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Type

Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by rona, Jul 29, 2009.


  1. rona

    rona Guest

    How do you choose type?
    What would be a good example?
    How can anyone really do this in breeds as diverse as Labradors and Golden Retrievers.
    Different sizes, different builds and different shapes :confused:
     
  2. sallyanne

    sallyanne Guest

    Basically breed type is the traits and charaterists that breed have which is different to other breeds.

    Here's an article different breed but explains very well I think Breed Type in the Pembroke Welsh Corgi

    So what traits does the Lab / Retriever have which is different from other breeds ?
     
  3. rona

    rona Guest

    I don't know, that's why I'm asking!!!!
    How can you have type with breeds as diverse as these?
     
  4. Jess2308

    Jess2308 PetForums VIP

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    Well, for me personally i breed for the type I like as i interpret the breed standard. There are certain lines, or dogs that i like and i have an idea in my head of my ideal dog and that is what i would be trying to produce when breeding. Thats not to say that my idea type is the "correct" one, the breed standards are open for interpretation (as is shown very often in showing, what one judge loves, another hates!) but i think its always important to breed for the type that you personally want and see as correct to the breed standard.

    ETA: I personally dont like how labradors have such variety. A show dog should be able to do a days work, they shouldnt be fat with very short legs and unable to move properly. The aim when breeding our labs is to breed "show bred" labs for the ring, that could also quite easily do a good days work, which i think we have been successful with so far. We only have one puppy we've bred that has been used for gundog work (the rest are all just pets) but i would like to think that they are all capable of it, as are the parents :)
     
    #4 Jess2308, Jul 30, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2009
  5. rona

    rona Guest

    Thank you for that.
    So it is just down to one persons own interpretation of the breed standard?
    This is what I mean though, what is beautiful to one may not be to another, therefore you get variety, so who is to say which dogs are good and which are not?
    It's impossible to standardize some breeds, therefore they cannot have a type surely?
     
  6. Jess2308

    Jess2308 PetForums VIP

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    Your question was "how do you choose type" - thats what my post was a response to, how i choose type. And the variety you mention in labradors.

    But yes, as far as my breeding goes i ensure that my dogs have been proven as good enough to be bred from by exhibiting them in shows under several different judges and then i would breed to a dog that I feel will produce puppies of a type that will, hopefully, match as closely to my ideal picture of that breed as i can get :)

    Its the same as when im judging, i have a picture of my ideal example of that breed in my head and try to find a dog that matches as close as possible to that, and place them on severity of the deviation from that and how that will affect their health/soundness. Its the same principle with the way i breed my dogs. I breed to produce dogs to show (as well as pets, temperment is paramount of course but thats not the discussion here) and i would not want to show a dog i didnt like and did not think was of good quality :)


    The way IMO to say who's dogs are good and who's aren't is, as i said previously, to show them (more than once!!) under people who know the breed and see how they do. Obviously some judges wont like your "type" of dog, which is why you should try them under more than one!

    I dont think theres anything wrong having different types, as long as you stick the the breed standard. But when you get the variation we do in labs, and in goldies, i think that starts to be a concern. Some of the working ones are almost pointer build, whereas some of the show ones could be classes as corgis :eek: But thats something that breeders are trying to deal with. It doesnt help that labs are bred on such a huge scale by "pet" breeders, and of course puppy farmers, so a lot of the dogs you see day to day are neither working nor show, they're just poor quality.
     
  7. lauren001

    lauren001 PetForums VIP

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    In older established breeds then "type" is more uniform, though still may vary. Breeders have been breeding similar looking dogs for a long time. You do get freaks occasionally who are "perfect" and are recognised as such and may influence the look of the breed over time. You also get "working" versions of some breeds too.

    However newer established breeds may be very different in lots of different ways. A breeder may have a vision and interpretation of the standard and continue down that route and another breeder may have a sightly different emphasis and go down a quite different route. Judges can get confused and may also have their own vision, and thus a dog may do well one day and a dog with a completely different look/type does well the next under a different judge.

    At the end of the day it is what breeders of a certain breed like and can breed. The standard may say small ears, and every dog produced over a set period of time has small ears then if one comes along with slightly larger ears and the breed as a whole likes the overall look of that dog and it does well at shows, then they will try and copy that look and eventually all show dogs will have slightly larger ears and the breed "look" has thus changed. If it changes radically then the "standard" will be changed too. This is a slightly exaggerated example most changes are far more subtle and it is only when you look back at the champions of a few years back you realise how things change.

    Type is a much maligned word, breeders often say they are breeding for "type", but in my experience it can vary greatly and what is "typey" to one is not so to another.


    Good point.
     
  8. davehyde

    davehyde Banned

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    Originally Posted by Jess2308
    It doesnt help that labs are bred on such a huge scale by "pet" breeders, and of course puppy farmers, so a lot of the dogs you see day to day are neither working nor show, they're just poor quality.

    omg you cant malign "pet breeders" they are all experts:D:D
     
  9. rona

    rona Guest

    I have been trying to have adult interaction here, if you have nothing to add please keep quiet.
    What's you're problem?
     
  10. rona

    rona Guest

    But what if you do not want to show?
    I don't really get this, so many breeders say you must breed to type but type is a movable thing,depending on what is in fashion at the time :confused:
     
  11. EmzieAngel

    EmzieAngel PetForums VIP

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    I don't know much about types in breeds.
    But after reading what Jess has said, does that mean my Labrador is poor quality, because he came from a pet breeder?
    x
     
  12. Freyja

    Freyja PetForums VIP

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    Another with a definite difference in type is greyhounds. The show type and the racing type. Both are basically the same dog but the show type are much heavier boned bigger dog that were bred from the old coursing dogs. The racing type are much smaller fine boned bred for speed.

    They can be shown in the same class and unlike other breeds a good racer could beat a show bred my own racing bitch has done just that. But to my knowledge the 2 types have not been crossed I know in other countries they do but it is frowned upon here. The show people are fussy as to who their pups go to and unless you are known in the breed you will find it difficult to get a show type greyhound
     
  13. lauren001

    lauren001 PetForums VIP

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    Perhaps and perhaps not, it just depends on the quality of the breeding of your dog. Does it matter as long as he is healthy and you adore him?

    That is correct, type can bend with fashion or with the sudden influx of a whole lot of progeny of a certain highly regarded dog, flooding the show scene.
    Or a nice color, or a shorter leg or a longer leg or in any number of traits.
    Judges may pick this dog with "star" quality that just shows really well and breeders then jump on the bandwagon. By putting the right dogs together you could change your "type" in a few generations or even in one generation if the genes are strong enough.
     
  14. EmzieAngel

    EmzieAngel PetForums VIP

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    Well I guess not, but what is it that makes a good quality dog?
     
  15. Dundee

    Dundee Banned

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    It's really down to personal interpretation and personal taste. The breed standard is a very loose set of guidelines that were set down by the labrador club many decades ago. The labradors that were winning in the ring back then (that were then all worked too) are very different to the labradors in the ring today and yet the breed standard is still the same. For example - the breed standard says... well sprung ribs, but it doesn't say how well sprung ;) That part is down to interpretation and the judges of the day tend to influence the dogs that are produced. I do think this danger in breeding to show alone is that it has led to exaggerations in many breeds, some more obvious than others.

    Even within these both showing and working, there are variations, so as Jesse says, you are free to choose the type you like. I tend to be a live and let live sort of person (even if it doesn't always appear so ;) ) and unlike Jess, I don't mind the variation in labradors. It means people can have the type they like. Personally, I don't favour the show type, I find them too heavy and nothing like the original labradors, I prefer the working type, not just because of their look, but also because of thier temperament, intelligence and ability (which sadly has been lost in the show dogs), but I appreciate that many prefer the chunkier show labs and that is fine.
     
    #15 Dundee, Jul 30, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2009
  16. lauren001

    lauren001 PetForums VIP

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    A good quality dog is a dog that often comes from good quality parents and ticks all the boxes as regards the breed standard, has a good temperament and meets the health criteria of that particular breed.

    He may or may not win at shows but he has the "look" of a show dog. He is the right size, right coloration etc.

    Poorer quality dogs can be too small or too large, their coat can be of the wrong quality or colour, their eye or ear or body or head or leg shape can be wrong, their eyes can be the wrong color or not intense enough. They may walk funny, their locomotion is not smooth enough. The whole package can be off balance and not pleasing to the eye of a judge or breed expert.
     
  17. rona

    rona Guest

    I don't know why a dog has to look like a show dog to be classed as good type.
    Many other dogs tick all the boxes of standard but would never be able compete in a show
     
  18. lauren001

    lauren001 PetForums VIP

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    The standard is very flexible, and you are right that some nice dogs wouldn't do well at shows, but I was taking good quality to mean good show quality.
     
  19. Luvdogs

    Luvdogs PetForums VIP

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    Completely Agree with this :), The labs i see at shows at least all look similar, though i prefer them less heavy myself.
    The pet bred, BYB and puppy farmed Labs all look different, some are huge, light eyes, Snipey heads, horrible coats there are so many "types" that half of them don't even look like Labs to me :(
     
  20. EmzieAngel

    EmzieAngel PetForums VIP

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    Lauren thanks for explaining that.

    But even good quality parents can produce a poor quality pup.
    And I also think it's unfair to say that because a dog doesn't "look" like a show dog that they are automatically not of good quality.
    They are only show dogs because of the breed standard.
    Am I right in saying that a show dog is quite chunky? I'm sorry I don't know much about showing at all.
    I would say that my Lab isn't chunky, though I don't mind the chunkier ones either.
     
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