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Vassal to Lilly and Ludo
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Following on from the Do we really care thread - what is your definition of a Back Yard Breeder?

It seems to me such a vague term and so many differing opinions.

Is it:
Someone who doesn't KC reg?
Someone who breeds more than 1 litter every 1or2 years?
Someone with more than 1 breeding bitch?
Someone who breeds cross breeds?

What makes someone a Hobby breeder as oppossed to a BYB? Or are they the same thing?

To me a BYB is breeding without care for profit -like a Puppy Farmer on a smaller scale but in their own home rather than in cages.

A hobby breeder is someone who loves their dogs but also loves breeding - raises their puppies with care and attention in their own home, only breeding from healthy happy dogs of good tempermant knowing they can find what they believe to be good homes.
Only has a couple of breeding bitches, only takes a litter every other year, only takes a maximum of 3 litters from each bitch.
Has a clean and loving home for the pups to be raised in and has done everything they can to socialise the pups.
Takes the time to put together a puppy pack, care sheet and arrange free insurance.
 

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Very similar to what your definition is, except the 'in the home' bit, the OH raises pups outside after 5 weeks of age, so do a lot of other folk who breed an occasional litter of working dogs.
 

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My personal take on it is anyone who is doing it purely for profit with no real care for the animal, so that would include people breeding from animals who aren't health tested, breed before having homes lined up, cross breeds (one accidental litter can sort of be understood). Someone who gets rid of the bitch when they can no longer have pups. Dumps unsold pups on rescue.

I dont like the term hobby breeder as to me, no-one should breed purely for money, so what you class as a hobby breeder I would probably class as a proper breeder.

But things are often very black and white with me when animals are concerned. Maybe a few years down the line i will feel differently!
 

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Vassal to Lilly and Ludo
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
My personal take on it is anyone who is doing it purely for profit with no real care for the animal, so that would include people breeding from animals who aren't health tested, breed before having homes lined up, cross breeds (one accidental litter can sort of be understood). Someone who gets rid of the bitch when they can no longer have pups. Dumps unsold pups on rescue.

I dont like the term hobby breeder as to me, no-one should breed purely for money, so what you class as a hobby breeder I would probably class as a proper breeder.

But things are often very black and white with me when animals are concerned. Maybe a few years down the line i will feel differently!
Thank you for your reply - I never mentioned health tests or pedigrees so already we differ in our opinions :)
A friend of mine is about to take on a retired assured KC breeders bitch - a breeder who only breeds when she wants a pup, shows, does all health tests, only takes a max of 3 litters from a bitch sources the best Stud she can but when one of her girls has finished breeding she retires them to pet homes - no charge
By your defination does this make her a BYB?

I'm not 'having a go' like you say it's not black and white ;)
 

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Thank you for your reply - I never mentioned health tests or pedigrees so already we differ in our opinions :)
A friend of mine is about to take on a retired assured KC breeders bitch - a breeder who only breeds when she wants a pup, shows, does all health tests, only takes a max of 3 litters from a bitch sources the best Stud she can but when one of her girls has finished breeding she retires them to pet homes - no charge
By your defination does this make her a BYB?

I'm not 'having a go' like you say it's not black and white ;)
For me - the breeder that your friend is getting the bitch from has slipped into BYB. However much they do right, if they only want a bitch for as long as she is profitable then they are a BYB in my opinion.
 

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Following on from the Do we really care thread - what is your definition of a Back Yard Breeder?

It seems to me such a vague term and so many differing opinions.

Is it:
Someone who doesn't KC reg?
Someone who breeds more than 1 litter every 1or2 years?
Someone with more than 1 breeding bitch?
Someone who breeds cross breeds?

What makes someone a Hobby breeder as oppossed to a BYB? Or are they the same thing?

To me a BYB is breeding without care for profit -like a Puppy Farmer on a smaller scale but in their own home rather than in cages.

A hobby breeder is someone who loves their dogs but also loves breeding - raises their puppies with care and attention in their own home, only breeding from healthy happy dogs of good tempermant knowing they can find what they believe to be good homes.
Only has a couple of breeding bitches, only takes a litter every other year, only takes a maximum of 3 litters from each bitch.
Has a clean and loving home for the pups to be raised in and has done everything they can to socialise the pups.
Takes the time to put together a puppy pack, care sheet and arrange free insurance.
I agree with this.

My definition of a BYB is exactly the same. Someone who breeds without care for the puppies, who are just in it for a profit. So doesn't get any free insurance sorted out for the new owners, who dumps them off when they cannot sell any for one reason or another and who just allows them to go to anyone as long as they are paying.
 
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Mine is anyone who doesn`t give a damn about the dogs or their dogs and just wants a money making machine. If the puppy I`m interested in is like this I certainly won`t be buying it.
 

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Vassal to Lilly and Ludo
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I agree with this.

My definition of a BYB is exactly the same. Someone who breeds without care for thee puppies, who are just in it for a profit.
I supose the dificulty of trying to define a BYB is what do we consider the right amount of 'Care'
 

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Mine is anyone who doesn`t give a damn about the dogs or their dogs and just wants a money making machine. If the puppy I`m interested in is like this I certainly won`t be buying it.
Forgive me but you have already been told that this is clearly what type of 'breeder' this puppy is coming from.

Each bitch has had at least two litters of crosses chi and westie obviously to the same pom.
 

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Someone who breed's pedigrees 'without papers'
Someone who does not provide a lifetime of support
Someone who has to rely on advertising on freebie sites
Someone who cannot be bothered to write a detailed advert / displays different prices in different adverts.
Someone who breeds multiple times a year of differing breeds
Someone who doesn't vet homes / families and doesn't give a months insurance
Someone who says they are 'health checked' but the parents not health tested
Someone who proudly boasts they have had their 1st jab (BUT what good is this if your vet doesn't use the same vaccination company?)


Someone who is relying on an 'impulse' buy market - Afterall who can walk away from a beautiful fluffy puppy?
 

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As you say, it's not black and white

Example... What category would you put this breeder in?

KC Assured breeder status, buys bitches from certain selling sites for breeding purposes, breeds every year from the bitches, uses dogs at 7 months old at stud prolifically, breeds knowing there is health problems in their lines, sells at a higher price as they are 'coloured' yet supposedly keeps them indoors as pets and by all accounts they are treated well and loved!

They call themselves 'hobby breeders' ..........not in my book
 

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Following on from the Do we really care thread - what is your definition of a Back Yard Breeder?

It seems to me such a vague term and so many differing opinions.

Is it:
Someone who doesn't KC reg?
Someone who breeds more than 1 litter every 1or2 years?
Someone with more than 1 breeding bitch?
Someone who breeds cross breeds?

What makes someone a Hobby breeder as oppossed to a BYB? Or are they the same thing?

To me a BYB is breeding without care for profit -like a Puppy Farmer on a smaller scale but in their own home rather than in cages.

A hobby breeder is someone who loves their dogs but also loves breeding - raises their puppies with care and attention in their own home, only breeding from healthy happy dogs of good tempermant knowing they can find what they believe to be good homes.
Only has a couple of breeding bitches, only takes a litter every other year, only takes a maximum of 3 litters from each bitch.
Has a clean and loving home for the pups to be raised in and has done everything they can to socialise the pups.
Takes the time to put together a puppy pack, care sheet and arrange free insurance.
Going by your definition Gypsy's breeder (a farmer who bred from his working dogs) isnt the byb I thought he was ... which actually makes me feel better , as he did everything you stated apart from the free insurance part ... though the bitch and pups were transferred to a warm stable barn after a few weeks , but the bitch and puppies all looked happy to be out there
 

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Vassal to Lilly and Ludo
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
what about farmers breeding their dogs now and then?
What do you think?

My uncle ocasionally bred his working dogs - outside (shock horror) - is good warm clean conditions, with lots ands lots of human interaction, who wants a working dog that isn't people friendly?
He obviously only wanted one or 2 pups himself so the rest of the pups would go to other farmers and some would end up going to pet homes - however he was very careful to make sure the pups going for pets were going to home that were expecting high energy dogs with a strong working drive and new what to expect (normally due to the location of my uncles farm they went to families with farming backgrounds)
Does that make him a BYB?
Personally I'd never buy a dog from such a place - not that I don't agree with it - but because I'd never cope with such a dog - and it's important to me that a dog is used to being in a home.
 

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For me a BYBer is someone who doesnt do ALL of the following:

-Health test their dogs to the fullest extent
-Breed to standard
-Take into account the pedigree of the dog and match suitable dogs together, rather than just mating to the dog which is closest
-Succeed at their chosen venue (show/working/agility ect)
-Make every dog they breed their responsibility for the dogs life, taking dogs back when necessary
-Support their puppy buyer throughout the dogs life if they need advice
-Breeds only to further their lines or because they want a puppy themselves, only max a few litters a year
-All dogs kept as pets first

And there are a bunch others, but lack of any of the above would be a serious deal breaker for me. My definition might be stricter than others, but that is my definition.
 

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Vassal to Lilly and Ludo
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
As you say, it's not black and white

Example... What category would you put this breeder in?

KC Assured breeder status, buys bitches from certain selling sites for breeding purposes, breeds every year from the bitches, uses dogs at 7 months old at stud prolifically, breeds knowing there is health problems in their lines, sells at a higher price as they are 'coloured' yet supposedly keeps them indoors as pets and by all accounts they are treated well and loved!

They call themselves 'hobby breeders' ..........not in my book
To me they are BYB - but how would I know this if I went to buy to pup from them?
On paper they appear decent - KC assured.
 

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Vassal to Lilly and Ludo
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Going by your definition Gypsy's breeder (a farmer who bred from his working dogs) isnt the byb I thought he was ... which actually makes me feel better , as he did everything you stated apart from the free insurance part ... though the bitch and pups were transferred to a warm stable barn after a few weeks , but the bitch and puppies all looked happy to be out there
To me Gypsy is working bred - if the farmer bred to keep a puppy or 2 to train up then personally I don't see any issues - but that is my opinion and this varies so much from person to person

For me a BYBer is someone who doesnt do ALL of the following:

-Health test their dogs to the fullest extent
-Breed to standard
-Take into account the pedigree of the dog and match suitable dogs together, rather than just mating to the dog which is closest
-Succeed at their chosen venue (show/working/agility ect)
-Make every dog they breed their responsibility for the dogs life, taking dogs back when necessary
-Support their puppy buyer throughout the dogs life if they need advice
-Breeds only to further their lines or because they want a puppy themselves, only max a few litters a year
-All dogs kept as pets first

And there are a bunch others, but lack of any of the above would be a serious deal breaker for me. My definition might be stricter than others, but that is my definition.
All valid points - but a few litters a year would put me off, where as I wouldn't be bothered about show/working/agility as I want a lap dog ;)

Exactly!!! To me, the whole KC Assured scheme is fundamentally flawed. It could have been a good thing!
Totally agree - and a lot of arguements seem to come from different peoples definitaions of BYB.
 
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