotel

    Sled dog hotel PetForums VIP

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    I have found canaural good even for a really bad case of ear mites I had in a cat I adopted years ago. Because it does do yeast/fungal, bacterial, and ear mites though then its of course hard to know what is the exact problem might even be a combination problem that causes it. It does have an anti inflammatory in it too, which seems to quickly deal with any itching and inflammation which makes the ears more comfortable, but I think because of that sometimes I think you can get lead into a false sense of security thinking the whole problems solved when it needs much longer application to deal with things like bacteria, yeasts and earmites. I did have to use epiotic cleaner inbetween applying the canaural to clean all the stuff out as well.

    The only way I can think of to maybe avoid the carbs completely is to put her on a raw diet maybe and give that a trial.
     
  12. lullabydream

    lullabydream PetForums VIP

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    Some wet foods are pretty good... But Juno's size might be expensive.

    Nutrition is a minefield...you can't compare all 80:20 kibbles because not all are created equally...some use a lot of fresh ingredients which hypothetically you may need to feed more...however most of us could vouch that guidelines are just that and are over generous anyway. But they can be expensive anyway...

    When I read threads like this I feel so lucky about my Stan, he came to me with an absolute raging ear infection, and he stink. Even though his previous owners bathed him prior, I thought I was going to have a massive problem with him. The vets thought he would need a few goes at antibiotics but he had one course, and he was clear. However all I did was change his food, and we quickly discovered chicken was a major problem for him so I was lucky, that it might have been food related. He was under weight too but got told he eats like a horse, but am guessing he was also sick a lot on chicken based food, obviously dismissed by previous owners as that's what dogs do.
    However...he did smell totally repugnant my son refused to go near him at all. To me that was a 'yeast' overload.

    Hope Juno gets better, with her stunning beautiful ears, we don't want them hurting
     
  13. labradrk

    labradrk PetForums VIP

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    Can't do raw unfortunately, literally nowhere to put another freezer. The best I could do is try a high-end food, one that's a low percentage carbs, the 'best' ones seem to be only be 20% carbs or less so I guess it's worth a try.....

    Do you think it's worth using Advocate instead of Advantage to rule out any possibility of mites? I use Advantage because of price but obviously it doesn't cover mites unlike Advantage.....
     
  14. labradrk

    labradrk PetForums VIP

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    Yeah that's what I'm thinking re: food. I've never been one for expensive kibbles but I'm happy to experiment, and obviously if it works I'll continue it. It's such a minefield. Knowing my luck I'll drop a load on posh food and she'll turn her nose up :Hilarious
     
  15. lullabydream

    lullabydream PetForums VIP

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    You don't always have to...it's what suits your dog, your budget and lifestyle.

    I feed lilys kitchen dry to the minibeasts...not the best to be honest and expensive for what it is. Customer service I can't fault though...and Stan seems to thrive on it....and when I got Cleo she had major tear staining and feeding that and some wet from zooplus, and I also rotate purizon now Cleo's tear staining has disappeared. Tried orijen...all the reviews got rid of tear staining...Cleo did look like Cleopatra on that! I was mortified.

    Tess has been eating some food that's dead cheap from amazon for over a year, maybe two...it was costing £13 for 8kg. Anf holistic...that has not been in stock for months now, it was the only food she thrived on after colitis flare up where she practically went skin and bones. To be fair, I could buy it at something ridiculous at £50 for 13 kg, but after getting it so cheap for all this time, I refuse. Its grain free, but not great. Worked so well for her, now she's not on it, she has definitely lost condition, so its trial and error finding something to suit her, and not pay a fortune.
     
  16. Sled dog hotel

    Sled dog hotel PetForums VIP

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    Advocate is supposed to do ear mites too, if you use advantage every month anyway, I don't suppose it would hurt changing to advocate for a few months to see if it does make any difference.
    Canaural does work on ear mites too I used it successfully in a cat I adopted with awful ones and after a long enough course that did the trick, he didn't get them again so must have eradicated them completely. Its so long ago now I cant remember if the vet had a look at the discharge under a microscope to see if any were present or not, I believe you can often see them that way to confirm.

    You probably do already but if you don't I'm also wondering as she is prone to problems doing an ear clean on a regular maybe weekly basis. I was given epiotic to clean the ears along with the canaural. That's gentle enough to use as a maintenance clean as well as in conjunction with drops when there is infection or a problem. The canaural as you know is vet only, but the epiotic you can buy on line. If you don't do it already, that may be worth a go.

    https://www.medicanimal.com/medicanimal/images/products/promo/EpiOtic CL.pdf
     
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  17. Ceiling Kitty

    Ceiling Kitty Hides away from much through humour...

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    Okay.

    First, I would really, really avoid using single doses of Canaural. Like any antibiotic, it's designed to be used as a course. One-off intermittent doses predispose to bacterial resistance, which would be a real bummer if the original problem was indeed yeast rather than bacterial. It's a bit like taking one antibiotic tablet every now and then.

    In the UK at least, we have an absence of topical ear medications containing anti-fungal only. It's frustrating, because I'm sure there would be a great market for one, but sadly if we want to use medicated topicals for yeast otitis in dogs we have no choice but to treat with antibiotics as well, which are not always necessary.

    Some of the cleaners are purported to have good efficacy against Malassezia (the main yeast we see in ears). Otodine in particular is one that has always been highlighted to me by a guy working at the lab I used to use, who published a couple of papers on it.

    It would be helpful to confirm Malassezia otitis if this hasn't been done already; it's easy to do by making a smear of the waxy discharge and looking for the yeasts under the microscope. At the same time, ear mites and/or evidence of bacterial infection may be detected.

    If this is Malassezia otitis, then controlling the yeast is only part of the management.


    I was taught to view the pathogenesis of canine otitis in three categories - predisposing factors, primary factors and perpetuating factors.

    Predisposing factors are things that potentially increase a dog's risk of developing ear infections. Regularly getting water in the ears while swimming, hairy ear canals, polyps or tumours in the canal etc - all examples of predisposing factors.

    Obviously, while many dogs with such predispositions develop regular ear problems, others do not. Those that do are affected by one or more of the so-called 'primary factors' - diseases or events that actively cause otitis on their own, even in 'non-predisposed' ears.

    Examples of common primary factors are ear mites, foreign bodies, seborrhea (imbalance of sebum production) and allergies. Allergies are probably the most common inciting cause of recurrent otitis in dogs. The allergy could be to pollen, food, house dust mites... all manner of things, really. The work-up for such cases is the same as it would be for any allergic skin disease: rule out other causes, food trials, serology etc.

    Perpetuating factors are those that exacerbate existing ear disease and make it worse, or prevent it from resolving. These include bacterial infection, yeast infection and involvement of the middle ear. These in themselves can be even more itchy, painful or irritating than the inciting cause(s) and they can make everything worse.

    As you can see, yeasts are not generally considered a primary factor in canine otitis but a perpetuating factor. Controlling their numbers with anti-fungals or cleaners etc will help, but probably not solve, the ear problem. For some dogs, this is sufficient and regular cleaning etc will keep them happy and comfortable. For others, it's not enough and they still continue to suffer with the underlying condition, for example allergic disease, even when the yeast is controlled.

    Treatment of the primary factor(s) will obviously depend on each individual dog's case.


    If Malassezia otitis is confirmed, it makes sense to look into underlying reasons, as you are doing. If you can rule out mites and physical abnormalities of the ear such as foreign bodies/polyps etc, then allergic skin disease becomes a serious consideration, and management of this would depend on what she's allergic to (if you even know!).

    Regular cleaning may help control the yeast numbers in the meantime, or even in the long term if necessary. Malassezia can be really itchy in large numbers, especially in the unfortunate subset of dogs who have an allergy to Malassezia itself!
     
  18. leashedForLife

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    as CeilingKitty pointed out, there's a whole host of interlocking or interrelated factors that can be primary, 2ndary, or even tertiary causes - they can stack or be dependent on a prior condition. This time of year, it's unlikely Ur dog is plunging into swimming-depth water if U're in the UK - but for all i know, U have a winter-getaway in the Caribbean, & the dog is in the surf 6 days of 7, every week! :)
    .
    I'd ask the vet for a microscopic exam of a slide with a sample of the ear goop - just as a 1st step; then depending on what's visible, work from there to eliminate contributing factors.
    A blood-test for food / environmental allergens would also, IME, be a prudent early Dx step - if she's got food-sensitivities to specific proteins, that REALLY simplifies the diet issue - avoid [chicken, beef, lamb - whatever it is] in *all* forms, whether food / bones / toys / treats / supplements / every iteration, & she should soon improve.
    .
    Anything U can do to reduce the inflammation [diet, cleaning, anti-inflammatory / soothing ointments...] will also help.
    .
    many U-S folks who compete in dog-sports like DOCK DIVING which entail lots of in & out of water, use a 50 / 50 ear solution of apple-cider vinegar & H2O2 - it will not keep, mix only what's need for immediate use; it cannot be used in any ear with cracks, broken skin, etc, where the dog's dug at the ear with a claw or there's serious inflammation - it would STING furiously in any open wound!
    Examine the ear canal carefully for redness, sores, open follicles, scratches, etc, before deciding to try this blend. It is, however, very safe & simple - the vinegar acidifies the ear canal, which yeast hates, & the H2O2 / 1st-Aid strength Hydrogen Peroxide, is a drying agent. Only about a 1/2-tsp is used per ear, dribble it in & smush it around; if the ear is at all itchy, smushing it is very pleasurable to the dog, & will ensure momentary co-operation. Itchy dogs will usually groan & lean into the hand.
    However, do this outside if it's mild, or in the shower in cold weather - they WILL shake their heads violently as soon as U stop smushing, & let go of them... Gunk will fly out, U will want to spray it off the walls & curtain of the shower with hot water to get it down the drain.
    [Wiping the outer part of the ear canal // inside the ear pinna, Firmly, with a clean paper towel, before U release the dog's head, will help prevent gobs of goop being flung around, on U, the walls, floor, etc.]
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    It's a tough problem. :( Good luck.
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  19. labradrk

    labradrk PetForums VIP

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    So after around 8-9 weeks on a 70/30 food, no dairy/grain/commercial treats etc, the waxy ear is back as of yesterday....looks like switching the diet didn't work. Shame I just dropped a load on more expensive food literally yesterday lol. Thought that was too good to be true!
     
  20. leashedForLife

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    did the vet do a smear-slide of the ear goop? // If so, what was visible?
    Yeast? -- Mites? -- Any discolored wax [whiskey brown, coffee-colored, etc]?
    .
    If he's ping-ponging the causative microbe into his ears FROM BETWEEN HIS TOES, U need to treat between the toes as U do the ear canal - same treatment.
    I'd try the 50 / 50 cider-vinegar : 1st-aid H2O2, myself, if there are no visible mites in the ear-gunk.
    Can't really hurt, & might help. :)
    .
    Another possible help, which can be used at the same time: Black tea, in a bag. // Pour boiling water over a large black tea-bag, sufficiently large to make a quart to a gallon [1 large bag]. Just enuf water to barely cover it; let it stand & steep until it's room temp. SQUEEZE the bag gently but firmly - then back into the tea, to suck it up. U want the tea infusion to be as strong as possible. Squeeze & return until no more added color comes out of the bag.
    Have the dog lie down; Squeeze all the moisture out of the tea bag, into the bowl. Dip a cotton-ball or gauze into the bowl, have it just shy of dripping wet; dab the dog's paw, & get BETWEEN every pad, plus dab each pad. Do NOT Double-Dip.
    Use a clean cotton-ball or gauze square for each dipping; do all four feet. // Black tea is a very safe, simple fungicide, & also helps to toughen the dog's pads.
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    U can do one treatment MWF, the other on TThSt, & skip Sundays. :) The vinegar/H2O2 cannot be kept; the TEA can be covered in a glass bottle & tightly sealed - kept in the 'frig, it will keep for 7 to 10-days. // Then make up another.
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