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Ultimate Brexit Thread

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by MrsZee, Dec 10, 2017.


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  1. Satori

    Satori One of Life's Winners.

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    No, I was just reflecting on the question as to what would persuade a leaver to switch positions to support for a soft brexit.

    Never a day goes by that I don't hear somebody petitioning for a soft Brexit though, be they social notworker, celeb, business leader or politician from either side of the house (umma, Clarke, soubry, cable et al....). Can they, the politicians in particular, not show a shred of integrity and petition to remain? Some even claim that a soft Brexit is what their constituents voted for. Liars.

    That's just paraphrasing 'why do you prefer leave to remain'. Asked and answered ad nauseum.
     
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  2. Satori

    Satori One of Life's Winners.

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    I do, but I doubt the consequences will be severe and hope they will not be. Any such damage will be inflicted by the EU if there is any, not by the UK. Acceptable collateral damage in the broad scheme of things anyway.
     
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  3. Calvine

    Calvine PetForums VIP

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    Well said that girl!
     
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  4. stockwellcat.

    stockwellcat. About to start a new beginning.

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    I do care about Northern Ireland. The UK Prime Minister has made it clear that the UK does not seek to have a hard border on the Ireland of Ireland, but lets see what the EU (That includes the republic of Ireland) decide as they are the ones talking about a hard border instead of trying to avoid it happening.
     
  5. Elles

    Elles PetForums VIP

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    We could fully fund our NHS with the money from tax avoidance. We could also give the NHS the money we give to the Eu.

    We could also vote in a Government that would look after our best interests, if we feel the current one isn’t.

    Do you think any of these would or will happen?

    Why do we need the Eu to tell our government what to do? None of the above have anything to do with the Eu. Wanting to stay in the Eu because your politics aren’t in line with the current elected British government and you want the Eu to interfere isn’t a good reason and would come under the ‘taking back control’ that people insist our government didn’t lose.
     
  6. Goblin

    Goblin PetForums VIP

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    There's a difference between trying to disprove and providing evidence based information demonstrating something is false. Simply as you don't like the result makes it no less true. Rather than repeating what has been shown to be false, you need to actually look at the evidence which shows you are wrong. Repeating "UK will be better off" does not make it true simply through repetition. You are unable to show anything which shows the UK better off outside the EU which actually stands up to reason and the facts as they stand.
     
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  7. KittenKong

    KittenKong PetForums VIP

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  8. KittenKong

    KittenKong PetForums VIP

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    So, what you're saying is it will be the EU's fault even though the UK government unilaterally decided to leave, not forgetting NI, like Gibraltar and Scotland voted to remain!

    Heard it all now.
     
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  9. KittenKong

    KittenKong PetForums VIP

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    Leave the CU and SM= Hard Border between NI-UK and ROI=EU.

    It's that simple.
     
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  10. stockwellcat.

    stockwellcat. About to start a new beginning.

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    Not as simple as that no.

    What about the CTA (Common Travel Area) which predates the EEC, EC and EU (CTA agreement made in 1922)?

    This question came up in Parliament a number of times before PMQ's (on Wednesday) this week in the Northern Ireland Questions session. It also doesn't help that there is no Northern Ireland Assembly for the last 13 months or there abouts.

    The CTA was in the position papers about Northern Ireland and the border.
     
    #1690 stockwellcat., Feb 9, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  11. stockwellcat.

    stockwellcat. About to start a new beginning.

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  12. Arnie83

    Arnie83 PetForums VIP

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    Thanks for the advice.

    When you say 'better off' do you mean economically?
     
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  13. noushka05

    noushka05 Unicorn denier. Snowflake. Activist ;)

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    This shambles is not the EUs fault. They have been more than accommodating. The government knew the rules on the single market & customs union . And the EU have been clear from the beginning - May did a deal we would stay during the transition - now reneged on. Who in their right minds will trust us now? The tories are so far right now they're ukip :/ .

    What you don't seem to understand( despite me showing you the Lancet impact studies over & over again) is we already know Brexit will be 'potentially catastrophic' for our NHS. Now surely you aren't going dismiss the Lancet studies as 'fake news' & fear mongering? And we're are already poorer thanks to the tories & brexit.

    Prior to brexit we were top of the table now we've sunk to the bottom. Leaving is going to be astronomical. The governments own numbers show that the cost of leaving both the single market and the customs union is so damaging that it cannot be offset by trade deals with rest of world. So how are we going to be better off by leaving???
    1. [​IMG]

    Yes the tories will punish us with the severest austerity , they will rip up all those EU regulations which protect us & our environment when we leave, but even if we had a progressive government I'd still want to stay. As I still haven't seen one tangible scrap of evidence that leaving will benefit us in someway.. Our NHS will be severely affected by leaving the EU Elles. And what about euratom?.

    What about the impact leaving euratom will have on cancer sufferers Elles?

    Brexit’s most toxic fallout

    http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/brexit-toxic-fallout-1-5368921

    We're not 'taking back control'. We never lost control. The UK has lost 76 out of total of 2466 EU legislation votes. And the reason it lost those 76 votes is they were votes in which the UK didnt take part because the UK has opt outs in those areas. So there hasn't been a single major EU law implemented against our will. But with the tories withdrawal bill we'll soon know what its like to really 'lose control'.
     
    #1693 noushka05, Feb 9, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  14. Goblin

    Goblin PetForums VIP

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    Weren't you saying that "standards" were not needed as people have a choice. We can ignore things like American poor quality imports as people have a choice to buy or not. What is gambling if not a choice?

    Funny that you complain that this thread is repeating itself. Why attempt to use points when you have already been shown that it was known before the referendum that leaving would mean the adherance to the CTA could not guaranteed? The UK, on leaving the EU has made adherance to the CTA a problem for which there is real solution. When voting to leave the EU you voted to potentially break the CTA. Unless of course the UK adheres to the rules of the single market. Tell me how can the UK control their borders whilst having a completely open one? What does this mean for immigration, security, trade etc?
     
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  15. noushka05

    noushka05 Unicorn denier. Snowflake. Activist ;)

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    Its worth reminding people what the Ambassador said. The hard right tories just don't care how many jobs are at risk.

    1. [​IMG]
     
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  16. noushka05

    noushka05 Unicorn denier. Snowflake. Activist ;)

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  17. stockwellcat.

    stockwellcat. About to start a new beginning.

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    No one voted to break up the CTA agreement in the EU Referendum as the CTA agreement is maintained by the UK, Isle of Man and Irish Governments and nothing to do with the EU. The CTA is a bilaterial agreement between the UK, Isle of Man and Ireland.

    The UK Government mentioned maintaining the CTA in its position papers after Brexit outside of the Customs Union and Single Market.

    MP's mentioned the CTA in the Northern Ireland Questions and Answers session in Parliament on Wednesday. This is where this came from @Goblin not wanting to reignite an old debate.

    Anyhow. Northern Ireland might have a voice soon with the devolved area EU negotiations (which go on behind the scenes). It looks as is Arelene Foster is to become First Minister and the new Sinn Fein Leader to become her Deputy if this power sharing agreement comes to fruition.
     
  18. Jesthar

    Jesthar PetForums VIP

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    Given that the government has been repeatedly asserting that Brexit is going to happen, perhaps they are choosing to spend their energy campaigning for damage limitation instead?

    I think calling them liars for saying their constituents desire a soft Brexit is a bit steep. Exactly what the 'EU' part of 'Leave the EU' meant in real terms was never specifically defined prior to the election, which has lead to a lot of confusion and arguing since. As far as I personally can tell, the hardest of hard Brexiteers believe it means leaving not only the EU itself, but also the Customs Union, the Single Market and any other agency or organisation that is connected in any way to the EU - hence why the airlines are so concerned about complications with air travel, I believe at least one airline is already a 'Brexit clause' to 2019 and beyond advance tickets which renders the tickets invalid if the aviation issues surrounding leaving the EU aren't sorted by then. The 'standard' hard Brexiteers (again, by my definition) want to ditch at least the Customs Union and the Single Market, and (like the hardest of the hard) would also be happy trading on WTO rules for the next several years. From there it's confused sliding scale of those who want to remain in one or the other of the CU or the SM plus some/all of the other entities, finishing up with those who just wanted to leave the EU and only the EU and keep everything else.

    Thats just MY experience of people who voted 'Leave' too. I dread to think how many more permutations exist beyond my sphere of experience!

    Actually it wasn't, I'm genuinely interested. Soft Brexit is not Remain, but again speaking personally then if the Govenrment do hit the eject button I'd much rather a soft landing than a hard one. I'd rather not go back to the days of things taking weeks to clear customs, or having to standards test to multiple different sets of rules rather than just one in order to access the majority of foreign markets for starters, and that's just the tip of that particular iceberg. So I genuinely am curious as to why a hard Brexit is so appealing to many. I do understand if you'd prefer not to answer, though.
     
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  19. Goblin

    Goblin PetForums VIP

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    No you voted knowing, unless you didn't know what you were voting for that the CTA agreement could not be guaranteed and that a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland was more than likely. It's between the UK, Isle of Man and the EU as Ireland is part of the EU and part of schengen area. Maybe you could explain why you think 26 countries should compromise their security, trade and immigration arrangements simply because the UK decided to leave the UK?

    Ah the UK Government says.. no mention of how practical it is or how to realistically achieve it. There were also 58 impact assessments apparantly. Notice you avoid the question about how does the UK control it's borders with one wide open? In case you haven't noticed, politicians say things which are not actually true. Politicians have also stated leaving would be easy, leaving would mean the UK was a land of milk and honey. Trade deals will miraculously appear to replace the advantages 70% of UK trade currently enjoys due to the EU (single market and associated trade agreements with the rest of the world) etc etc. Of course there's a reason leave politicians like you to listen to them rather than the experts and looking at the evidence.


    May have been mentioned, already been shown that the CTA could not be guaranteed. The government still doesn't have a solution. Even though part of the first phase of negotiations, it was simply postponed to the second.

    Ah Northern Ireland already has a voice. It's called the DUP "supporting" May.
     
    #1699 Goblin, Feb 9, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  20. Zaros

    Zaros Pet Forums, P/resident Evil

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    The fake war on terror and selling arms to fight an imaginary enemy.

    I mean how much do you reckon it costs to build and fully arm a Jet fighter in order for it to bomb a herder of livestock, his wife, his children and his humble mud hut in the back of beyond?
     
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