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What's driving the increasing popularity of Designer Breeds?

Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by Sandor Fagyal, Jul 3, 2018.


  1. mrs phas

    mrs phas my home, my sofa, my rules

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    C'mon @Blitz , ALL breeds of dogs are originally designer dogs, bred down or up from the original breakaway template of wolves and wolf like animals
    If they weren't then we wouldn't have the vast differences, just one medium sized rough( or broken if you like) brownish black dog, end of
    Yes, now, certain "designer" breeds are now recognised as "pure" breeds, but that's only because some officious club donkeys years ago decided that "they" breed true (pure) when bred together, ergo "they" are true (or pure) breeds
    I don't doubt that pretty soon cava, cocker, et all will follow the labra (in some states)and also be recognised as such
    So let's, for the moment ALL stop calling them "designer"breeds, which gives them some status, in the eyes of idiots that pay £1000+ (usually much more than one of the, normally 2, " pure" breeds involved) and call them what they really are, which is crossbreeds, or, in USA, and other countries, mutts
    Once people start to realise that they've been caught by a con, the better IMHO, its the only way the exploitation will stop
     
  2. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife PetForums VIP

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    .

    As my then-Prof said, “If U don’t know what U’re mating, U can never know what U’re breeding” -
    by which, of course, he meant U cannot know what U are passing on to POSTERITY, I-e, the breed U supposedly love so much. :(

    I very heartily agree, @Biffo - if U want to breed ethically & knowledgably, U *must* test.

    I would moreover add that along with testing for generic dog issues, & BREED SPECIFIC issues, ethical breeders of all sizes & breeds or mixes, should wait until both the tested sire & the tested dam are at least 2-YO before they are 1st mated.
    Delaying any breeding until both dog & bitch are 24-MO does 2 things:
    - allows heritable problems that cannot be tested for, to become symptomatic
    - ADDS an average of two years, to the lifespan of their pups

    85% of the heritable issues that will affect an individual dog, show symptoms by 2-YO; that still leaves 15% which may lurk, but 85% is a helluva good start.
    So far as I know, there hasn’t been a published article explaining the gain in lifespan, but I’ll take it gladly unexplained - another two years added to a dog’s brief life is a wonderful gift. :)

    - terry

    .
     
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  3. Rafa

    Rafa PetForums VIP

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    What is 'kc interbreeding'?
     
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  4. Goblin

    Goblin PetForums VIP

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    So easily managed with only 14% for German Shepherds and 6% of conditions for boxers being testable. That's if all tests were carried out but many are not. Stopping carriers from breeding, reducing the gene pool further and potentially raising new isssues. Health testing is a useful,essential tool, not the solution as you start playing that "whack a mole" scenario previously mentioned.
     
  5. SpicyBulldog

    SpicyBulldog PetForums Senior

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    In this country (USA) some certs can be done until 2 years old anyway, so seems by default breederd wouldn't be breeding until at least 2. Then there is also clearly good breeders wanting their dogs to be mature before breeding (even if they can get certs). So I don't think this is an issue for reputable breeders. BYBs are going to breed as young as they like and not health test, they could care less sadly.

    Since a lot of diseases have a late age of onset waiting until 2 years isn't going to improve things. Researching lines is your best bet. I wouldn't recommend breeding a young dog by any means, but at 2 years old many dogs are "healthy" then at 5 years plus problems become apparent but they've already been bred passing on genes for those diseases. I really don't see how anyone can make such claims. Not helpful to breeder who's trying to learn proper breeding.

    Data needs to be presented prove it adds 2 years. Then taken into account age of parents, obviously 9-12 months is going to be a big difference from 24 months or older. Yet the difference between 23 months, 24 months/2 years and 25 months is insignificant. Also seems like would take a whole lot of repeat breedings or comparatives similar breedings to gather this data and cause of death needs to be known for all dogs produced. I accept things even if science can't explain it, there are a lot of things we can see are true even if science can't yet explain it. Though people need to use legitimate data as well.
     
  6. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife PetForums VIP

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    QUOTE, SpicyBulldog:

    ... Since a lot of diseases have a late age of onset, waiting until (the dog is ) 2-years old, isn’t going to improve things. ... I really don’t see how anyone can make such claims. Not helpful to breeder who's trying to learn proper breeding.

    Data needs to be presented (to) prove (that delaying breeding until sire & dam are 2-YO) adds 2 years (to their pups’ lifespans).
    ...

    _____________________________________
    .

    @SpicyBulldog ,
    I didn’t casually invent those statistics.

    Both of those stats -
    * 85% of heritable problems will be symptomatic by 24-mos
    * breeding at a minimum age of 24-MO & up, adds 2-yrs on average to their pups’ lifespans...

    came from Padgett’s book, Control of Canine Genetic Diseases
    The book is available on Amazon, & currently 37 used copies are listed -
    Dr Padgett has an extensive bibliography, & footnotes. :)

    - terry

    .
     
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  7. SpicyBulldog

    SpicyBulldog PetForums Senior

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    Have both hardcover and kindle version, don't need a 3rd copy. Please direct me to where this information is located. That way I can read context. The statement can hardly be applied in real world in many cases. If someone wishes to breed properly it is best they find a mentor within their breed, rather than rely on a blanket statement that may not apply to their breed. As breeds are known to have their own set of diseases, some might have more early on set diseases, others have mostly late onset (so this doesn't help in that case as I stated) and still others have a mix of both.

    As I said researching lines is important....and Padgett said that as well... Section "For The Breeder"
    Once you have determined what traits are carried in your dog’s family, you can begin to apply the data. Experienced breeders should know what traits occur in their lines. In my opinion, if they don’t know the traits that occur in their lines, I would hesitate to think that the word “breeder” applies to them. Instead, I would suggest that you think of them as “people who mate dogs.”

    This is just one such quote where he speaks of the importance of knowing family / lines. Of course you need to know your breed as well in the first place, what diseases are seen overall and typical age of onset, then break down to what's typically found in which line or specific dogs progeny.
     
  8. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife PetForums VIP

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    @spicy,
    Sorry, but no - I won’t re-read an approx 350 page hardcover to find which page it’s on. Regretfully, but no.

    the Kindle version OTOH, should be searchable by keywords. Aren’t they?
    - t

    .
     
  9. SpicyBulldog

    SpicyBulldog PetForums Senior

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    Yes kindle has search function, and the search yields nothing for 85%, eighty five, eighty-five. 85 does appear several times but not with the statement that you said. Tried other words that you used and they do appear, but again not with the statement you are saying.

    It could never be applied to every breed. Any breed that is prone to primarily late on set diseases you won't see the issues until past adulthood.

    The book has great info, but was also published 20 years ago. Since then more diseases have been found, BUT a lot more testing is also available. Due to current technology I could have a 14 month old female that's fully health tested come into season and be bred, I wouldn't do it, but point is with testing available it would negate needing to until 2 years old for genetic health concerns in some breeds.
     
    #169 SpicyBulldog, Aug 13, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
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  10. Biffo

    Biffo PetForums Senior

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    I said the testing ensured that carriers would be bred to clear. Not removed from breeding stock, but bred responsibly to reduce known health conditions within the breed, I didn't mean to imply it was all that mattered.

    Health testing is a useful too, and should be used but it is not the be all and end all. Too many people focus on health testing and do no temperament testing, or look at pedigrees and compatibility, and unknowing people new to the breed think they are buying from a super responsible, reputable breeder. A dog can pass every health test and still be a poor example of the breed with an unstable temperament.
     
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  11. Goblin

    Goblin PetForums VIP

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    I assume you meant tool, not too ;) The problem is that is not how it is currently being marketed. Health testing is being used as if it solves everything. Just as cross breeds are "healthier" but it's not the true story, the idea of "health tests" solve the health issues is also not the true story. As responsible dog lovers and owners we need to ensure marketing is not only factual but tells the whole story.
     
  12. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife PetForums VIP

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    QUOTE, SpicyBulldog:

    Have both hardcover and kindle version, don't need a 3rd copy. Please direct me to where this information is located. That way I can read context.
    ...
    _______________________


    QUOTE, SpicyBulldog:

    Yes kindle has search function, and the search yields nothing for 85%, eighty five, eighty-five.
    85 does appear several times, but not with the statement that you said. Tried other words that you used and they do appear, but again not with the statement you are saying.
    ...

    The book has great info, but was also published 20 years ago.
    Since then more diseases have been found, BUT a lot more testing is also available.

    Due to current technology I could have a 14 month old female that's fully health tested come into season and be bred; I wouldn't do it, but point is, with testing available, it would negate needing to (wait) until 2 years old for genetic health concerns in some breeds.
    ___________________________
    .

    Well, I don’t have the e-book, I have the hardcover, which is searchable to an extent, but it’s also in storage, as I share an apt with my current full-time client, & no, I won’t dig into the stacks & go thru some 8 or 10 boxes of books, all taped shut, from my recent move. :D
    I have yet to be paid, & don’t really have the $$ to spare, to buy a Kindle edition that I don’t feel the need for, to do a search in order to cite the page # & paragraph for U. // If I go to the public library & borrow a copy in my sparse free time, what precisely will U give me if I not only find both statements, but provide the page # & quote the paragraph? —. A sincere apology, for doubting me? ... not good enuf, i’m afraid. :Hilarious
    I’d like something a bit more substantial in exchange for my time & effort... it’s a 30 minute trip to the library, without considering the search time.

    Could U please name 2 or more brand-new k9 diseases found in the past 25 years that are not restricted to a single breed? - I honestly can’t think of even one which meets all 3 criteria:
    - recently discovered,
    - heritable rather than contagious or vector borne,
    - affecting multiple breeds.

    If we discuss tests, yes - many more heritable conditions can be screened for than heretofore; however, there are still multiple heritable issues which cannot be screened for, save by opening the medical Hx of the individual prospective sire & dam, & that of their immediate relatives... such as bloat / GDV.
    No breeder that I know of opens their individual stud’s or dam’s entire vet record to the owners of a potential mate.

    Conversely, multiple breeders to my knowledge have deliberately bred dogs that they knew were affected or were proven carriers of devastating heritable problems; to name just a few, consigning bad results on those OFA hip rads to the trash can, using a Cav who threw syringomyelia-affected pups as a matador sire, & breeding gundog-champion Labs who carried cataracts, knowingly, to unscreened Fs, to throw entire litters of affected & carrier pups.

    Testing does not guarantee that dogs who are carriers or even dogs who will be affected (but don’t currently show symptoms) will NOT be bred; making tests mandatory & putting the onus on vets to file the results on an open website would, OTOH, take the option to pretend their dog is “fine” out of the owner’s / breeder’s control.
    The PennHIP reporting system files every dog’s rads, good, bad, or indifferent, by breed; nobody gets to deny that FTC / AKC-Ch Finnegan’s Wake has cr*p hips along with his good head, soft mouth, & excellent blind retrieve.
    OFA allows the breeder or owner to opt out, without disclosure, & breed w/o notifying the owners of the dogs they mate. Verbal statements that “my dog has good hips & knees” or whatever, aren’t worth the paper they aren’t printed on. :rolleyes:

    Cheers,
    - terry

    .
     
  13. SpicyBulldog

    SpicyBulldog PetForums Senior

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    Yeah you told me that you couldn't remember and wasn't going to reread the book. I haven't nagged you to do so, only saying the search didn't yield desired results (not sure why you'd have different results on kindle anyway). I did spend 40 mins searching for different words then had to go through the actual results which can be a lot depending on the word.
    If you found it I would thank you. Not sure why I'd apologize since asking for page # references isn't doing something wrong or offensive. I also asked so I could read the context and exactly what he was saying since that's important. I didn't say I doubt you, but wanted to read it for myself didn't know that required an apology.

    I would have to look through journals and articles. Why would you want only diseases found in more than one breed? Diseasee found in one or two breeds are still very important, most new diseases would be that way. As many genetic diseases are actually caused by old mutations that's why they're widespread. Breeders are breeding specific breeds, if a novel mutation occurs in a breed it is important to recognize it and attempt to figure mode of inheritance and how to pevent producing it and eventually develop a test.
    Which genetic test developing is another reason the list of genetic diseases has increased. Some diseases are the same clinically but caused by different genes. Testing rules them out as being the same whether they've been in a breed for a long time or whether it is more recently seen. Some of these diseases are only found in a breed or two and others are found in several breeds once a test is developed that detects the gene.
    So again it is dependent on the specific breed, you'll note I was talking about my breed as far as test being applicable at a young age. I also asked about breeds that have mostly late on set diseases? Again how would waiting until 2 help.
    Bloat can happen in "any dog" at "any age" but is seen more often in larger breeds, deep chest breeds and the average age for bloat is also 7 years old, so waiting until 2 and assuming it would likely show by then is a ridiculous notion.
    I'm not sure why one would need access to an actual vet record. I wouldn't expect a dog to have been treated for a bunch of genetic diseases by age 2 or so. Secondly breeders share information they don't need to give full access to vet record, they simply say they've observed this in that dog or a few dogs in their line have shown this. The reason why I know what issues are associated with what lines is because of respective breeders of those lines.
    So discussing test, again I could have a fully health tested dog at a year and breed that dog their next heat or at will if a male. Are some things not testable? Yes demodex usually appears in puppies. Cancer normally don't see that until a dog is at least 5 and as old as 10+. So neither disease is relevant to 2 years old, one appears well before and the other typically years after.

    Yes there are dishonest breeders and those making irresponsible decisions. Tools like tests and screening are only helpful when properly applied. How on earth is this relevant to what I was saying? I'd think obviously I was talking about using the tools correctly.

    Nothing wrong with breeding carriers to non carriers. Having clear by parentage is great though. If you're getting a puppy or looking to do a breeding with someone else's dog it really isn't all that hard to ask for proof. Taking the word that the dog(s) are fine would be a willful choice by someone and actually wouldn't cut it for many, they need to see the results.
    I think it would be great if there was mandatory health testing required by registries with the results available to the public. It isn't that I don't agree with your type of thinking, I just know that I can easily ask for results (normally pretty easy to spot a liar) and refuse to buy a puppy if breeder won't / can't furnish results. What I do think this would be helpful in is being able to track more in lines, you could have info on dogs in the pedigree AND extended pedigree to see relative info. This is very important for EBVs and getting an idea on polygenic diseases.
    In my own example I would have had to do pennhip since OFA requires dogs to be 24 months, unless you're doing pre lims I suppose.
    Again if someone gets a failing score and choosing not to make that public it is still on say bitch owner to ask for results. You still get these results mailed to you. If they say the dog is OFA'd and results are not on site and you ask you're either going to be shown failing results and can pass on breeding or they're going to dance around it or make excuses and then you're going to laugh and either know 1 of 2 things.....the dog was either NEVER OFA'd or was and failed / is displastic or maybe even borderline and it's a hard pass on that breeding. I totally understand the need for transparency, but also understand it easy to spot fakes for serious breeders. Byb and less experienced consumers can be duped or they simply don't care, hence why they buy from byb / pet stores or why one is probably breeding their own unhealth tasted dog to an untested or failing dog.
     
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