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WARNING - disturbing video: 'teaching' a dog to walk//resistant frightened adult-GSD

Discussion in 'Dog Training and Behaviour' started by leashedForLife, May 9, 2011.


  1. leashedForLife

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    An Alpha Dog

    the videos on this page are upsetting & saddening - the dog is dragged, forced, coerced & flooded.
    the MUZZLE they use on him is a TUBE or groomer's muzzle, & they are IMO dam*ed lucky he does not
    pass out or vomit & inhale his vomitus, possibly dying or developing inhalation pneumonia.
    puking when highly-upset & overheated is a common consequence in dogs.
    only a properly-fitted box muzzle is safe for anything more than a few minutes' use, as it lets the dog
    pant freely & breathe with an open airway.


    four hours of nonstop physical confrontation is IMO cruelty, even if we ignore the dog's obvious fear
    & emotional distress, & look only at his physical state - look at the color of his tongue, stuck out like a tab
    from a slot as he pants desperately after darkness falls, it is deep red-purple.
     
  2. CarolineH

    CarolineH PetForums VIP

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    I've not watched it because I have seen it before and it was just as maddening and sickening the first time round. :( It's a disgusting way to treat any animal and I am afraid that if I saw someone do that to a dog I would explode! :mad: Thing is, you read through it and you can see where that vicious woman has got her 'knowledge' from before you even get to the bottom of the page! People like that ought to be banned from going anywhere near a dog until they had learned their subject properly and realised how cruel they have been.
     
  3. TheCozyPet

    TheCozyPet PetForums Junior

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    I did not watch the video. Couldn't stand to see animals being abused. It's sick how some people torture animals. :(
     
  4. Cleo38

    Cleo38 PetForums VIP

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    Poor dog, you can see in the last clip that the woman is starting to get really angry with him & is jerking his lead very hard.

    Also, why would stopping his tail going between his legs 'help him snap out of his negative state of mind'?
     
  5. RobD-BCactive

    RobD-BCactive PetForums VIP

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    This page was discussed a short while back in this thread http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/157574-alpha-dog.html?highlight=Alpha+dog, what stands out is how often the dogs are trying to get the PL's to calm down :D

    Personally it seems bizarre to me, that despite all the times humans get bitten on the show inspiring that site; that ppl are attracted to the challenge of "holding the wolf by it's ears" as certain Emperor of Rome is meant to have said.

    But I'd much rather that we find and discuss positive examples. The beagle walking video for example by sarabeagle for example was nice to see. If you find that, it's obvious her dog is enjoying interacting wth her, rather than trying to avoid & flee from a distressing situation. I've had some lovely positive walks lately, with eager and sociable dogs, under good control with calm positive non control-freak handling; not the chaos predicted by the old school.
     
  6. Rottiefan

    Rottiefan PetForums VIP

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    There's only one way to describe these types of 'trainers'...oh, sorry 'dog psychologists' :rolleyes: :blink:

    Brainwashed!
     
  7. leashedForLife

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    oops, missed that one - i didn't know the clip [or page] had already come up in discussion :eek:
    yes, it has the suction of a whirlpool.
    Cool. :thumbup:
     
  8. leashedForLife

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    YouTube - Toy Manchester Terrier Target Training

    some quibbles -
    * her treats are WAY too-big; the dog should be able to swallow them, a 1/8th inch to 1/4th inch cube is plenty.
    quality, not quantity.

    * her criteria are sloppy - does she want one forepaw, both, the dog's nose only? Who knows?
    certainly not the dog :lol: who is mostly offering both forepaws and a nose-touch.

    but U can easily see how touching a target - one's palm for a taller dog, the end of a target-stick for toy-dogs, etc -
    can become a simple way to direct a dog, whether to heel, on recall, to place the dog & self-stack in the breed-ring,
    to have a dog in a theatre production hit their mark, face a certain way, & so on.

    look at the difference in body-language & behavior, here: there is no leash, the dog is free in a fenced yard,
    there are other things that could be done by this dog, but the target training is more engaging than say,
    sniffing for mice, barking at the neighbor, looking for squirrels in the trees, etc.

    this dog is freely choosing to engage & learn. :001_smile: no coercion needed.
     
  9. lucysnewmum

    lucysnewmum PetForums Senior

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    leashed for life got it in a nutshelll.....

    a dog who willingly engages in training is a testament to the understanding and knowledge of a good trainer!
     
  10. Nellybelly

    Nellybelly PetForums VIP

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    That video is very disturbing:( I don't do well with gentle pulling on the lead, and that was just so cruel and unnecessary. The dog is clearly very stressed and frightened :( Definitely animal cruelty!
     
  11. Lady.turbo.wrx

    Lady.turbo.wrx PetForums Member

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    I did view the Video..... Disgraceful thats not training that just Sickening Abuse..
     
  12. snoopydo

    snoopydo PetForums VIP

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    **********************************************************

    I watched an episode of the Dog Whisperer where Ceaser milan Had a Dog out in a city centre '' The owner had a problem taking the Dog out into crowds as the dog was scared of being surrounded by lots of people''.

    The Dog had his Tail between his legs the whole time Ceasar actually Tied The Dogs Tail to his lead :eek:

    He reckoned if if the tail is ''forced'' up the Dogs negitivity will vanish :eek: Hang on, It being Forced up.....How doe's that work it only makes the Dog feel better if he is putting it up on his own...:confused:

    Thats like going up to a Dog and holding it's tail and wagging it for him..Would that make him feel happy?

    OR like going up to a person and physically Turning their mouth up into a Smile and telling them they will feel happy with a smile on their face...
    :rolleyes:

    Forced Body Actions / Language cannot work imo. They obviously have to be there naturally.

    I've not watched the video yet I'd have to work myself up for that..

    But it sounds awful. :( And from what I've read this GSD is being trained through Fear Tatics it will not work...No one wants to own a Dog that only behaves out of Fear and becouse it's scared of you :mad::mad::mad::mad:
     
  13. NicoleW

    NicoleW PetForums VIP

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    Duke swallows chicken wings whole, no treat too big for my pooch! Next week... Ducks...
     
  14. RobD-BCactive

    RobD-BCactive PetForums VIP

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    I agree it's abusive the way they act.

    However there just may be something behind it, so I would not just totally dismiss the possibility that it has something behind it, that might get scientifically tested. If you're relaxed and sit facing ppl (even a picture of someone) open armed and non defensive, it's hard not to smile and feel happy. There's associations, between what you're doing and emotional state.

    Obviously, being forced to do that, you'ld feel angry, resentful and even more fearful. How long for, I'm not sure, and children do get made to do things, and end up enjoying them after all.

    Just trying to be fair, I don't want to get sucked into it, just suggesting a totally closed mind might not be right. I'd be happy if someone has proven, it's not the case. After all, dog's emotions do "burn out" and become less intense, and I've seen an upsetting procedure done live to a blustering fearful dog, which whilst stressful at least appeared to work well enough, or the practice would not survive. Bit like falling in the deep end and discovering you float after all.

    [ An over threshold lunging dog was effectively put over threshold, close to the cause of the fear. ]
     
  15. snoopydo

    snoopydo PetForums VIP

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    I hav'nt got a totally Closed mind but I just think forced Body languague can't work. I like to see a Wagging Tail, Tail up becouse it's the Dogs Choice.

    Mind you, Having said that I have got Sasha on a halti until she learns to stop Dragging me when on walks so maybe that would seem Wrong to some too. Obviously a Dog walking by your side on a loose lead is better. But at the mo it's working and She's not got me pulling her back all the time.. Its not forever I'm doing both at the mo She gets treats when walking by my side on the halt and I'm doing the same on her collar ''sometimes'' So we are getting there :)
     
    #15 snoopydo, May 10, 2011
    Last edited: May 10, 2011
  16. RobD-BCactive

    RobD-BCactive PetForums VIP

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    I disagree, the term "Braindead" appeals more to me! :001_tt1:
     
  17. leashedForLife

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    think back, Rob - way, way back... - are there things U were forced to do as a child?
    do U continue to enjoy them as an adult? How many grown-ups who were forced to do their piano-practice
    still play as adults, with pleasure?

    i was forced to attend Brownie meetings, & not only did i find them dead-boring, but i hated the Brownies
    for years afterward, & deeply resented my mother's insistence on going to dull meetings with girls that lived
    a long way off, whom i never got to know.

    conversely, i loved 4-H & altho the kids came from a 40-minute surrounding area, we were all farm-kids
    who had something in common & we felt comfortable together, while Brownies was a bizarre mix of future
    sorority sisters destined for Ivy league colleges & down-at-heel rural poor, with everything in between.
    * flooding is a common cause of hypervigilance, distrust & hypersensitization:
    far from forcing the dog to relax & 'burn-out' their fearful or resistant emotions, it sets the dog up
    to be extremely aware of anything that might indicate a repeat event.


    IOW - flooding backfires: it does not make things better, & it often makes things worse.

    * Cesar Millan insists on grooming the Maltese who was terrified of scissors around his face? flooding.
    what happened? the Dawg-Wrassler was bitten quite badly, & IMO predictably, & the dog was not
    any more 'relaxed' than before. [Cesar was also doggone lucky that the owner was an RN, who cleaned
    & dressed his bloody hands. Another day, another dog - another scar; there's a warning there, IMO.]


    * Sophia Yin uses steady pairing of handling or grooming with treats, on a known fearful dog?
    not flooded; the dog learns a new & happy association, & over time grows comfy with the procedure.

    See YouTube for 3 videos:
    * Safe or unsafe handling of an aggro dog? [Yin's commentary, CM/DW clip of the Maltese - who is not aggro,
    but deeply fearful]
    YouTube - Safe or Unsafe Handling of an Aggressive Dog

    * dog aggro during nail trims [Yin]
    YouTube - Dog Aggressive for Toenail Trim | drsophiayin.com - Note: Dr Yin's helper is not well-co-ordinated, & they also go on
    for too long a time with some steps [tapping the nail: tap, tap, tap, tap, tap... cut it OUT, can'tcha?!?...]
    or they hustle from one stage to the next step too quickly; the quicker U go, the behinder U get.
    words to live by in B-Mod - the dog's reactions determine the speed of progress, & stopping before a blow-out
    saves much struggle & regret.

    * Tucker nail trim
    YouTube - CIA Case File: 'Tucker' Nail Trim
    a Canis Film Festival winner: an Airedale who was rolled & pinned from young puphood
    has become dangerously sensitized & violently resists any restraint or handling; a clicker & treats
    are introduced, & in real time he learns to offer his paw & allow it to be held, & a claw clipped. :thumbup:
     
  18. RobD-BCactive

    RobD-BCactive PetForums VIP

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    Yes, I was forced to go on walks! I'd rather have doen something else, but then as teenager when we got our 2nd dog, I became the lead walker. I was made to eat spinach, which I hated but like now.

    However reason and persuasion and premacking were the common levers, not physical force. On stuff like "Scouts" I had a free choice. School homework was "forced" by the Teachers, and occasionally I'be been accused of over keen study since then, though I hated it at time :)
     
    #18 RobD-BCactive, May 10, 2011
    Last edited: May 10, 2011
  19. RobD-BCactive

    RobD-BCactive PetForums VIP

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    I will be on the look out, personally it was stupid and sickening. The woman could hve walked my dog around the horse, because he was not reacting or fearful. I would not have wanted her to take him very close if he showed any distress.

    Terry, I did what I could, and it's partly because the lady owner was sensibly doing Cleo38 style livestock desensitisation that the trainer/horse carer, offered to take into the paddock. It was great to see her pass, and the dog over 5 pass by's go from spazzing out, to realising she was safe & it was fun with her owner.

    Let's hope the dog doesn't focus on the horse next time, or become hyper-vigilent in that place. Thanks for explaining what is wrong with the over-threshold approach, the trouble is, some ppl there would have been impressed, wheras I was unhappy at the way the dog was treated. To the coercion camp, my feelings would look extremely wet!
     
    #19 RobD-BCactive, May 10, 2011
    Last edited: May 10, 2011
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