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I haven't followed this thread from the beginning so might be off topic, or behind the times? I did watch the Matt Walsh documentary and for me one of the most interesting parts was the interview with Dr Miriam Grossman and her comments about Drs Alfred Kinsey and John Money. The Kinsey reports I'm reasonably well acquainted with but knew little or nothing about Dr John Money's work, so having done some research discovered this BBC documentary called "The boy who was turned into a girl".

Admittidly it was made in 2002 and scientific knowledge has moved on since then but nevertheless is IMO well worth watching.

 

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I haven't followed this thread from the beginning so might be off topic, or behind the times? I did watch the Matt Walsh documentary and for me one of the most interesting parts was the interview with Dr Miriam Grossman and her comments about Drs Alfred Kinsey and John Money. The Kinsey reports I'm reasonably well acquainted with but knew little or nothing about Dr John Money's work, so having done some research discovered this BBC documentary called "The boy who was turned into a girl".

Admittidly it was made in 2002 and scientific knowledge has moved on since then but nevertheless is IMO well worth watching.

Thanks, I was trying to remember where I had watched this documentary. Just a really tragic story for the family :(
 

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Swamprat
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But, hormone levels on the day are only part of the picture - this article looks at differences between biological males and females which are present even before puberty https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3
Super article, I hope everyone reads it.

I just got back from coaching over 30 kids in cross country running. Ages range from 12 to 17, co-ed.
We train together, girls run with boys. We do the same workout, same strength routine, same yoga routine. There are clear differences between the sexes! My girls are more flexible, they are less top-heavy, their center of gravity is different.
When they compete later this fall there are two categories, boys and girls. For the region and state meets we can only run our top 7 athletes in each category. It's completely objective, based on their time over the last 10 races. If I were to take only my top 14 overall, I would have 2 girls running, maybe just one because one of my younger boys had a massive growth spurt and has figured out where his legs are.
That's how opportunities for girls get eroded.

I know a lot of people on this thread don't care about sports and don't get why people get so worked up about it, but believe me, for those girls I'm coaching, it matters. What would be the point of them working as hard as they are all summer knowing that no matter what, no matter how hard they work, how many miles they put in, they will never be good enough to make it to state. And yeah, so what, a state title what's the big deal? Well in the US, it can mean access to university that you wouldn't otherwise have, it can mean access to coaching that you wouldn't otherwise have, and it just plain is affirming to know that there is a place for you in a sport you love.

It does matter how we define women because if we can't say what a woman is, how on earth can we protect them and their rights?
 

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Discussion Starter · #1,545 ·
Totally and utterly 100% agree with the above

Originally though, 77 pages ago, this thread wasn't about being born into the wrong body or anything to do with trans issues
It was about how women are let down across the world, despite women, allegedly, having equal rights and it being the 21st century.
The fact that fgm still happens, not just 'abroad' but here in the UK
The fact that, for women, the Taliban has taken their rights back to nothing since UN withdrawal
The facts that many states in the US, Texas seemingly the worse, are stripping the basics of rights for a woman to have power over her own body, and giving those rights to, amongst others, pedophile's, rapists, incest perpetrators, etc
It morphed, several times, as threads do,
until it seems to have grounded on the rocks of the dangers of men self identifying as women
Skewing crime rates
having ingress into biological female safe spaces
And
Berating anyone who says they are female, a woman, identifying as their birth assigned gender -however you want to put it

I wouldn't think anyone in their right mind would deny that there is a condition that covers body diamorphism, be it a physical or mental (or both) condition
I don't think any reasonable person has a problem with ANYONE dressing or identifying as whatever they wish (or they shouldn't have at least)
I view the present 'shock horror' scenarios a bit like the backlash when women first wore trousers or showed their ankles in public etc

Diatribe over
I agree this is not why I started this thread and if I'm honest I feel quite uncomfortable the direction it has taken. It certainly does not align with my beliefs. Many of the sensationalist stories posted on this thread are not representative of what is happening on the ground.

There are so many issues women face.

The march on the met happened only yesterday protesting against misogyny in the police.
Reproductive rights in America
The number of women who are murdered in the UK
Stalking statistics
Digital strip search of rape victims with only 1% of rape cases being prosecuted

With regards to sports I won't pretend I know enough about the science.

There are many aspects that make elite sports unfair. In particular wealth makes a huge difference when it comes to participation.

Do we need to protect women in sports ? Yes absolutely but why aren't we getting angry about;

Girls mental health and body image in elite sports
Girls being forced to wear tiny knickers in games whilst men can wear what they like
The sexual abuse scandals where girls have spoken out but been ignored or disbelieved.
 

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Swamprat
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There are many aspects that make elite sports unfair. In particular wealth makes a huge difference when it comes to participation.

Do we need to protect women in sports ? Yes absolutely but why aren't we getting angry about;

Girls mental health and body image in elite sports
Girls being forced to wear tiny knickers in games whilst men can wear what they like
The sexual abuse scandals where girls have spoken out but been ignored or disbelieved.
It's all related IME. Particularly here in the US where the only opportunity poor kids have to do any kind of competitive sport is through public schools. The CT runners cheated out of state titles were public school runners because private schools - who don't receive federal funding, can make their own rules.

I can be worried about "my" girls having the same opportunities as the boys and also worry about their mental health, body image, and safety. I worry about all of it.
I am so crazy protective of these girls and their opportunities to compete being fair is just one of the many ways I feel very "mama bear" about them.

BTW the gymnasts who won against Larry Nassar are now also suing the FBI for their handling of the case and I'm all here for that too.
"The women are collectively seeking more than $1 billion from the FBI in a lawsuit filed under the Federal Tort Claims Act, a 1946 law that makes the United States liable for injuries "caused by the negligent or wrongful act or omission of any employee of the Government while acting within the scope of his office or employment." They join 13 others who in April filed a similar lawsuit against the FBI, citing a July report released by the Justice Department's inspector general that found the bureau failed to properly investigate serious sex-abuse allegations against Nassar."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/2022/06/08/larry-nassar-victims-fbi-lawsuit/
 

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I agree this is not why I started this thread and if I'm honest I feel quite uncomfortable the direction it has taken. It certainly does not align with my beliefs. Many of the sensationalist stories posted on this thread are not representative of what is happening on the ground.

There are so many issues women face.

The march on the met happened only yesterday protesting against misogyny in the police.
Reproductive rights in America
The number of women who are murdered in the UK
Stalking statistics
Digital strip search of rape victims with only 1% of rape cases being prosecuted

With regards to sports I won't pretend I know enough about the science.

There are many aspects that make elite sports unfair. In particular wealth makes a huge difference when it comes to participation.

Do we need to protect women in sports ? Yes absolutely but why aren't we getting angry about;

Girls mental health and body image in elite sports
Girls being forced to wear tiny knickers in games whilst men can wear what they like
The sexual abuse scandals where girls have spoken out but been ignored or disbelieved.
To be fair, if memory serves we've covered all that and more at various points. It all matters.

For example, can't stand the Amber Heard/Johnny Depp case (not followed it beyond the basics), and yes it's a celebrity ding dong - but it matters because it affects how people judge women when it comes to problems in relationships. Was it technically a domestic abuse case - no. But that's what a lot of people will remember it as, and that it was ruled that Amber lost despite awful behavour on both sides. Will that mean fewer women come forward to report domestic abuse? Or that more people will look at women to do step forwards with suspicion, and put the character of the woman on trial? Probably.

Elite sports may not interest everyone, but what happens there will influence what is acceptable in other areas - the same as sexualisation via mandatory skimpy outfits. It is high profile, and if it is decided there that social gender is more important than biology when it comes to competing in events classified as female, even when male biology gives a natural advantage, then that stance will start to affect not only the grassroots kids that people like O2.0 train, but also invite abuse of that ruling. Some people already do lots of actually illegal things to succeed at the Elite level, it is a safe bet that some will regard faking being a trans-woman as a way to be succesful in womens sport as opposed to average at mens sport. Extreme? Yes. Unfair to biological women? Yes. Offensive to genuine trans? Yes - but someone is going to have low enough morals to try it, and probably have the balls to get away with it too.

Some of these are very tricky and uncomfortable to debate. In a meeting just last week, a group I am in had to decide whether to support a national proposal from a trans equality committee to more closely involve the trans community in something pretty innocuous - environmental issues, or something similar, I'm struggling to remember specifics as we reviewed several dozen proposals over a whole day! Either way, it was pretty routine and easy to agree with - barring one sub-clause.

Tucked away about two thirds of the way down was a paragraph calling for (and I'm paraphrasing here) the challenging and closing down of all 'gender critical' language, opinions and viewpoints. The way it was worded placed no limitations on what could be interpreted as 'gender critical', nor did it define the term or give examples. I could see many were uncomfortable with that part, especially as it was utterly unrelated to the rest of the proposal, but no-one was willing to challenge it and the recommendation from the (male) chair was strong acceptance.

So I bit the bullet and spoke up about the potential for the abuse of that clause without proper definition. Next thing I knew all the women - and some of the men - were echoing those concerns. I even had private messages (it was an online meeting) thanking me for actually speaking up as they wanted to but didn't feel they could. It was all very polite and respectful, and we ended up not supporting it and agreeing to request clarification instead.

Is that a big thing in the scheme of things? Not really. But it matters, because if you don't ask these questions when you can, then it might not be possible later. Also, if the motives of the proposers are decent, they won't mind clarifying anyway :)
 

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karma is a funny old thing
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Will that mean fewer women come forward to report domestic abuse?
Or
could it mean more men will come forward and get the help THEY need as victims of domestic abuse
After all if
"the great Johnny Depp"
Is going to stand up and say
"YES,
I am a victim of domestic abuse,"
and be believed ( yes we all know it was supposed to be about defamation,but it still turned into a mud slinging, $h1t show anyway)
Then, maybe we can too

Did you know,
as an example of beliefs re abusers v abusee's
There is not a single specifically named safe house for male victims of rape or partner/spousal violence in the UK
And
According to ManKind only 20 'safe spaces' countrywide specifically allocated to male victims of DV

Yes I agree, before anyone shouts, female victims, probably, outnumber male victims of intimate violence by 100 to 1, if not, possibly more
But
With 67 million+ people in this country alone, those 1's add up
I know this is a thread about women's rights triggers and I don't want to take anything away from that
But
Surely, whilst upholding the rights of women, worldwide,
we have to recognise, that, women, can be hidden perpetrators of evil, too

Edit because my phone keeps changing male to make
 

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Discussion Starter · #1,549 ·
To be fair, if memory serves we've covered all that and more at various points. It all matters.

For example, can't stand the Amber Heard/Johnny Depp case (not followed it beyond the basics), and yes it's a celebrity ding dong - but it matters because it affects how people judge women when it comes to problems in relationships. Was it technically a domestic abuse case - no. But that's what a lot of people will remember it as, and that it was ruled that Amber lost despite awful behavour on both sides. Will that mean fewer women come forward to report domestic abuse? Or that more people will look at women to do step forwards with suspicion, and put the character of the woman on trial? Probably.

Elite sports may not interest everyone, but what happens there will influence what is acceptable in other areas - the same as sexualisation via mandatory skimpy outfits. It is high profile, and if it is decided there that social gender is more important than biology when it comes to competing in events classified as female, even when male biology gives a natural advantage, then that stance will start to affect not only the grassroots kids that people like O2.0 train, but also invite abuse of that ruling. Some people already do lots of actually illegal things to succeed at the Elite level, it is a safe bet that some will regard faking being a trans-woman as a way to be succesful in womens sport as opposed to average at mens sport. Extreme? Yes. Unfair to biological women? Yes. Offensive to genuine trans? Yes - but someone is going to have low enough morals to try it, and probably have the balls to get away with it too.

Some of these are very tricky and uncomfortable to debate. In a meeting just last week, a group I am in had to decide whether to support a national proposal from a trans equality committee to more closely involve the trans community in something pretty innocuous - environmental issues, or something similar, I'm struggling to remember specifics as we reviewed several dozen proposals over a whole day! Either way, it was pretty routine and easy to agree with - barring one sub-clause.

Tucked away about two thirds of the way down was a paragraph calling for (and I'm paraphrasing here) the challenging and closing down of all 'gender critical' language, opinions and viewpoints. The way it was worded placed no limitations on what could be interpreted as 'gender critical', nor did it define the term or give examples. I could see many were uncomfortable with that part, especially as it was utterly unrelated to the rest of the proposal, but no-one was willing to challenge it and the recommendation from the (male) chair was strong acceptance.

So I bit the bullet and spoke up about the potential for the abuse of that clause without proper definition. Next thing I knew all the women - and some of the men - were echoing those concerns. I even had private messages (it was an online meeting) thanking me for actually speaking up as they wanted to but didn't feel they could. It was all very polite and respectful, and we ended up not supporting it and agreeing to request clarification instead.

Is that a big thing in the scheme of things? Not really. But it matters, because if you don't ask these questions when you can, then it might not be possible later. Also, if the motives of the proposers are decent, they won't mind clarifying anyway :)
Amber Heard wasn't discussed on this thread she had her own. If you look back we have had pages and pages debating trans women in sports when let's face the numbers we are probably taking about are tiny. It is worthy of a discussion but do we really believe men are pretending to be trans to access women sport? If they are it's not only damaging to women but to trans people so we are on the same side !

Once again no one is shouting about financial fairness in sport.

There are so many other issues that face women. We also need to recognise the difficulties trans people face. I think about 41% have been victims of a hate crime. The articles and videos posted are sensationalist and not really representative of the community as @mrs phas said let's be kind.

I don't think we are getting much of a debate because some voices are louder then others. We are covering the same material over and over again. Do you think a trans person visiting this forum for pet advice would feel comfortable after reading this thread? I will bow out now.
 

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Amber Heard wasn't discussed on this thread she had her own. If you look back we have had pages and pages debating trans women in sports when let's face the numbers we are probably taking about are tiny. It is worthy of a discussion but do we really believe men are pretending to be trans to access women sport? If they are it's not only damaging to women but to trans people so we are on the same side !

Once again no one is shouting about financial fairness in sport.

There are so many other issues that face women. We also need to recognise the difficulties trans people face. I think about 41% have been victims of a hate crime. The articles and videos posted are sensationalist and not really representative of the community as @mrs phas said let's be kind.

I don't think we are getting much of a debate because some voices are louder then others. We are covering the same material over and over again. Do you think a trans person visiting this forum for pet advice would feel comfortable after reading this thread? I will bow out now.
But IMO it is very important. I am not an athlete or have any interest in sports tbh but it is still an issue that I feel strongly about. As @O2.0 states this is about women/girls being recognised, achieving college places (which will then affect their futures) as a sense of personal achievement, encouraging other women/girls in to sports (which is great as I understand that in some school, etc the numbers of women/girls in sport are low). It is also a subject that is very of the moment & clearly demonstrates an unfairness toward women who are then silenced & not allowed to speak up as they are afraid ... regardless what subject this relates to if women are in this position I find it incredible sad & worrying.

I think there has been many different voices on here representing different opinion & I hope everyone contributes if they feel they want to. I think a while back we had this where I said I welcomed opposing opinions. It is a shame one of the members doesn't appear to be on the forum anymore.

I also don't think anyone has been abusive, if that is the case or anyone feels this then maybe they should report to the mods or tell the member. I think sometimes people get passionate & maybe don't realise that they may have over stepped the line. or maybe some people feel victimised because others don't agree with them .. forums are just like that & I think this thread is a actually a good representation of people discussing issues without personally attacking others.

I think the subjects posted about are very representative, they affect women, women are talking about them (where they are allowed to) & women are demonstrating about them (when they are allowed to). This is surely a space where we can discuss a variety of subjects & as long as we are respectful then why should we worry what others may think? No one has been abusive

I hope everyone feels they can post here regardless of the subject that is affecting women, The subject went back to the trans issue again due to the release of the Matt Walsh film which again IMO was an important subject to discuss. It was all over social media & mentioned in several of the feminist pages on FB so a very relevant topic.

I would rather people be respectful than 'kind' ... sorry that's just my opinion as I find that phrase is often used to shut down differences of opinion especially to women :)
 

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Amber Heard wasn't discussed on this thread she had her own. If you look back we have had pages and pages debating trans women in sports when let's face the numbers we are probably taking about are tiny. It is worthy of a discussion but do we really believe men are pretending to be trans to access women sport? If they are it's not only damaging to women but to trans people so we are on the same side !

Once again no one is shouting about financial fairness in sport.

There are so many other issues that face women. We also need to recognise the difficulties trans people face. I think about 41% have been victims of a hate crime. The articles and videos posted are sensationalist and not really representative of the community as @mrs phas said let's be kind.

I don't think we are getting much of a debate because some voices are louder then others. We are covering the same material over and over again. Do you think a trans person visiting this forum for pet advice would feel comfortable after reading this thread? I will bow out now.
Thank you for this. As I've said before my cousin is transgender and just wants to leave her life like anyone else. I'm glad the mocking of self-identifying was stopped when it did and really wish we'd move on from it. One poster has already left over this and has deleted loads of their posts.
 

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Thank you for this. As I've said before my cousin is transgender and just wants to leave her life like anyone else. I'm glad the mocking of self-identifying was stopped when it did and really wish we'd move on from it. One poster has already left over this and has deleted loads of their posts.
And am sure most are like your cousin but unfortunately there is a loud & aggressive TRA element that IMO are creating divisions rather than encouraging inclusivity.

I know we are not allowed to discuss members (so mods please delete this part of my comment if necessary)& it is a shame she has left the forum but ultimately it was her choice over a decision made. I have had threads deleted, posts edited, etc previously which I thought unfair but I am still here. (I think she left over a post that was edited rather than content posted on here ... but I might be wrong so apologies if I am :) )

I hope people feel free to post on any subject that affects women regardless of their POV.
 

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Swamprat
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Once again no one is shouting about financial fairness in sport.
I was and was shouted back down. I don't know if it was this thread or another but I brought up the equal pay for women's soccer (football) issue that was going on here in the states and was told that the women's team shouldn't be paid as much because they don't sell as many tickets.

Honestly, we're shouted down on so many women's issues - even the JD/AH trial whenever someone brought up the misogyny aspect of the JD fans it turned right back into "women can be abusers too!" which of course they can and this case proved that but um... misogyny is still not okay is it not?

Do you think a trans person visiting this forum for pet advice would feel comfortable after reading this thread?
I think a lot of things there.
I think most trans people agree with a lot of what is said on this thread. I don't think TRA = everyday trans people just trying to live their lives. And I don't think the majority of trans people agree with a lot of the TRA narrative either. For example all this self-ID and gender fluid stuff is at it's core dismissive of the trans experience of wanting to change one's gender. If there is no gender or anyone can be any gender, then what's the point of medical transition?
It also seems that a lot of trans people disagree with puberty blockers and transitioning very young. Another issue we've covered.

And then of course there's people who read stuff and simply disregard it, I mean, look at all the threads about wanting to breed my doodle to a pug, it would take 5 seconds to encounter a thread about poor breeding practices and/or the health issues with pugs yet people come on here all the time and jump right in.

And finally, if anyone spends the days it would require to slog through this thread start to finish, they're braver than me!

But we have to be able to at least talk about things. And I know that every time I bring up women in sports it might sound anti-trans but that's just the 'woke' bias coming through. My posts are not anti-anything. They're PRO-women and girls, who still need a lot of protection even as far as we've come in the western world.
When I say protect women's sports that's pro women.
When I say protect the word woman in healthcare settings (we are not bleeders or birthing people) that's pro women.
When I ask to define what a woman is, it's so that we can have real conversations about who we're protecting, including trans women because if we can't say what is a woman then we certainly can't say what a trans woman is, and we need to be able to do that.
 

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I was and was shouted back down. I don't know if it was this thread or another but I brought up the equal pay for women's soccer (football) issue that was going on here in the states and was told that the women's team shouldn't be paid as much because they don't sell as many tickets
You can 'thank' the UK FA for that.

During WW1, womens football became a phenomenon in the UK whilst the men were off fighting, attracting massive crowds and raising huge amounts of money for the war effort.

Post WW1, the womens game remained vastly more popular, attracting far higher numbers of spectators than the men and breaking gate attendance records at the grounds they played at. The matches weren't frequent, and never interfered with the mens schedule, but they were always much more popular than the mens matches. The Dick, Kerr's Ladies and St Helens Ladies match brought 53,000 fans through the Goodison Park turnstiles on Boxing Day 1920, believed at the time to be the largest gate at any football match in England since records began.

The FA of the day thought that was too embarrassing for the men's game, so in 1921 they passed a resolution declaring the sport "quite unsuitable for females" and banning womens matches from all FA team grounds. And so the womens game was sidelined - indeed, mainly forgotten about - for decades, and only allowed strict amateur status after the womens FA was finally formed in 1969. They became part of the main FA in 1993 - and even today, the FA only acknowledges that womens football existed from that date, holding a "20 years of womens football" event in 2013.

Isn't history fun! :)
 

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Male and female are biological facts but the concept of women/men changes with time and culture. You need a male and female to produce a child. However, when I work with children I don’t then assume the parents they live with are a man and woman. It is culturally unacceptable here to walk down the high street as a woman showing your breasts. Where I worked in Zambia showing your knees was offensive. Therefore there is no general agreement on what part of the body is deemed sexual.

When it comes to sport then someone pretending to be transgender to gain advantage should be treated in the same way as those that take drugs. I think it’s a case of fraud rather than a transgender issue.
 

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When it comes to sport then someone pretending to be transgender to gain advantage should be treated in the same way as those that take drugs. I think it's a case of fraud rather than a transgender issue.
Agreed, but... how do you decide who is genuine and who is a fraud?

With drugs, it's (relatviely) easy to define, even if it always going to be a cat and mouse game. You have banned substances and testing regimes on one side, and cheats trying to circumvent those rules on the other.

But how do you legislate for something that can't be tested for or measured - that we are told isn't even physical? That's a genuine question, as I have no idea. Either way, it will be biological women and genuine trans who lose, as someone that determined to cheat won't worry about playing the discrimination card often and loudly.
 

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Agreed, but... how do you decide who is genuine and who is a fraud?

With drugs, it's (relatviely) easy to define, even if it always going to be a cat and mouse game. You have banned substances and testing regimes on one side, and cheats trying to circumvent those rules on the other.

But how do you legislate for something that can't be tested for or measured - that we are told isn't even physical? That's a genuine question, as I have no idea. Either way, it will be biological women and genuine trans who lose, as someone that determined to cheat won't worry about playing the discrimination card often and loudly.
I'd assume that someone who is genuinely transgender would live a transitioned life. If someone was a fraud then it would only be whilst racing etc. I don't think it's really an issue here though as it wouldn't help you access university etc.
 

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Thank you for this. As I've said before my cousin is transgender and just wants to leave her life like anyone else. I'm glad the mocking of self-identifying was stopped when it did and really wish we'd move on from it. One poster has already left over this and has deleted loads of their posts.
I have now deleted the post in question (although I can't do anything about posts where people have quoted it) and again I am sorry that it offended you - it was never meant to offend anyone, but I have a pretty warped sense of humour (usually I'm the subject of my own jokes) which isn't really appropriate for a public forum where people don't know me and cannot tell what my intentions are. I will attempt to explain myself, and possibly redeem myself from being the a-hole I have evidently come across as, before I bow out of this thread.

I absolutely support a person's right to live an authentic life and be the person that they are. As someone who had to battle with her own sexuality for many years and went through a huge amount of emotional trauma herself, including rejection from my own family, I know how it feels to be a social outcast. Of course we should be kind to people, that should go without saying. Of course people should be treated with respect. If you are trans then I will use your preferred pronoun and preferred name, and I will not treat you any differently to anyone else. The issue for me with human rights is when the advancement of rights of one group of people steps on the rights of another group of people (example being trans women competing against cis women in sport). When gay marriage was being debated I was against religious organisations being forced to conduct same sex marriages for the exact same reason - why should the rights of gay people be more important than the rights of religious freedom?

I have a trans friend. She came out to me in her early 20s after I had known her as a man for many years. I was very supportive, helped her dress, showed her how to apply makeup and of course I loved her the exact same as I had for years. But she and I used to take the mick out of each other - I the lesbian and she the trans woman. I have lots of gay and lesbian friends and again we take the mick out of each other, but there is no malice whatsoever.

The reason I thought of the picture of my cat in a carrycot was because in the Matt Walsh documentary he asked someone to define what a cat was. It made me think of Herbie, who is apparently a cat but no-one seems to have told him this and he behaves like a range of different species, including a human baby. My post was meant to just lighten the mood a little, but I accept that it was inappropriate.

And on that note, and to avoid risk of causing further offence, I shall now bow out of this thread.
 

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And another voice silenced because we're not allowed to say certain things, discuss certain things :(

I like Ricky Gervais' take. He jokes about trans people along with everyone else because he wants to be inclusive - so he includes the trans community in his jokes too.

Or better yet, Aayan Hirsi Ali's take that if you are afraid of offending that means you don't see the other person as an equal, you don't think them capable of handling a difference of opinion. It's condescending.
 
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