[florafaun]

Hi, I posted earlier but was closed because I stupidly tried to discuss something that rhymes with schlock schmollers. :huh:

This is going to be long and waffly. Sorry

My dog is a neutered male labrador, rescued from the pound when he was about 18mths, april last year. He was very difficult when I got him- he had been neglected (I suspect that's why he's so overly friendly with everyone, he loves attention) and hadn't had any training. He is very very energetic- I would say hyper but then I'd probably get lectured on how he's normal, and I obviously don't walk him enough. People at the park have commented on how extreme his energy seems to be, so I'm sure I'm not imagining it. And we do a lot of exercise every day, twice a day. But still, when we go to the park, he seems to be so excited that he forgets everything he did so well at training (even though training had lots of other dogs there)

Anyway... he's improved a lot since then but one thing that makes me stressed and embarrassed is whenever I go to the park, he'll follow me around off leash fine until he sees another dog, or worse, a car pulling into the carpark, and then (this can vary) sometimes he'll just gallop towards the thing he sees and no matter how hard I yell or scream (and yes, he does this when I have food on me and when I run in the opposite direction, or when I roll around on the ground or blow a whistle or shake a bag of treats, and when I fake a seizure while yelling his name). Are there any other ways of getting a dog to come back when they seem to go conveniently deaf when you call them? It distresses me when I cannot control him and I worry he will get attacked by a dog that doesn't appreciate being jumped on by a goofy labrador who comes charging right at them wanting to play.

People have suggested I use a long lead, which is good advice and I do do sometimes, particularly at the beach but in terms of the park what I am really looking for is a way to control him off leash because when on leash when he wants to run at a dog he'll a) essentially drag me (he is extremely strong) or b) throw a tantrum and lay down and start whining and barking. Oh... I did used to have a head collar which was useful at times for b). Maybe there are things I can do to work on behaviours a) and b), anyway. Also, he has certain dogs who are happy to play with him at the park off leash so I want him to be able to do this without running off towards older, less playful dogs.

So um... to summarize, what I am wondering is
-What are some ways not previously mentioned to help with recall? I have tried food and he doesn't seem to CARE when there's another dog on the other end of the field.

 

[florafaun]

Also re: food, are there any particularly smelly, delicious foods I have not thought of? Have tried steak, banana, cheese, dog roll, kibble, bacon-y treats... apple, carrot, chicken-y treats... actually I think I even tried bacon once though I know they're not meant to have that.

 

[Vicki]

First of all, I don't think you should let him off lead unless your sure that yoiu can control him. Every time he gets the chance to run off he rewards himself and is less likely to listen next time.

I wasn't able to prevent my dog from reewarding herself by running off to other dogs when she was a puppy and that is still a bit of a problem for me, even though she's improved much.

There is no single, simple solution to this kind of problem, but I've done a lot of things that together added up to a better relationship and a more obedient dog. Personally I think that all kinds of working together makes the relationship better and the dog more inclined to stay with you (because you're fun to be with). While out on walks I just don't walk, but make up things for the dog to do, for example climbing on rocks, balancing on fallen tree trunks or park benches, crawl under or jump over fallen logs, look for treats on the ground or in the bark of trees. The only limit is ones own imagiantion.

I also do a lot of obedience exercises while out on walks, but most of all I do scent exercises. for example tracking and looking for hidden obejects. Dogs get much more tired from using their noses than from physical exercise and a dog that regularly does some kind of scent work becomes more calm, and a calm dog is easier to control.

However, that alone wont help if the dog already has learned to disobey recall commands. With my dog I've done a lot of exercises to teach her to restrain herself and to obey even if she's excited and that has helped a lot with the running off to other dogs. For example I taught her to stay in sit, down or stand position while I throw a ball and she has to wait for my command to run after it. I've also taught her to calm down when she gets excited. She gets very excited over toys, so I taught her to relax before I throw the ball. I showed her the toy and then waited for her to stop wagging her tail for a second before I threw the ball (the tail is a good indicator for the dogs mood and easy to observe). Gradually I waited longer before I threw the ball. The first time she wagged her tail furiously, barked, jumped and tried every trick she knew, before she calmed down, but surprisingly enough it didn't take long before she made the connection.

Another exercise that I've done is to throw a ball and stop her while she's running to get it. However, this is tricky because you have to be sure that the dog doesn't rewards itself by disobeying and taking the ball anyway, so to use a helper is a really good idea. If that's not possible, use a lead or something. It's a good idea to start with the ball at a distance and stop the dog just as it's starting , beacause it's easier and the chance for success is higher. Then gradually make it harder for the dog. With my dog I vary the rewards between letting her get the toy directly after she's stopped, recall and then let her run off and get the ball or give her a second ball (with same or better value as the one I threw) that I've got on me.

That is not exactly the same distraction as for example another dog, but if the dog can't be recalled from running for a ball you can't really expect it to come while running for another dog, which is an even bigger distraction.

 

[Phoolf]

I would start off with the basics, and really you should use your long line on the park as well as the beach. If he has learned to ignore your recall command I would ditch and it come up with another one and start from scratch with it, if you say 'come here' and he knows to ignore this, you need to come up with something like 'by me' or something, even jellytots would do if he learns to associate it with coming back. You could also start whistle training and you need to find something that reinforces him, a tug toy, a squeaky ball, something he goes MAD for, and when he returns to it you play with him so he gets his reward. Practice off in your house first, then your garden, and as soon as you see a dog on the park in the distance get his attention, start doing some obedience training with heel work, looking at you, sitting, lying down etc. to try and keep get his concentration up. I think a good obedience class would help too, it seems just like my dog at times is obsessed with dogs, so working in the same space as other dogs should help him overcome this.

 

[Freddie and frank]

hi, ive had this same trouble with my two...one more than the other.
they seem to like hot dog sausages but have also taken steak with me.anything to get them back.
i use a long line sometimes when i know frank wont come back...eg, when theres deer about.i did have to change my command from 'frank come' to 'here'
when he's trotting off in front of me i recall him back increasing the distance a bit each time.seems to help with him.
just have to shout treat at freddie and he'll come back.

it's easier for me to take them out before dinner so they're hungry.if they know i've got food they're more responsive.i did some training with frank recently when i had to take his food bowl away so he got fed from me when he gave me the correct behaviour.it's inconvenient but it's helped.i cant always do it but it makes the treats high value.

mental stimulation games before you go out too can help.hide a toy and get him to find it.also, i occasionaly play hide and seek with my two...i hide and shout 'find me'. when they find me they get a treat and a fuss.it's worked when we're out on a walk and they decide to hide from me.
i know it's hard to stay calm in these situations but it does help.

all the best.

 

[smokeybear]

Why can't I get a reliable recall?

'Come' is no harder to train than any other behaviour but in real life it has a huge number of criteria that have to be raised one at a time in order to guarantee success.
Often when puppies are brought home to their new owners this is the first time they have ever been separated from their dam and siblings and so they naturally attach themselves to their new family by following them about everywhere. Owners find this quite attractive and wrongly assume that this trait will continue into adolescence/adulthood, whatever the circumstances. A dangerous trap to fall into…

At some point in time, usually from around 6 - 10 months, depending on the individual, "Velcro" dog will morph into "Bog off" dog (this is especially true of a breed that has been developed to exhibit a high degree of initiative). This is the time when owners suddenly realize that their dog will not recall when it sees another dog/person etc. Not only is this inconvenient but potentially dangerous as the dog could be at risk of injury from a car/train/another dog etc.

How and when do I start with a puppy?

My advice is to prepare for this inevitability from the day you take your puppy home. If you are lucky the breeder will have started this process whilst still in the nest by conditioning the puppies to a whistle blown immediately before putting the food bowl down during weaning.

Dogs learn by cause and effect ie sound of whistle = food. If you, the new owner, continue this from the moment your puppy arrives you will lay down strong foundations for the future.

By using the whistle in association with meals/food you need to establish the following criteria:
• Come from across the room.
• Come from out of sight
• Come no matter who calls
• Come even if you are busy doing something else
• Come even if you are asleep.
• Come even if you are playing with something/someone else
• Come even if you are eating

Once this goal has been realized in the house, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the garden.

Once this goal has been realized in the garden, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the park/field etc.

To train this, or any other behaviour:

1. Make it easy for the dog to get it right
2. Provide sufficient reward

Do not expect a dog to come away from distractions in the park until you have trained it to come to you in the park when no diversions are around. Be realistic and manage your expectations; your sphere of influence/control over your dog may be only 20m to begin with, therefore do not hazard a guess that the dog, at this level of training, will successfully recall from 50m or more away. Distance, like every other criterion, must be built up over time.

Some simple rules to follow when training the recall:

• Whistle/signal/call only once (why train the dog to deliberately ignore your first command?)
• Do not reinforce slow responses for the dog coming eventually after it has cocked its leg, sniffed the tree etc (you get what you train!)
• If you know that the dog will not come back to you in a certain situation, go and get him rather than risk teaching him that he can ignore you. (If you have followed the programme correctly you will never put your dog in a position to fail).
• Practise recalling the dog, putting him on the lead for a few seconds, reinforce with food/toy etc and immediately release the dog. Do this several times during a walk etc so that the dog does not associate a recall with going on the lead and ending the walk or being put on the lead with the cessation of fun.
• Eventually, when the behaviour is very strong, alternate rewards ie verbal praise, physical praise, food, toy and also vary the "value" of the rewards, sometimes a plain piece of biscuit, sometimes a piece of cooked liver etc so that you become a walking slot machine (and we all know how addictive gambling can be)!

In my experience recall training should be consistent and relentless for the first two years of a dog's life before it can be considered truly dependable. You should look on it as a series of incremental steps, rather than a single simple behaviour, and something that will require lifelong maintenance.

What about an older or rescue dog?

Follow the same programme as outlined above however for recalcitrant dogs that have received little or no training, I would recommend dispensing with the food bowl and feeding a dog only during recalls to establish a strong behaviour quickly.

Your training should be over several sessions a day, which means you can avoid the risk of bloat. It is essential that the dog learns that there will be consequences for failure as well as success.

Divide the day's food ration up into small bags (between10 - 30), if the dog recalls first time, it gets food, if it does not, you can make a big show of saying "too bad" and disposing of that portion of food (either throw it away or put aside for the next day).

Again, raise the criteria slowly as outlined in puppy training.

Hunger is very motivating!

For those of you who believe it unfair/unhealthy to deprive a dog of its full daily ration, not having a reliable recall is potentially life threatening for the dog ……………

How do I stop my dog chasing joggers/cyclists/skateboarders/rabbits/deer?

Chasing something that is moving is a management issue. Do not put your dog in a position where it can make a mistake. Again you need to start training from a pup but if you have already allowed your dog to learn and practise this behaviour you may need to rely on a trailing line until your dog is desensitised to these distractions and knows that listening to you results in a great reinforcement. Chasing is a behaviour much better never learned as it is naturally reinforcing to the dog, which makes it hard for you to offer a better reinforcement. If you want to have a bombproof recall while your dog is running away from you then use the following approach:

Your goal is to train so that your dog is totally used to running away from you at top speed, and then turning on a sixpence to run toward you when you give the recall cue.

You need to set up the training situation so that you have total control over the triggers. For this you will need to gain the co-operation of a helper. If you have a toy crazy dog you can practice this exercise by throwing a toy away from the dog towards someone standing 30 or 40 feet away. At the instant the toy is thrown, recall your dog! If the dog turns toward you, back up several steps quickly, creating even more distance between the you and the toy and then throw another toy in the opposite direction (same value as one thrown)..

If the dog ignores you and continues toward the thrown object, your "helper" simply picks the ball up and ignores dog. When dog eventually returns (which it will because it's getting no reinforcement from anyone or anything), praise only. Pretty soon the dog will start to respond to a recall off a thrown toy. You will need to mix in occasions the toy is thrown and the dog is allowed to get it ie you do NOT recall if you want to make sure it does not lose enthusiasm for retrieving.

For the food obsessed dog, you can get your helper to wave a food bowl with something the dog loves in it and then recall the dog as soon as you let it go to run towards the food; again if the dog ignores you and continues to the food, your helper simply ensures the dog cannot access the food and start again. (It is extremely important that the helper does not use your dog's name to call it for obvious reasons).

Gradually increase the difficulty of the recall by letting the dog get closer and closer to the toy/food. Praise the moment the dog turns away from the toy/food in the
early stages of training. Don't wait until the dog returns to you; the dog must have instant feedback.

Once the dog is fluent at switching directions in the middle of a chase, try setting up the situation so that it is more like real life. Have someone ride a bike/run/skate past. (It is unrealistic to factor in deer/rabbits however if your training is thorough the dog will eventually be conditioned to return to you whatever the temptation in most contexts).

Until your training gets to this level, don't let the dog off-lead in a situation in which you don't have control over the chase triggers. Don't set the dog up to fail, and don't allow it to rehearse the problem behaviour. Remember, every time a dog is able to practise an undesirable behaviour it will get better at it!

Most people do not play with toys correctly and therefore the dog is not interested in them or, if it gets them, fails to bring it back to the owner.

Play the two ball game, once you have a dog ball crazy. Have two balls the same, throw one to the left, when the dog gets it, call him like crazy waving the next ball; as he comes back throw the other ball to the right and keep going left right so that YOU are the centre of the game and the dog gets conditioned to return to you for the toy. Once this behaviour is established you can then introduce the cues for out and then make control part of the game ie the game is contingent on the dog sitting and then progress to a sequence of behaviours.

HTH

 

[smokeybear]

Ultimate Recall: 4 Day Course with John Rogerson

• Training a reliable, automatic, non-negotiable, reality recall
• Building block and foundation training of the recall
• Relationship/influence building in recall training
• The chasing/emergency recall
• Sit and/or down on recall
• Freeze/stop on recall/running wait
• Distance/direction control
• Calling dogs off of distractions
• Out of sight recall (owner hidden)
• Obedience/competition recall (dog is called from a stationary position)
• Free running recall (dog is called while in motion)
• Type "A" recall (dog re-joins his owner in motion)

JOHN RESERVES THE RIGHT TO ADJUST COURSE CONTENT BASED ON THE ABILITIES OF DOGS AND HANDLERS ENROLLED ON THE COURSE.

Dates for Ultimate Recall Course:

At Nottingham, England
26th - 29th October, 2012; 4 days duration 9.30-4.00 pm
To register contact Beverly Smith at [email protected]

http://www.johnrogerson.com/2012coursesschedule.pdf

Chase Recall Masterclass

Date: Thursday 1st November 2012 Venue: Windsor, Berkshire Max handler places: 10
9.30am registration, 10.00am - 4pm Refreshments and a light lunch included

Following on from the fabulous Chase Recall Masterclass with Stella Bagshaw earlier this month, we are pleased to announce a date for the Chase Recall Practical Masterclass.

In this Masterclass we will be exploring:
How to tailor your training depending on your dog's scorpion level
How to build your training based on practical, workable exercises
How to move from one training level to the next in the real world
Perfecting the advanced "leave"
How, when and what signals to use
Line handling skills that make all the difference
Getting scent to work for you
Games to play with your dog on line
Dogs attending do not need to have a chase/recall issue, but it's a perfect opportunity if they do! Dogs do need
to be social with people and other dogs.

Please be assured that even if you don't bring a dog you will learn just as much from Stella's unique and innovative training approaches. Please note, the venue has a large hall and outside areas - we will be training in both, so please bring suitable outdoor wear.

Non handler place @ £130 (deposit £65)
Handler @ £145 (deposit £65)

http://www.apdt.co.uk/documents/Chas...calNov2012.pdf

Books

Stop! How to control predatory Chasing in Dogs
by David Ryan

Chase! Managing Your Dog's Predatory Instincts
By Clarissa Von Reinhardt

Total Recall
By Pippa Mattinson

Teach your Dog to Come When Called
By Erica Peachey

DVDs

Really Reliable Recall
by Leslie Nelson

Training the Recall
By Michael Ellis

Your clever dog: Getting your dog to come when called
by Sarah Whitehead

Does your dog whizz back to you as soon as you call his name?
Can you call him to you even when there are other dogs or distractions? Teaching your dog to come to you when you call is the cornerstone of training and the gateway to allowing him more freedom in the park.
If your dog has selective deafness, ignores you in the garden or the park, or would rather play with other dogs than come when you call, this specially designed training session is for you.
Ideal for starting out with puppies or rehomed dogs, and also for dogs that ignore you or are slow to come when called, despite previous training.
Including:
• How to know what's rewarding for your dog and what's not
• Five times when you shouldn't call your dog!
• Using your voice to call versus using a whistle
• What to do if you call and your dog doesn't come to you
The pack contains: A clicker, long line (worth £10), training manual, instructional DVD: 55 mins approx running time including Bonus trick, Bonus Training Session, Intro to Clicker Training, Q & A with Sarah

Website articles:

http://www.apdt.co.uk/documents/RECALL.pdf

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/reliable_recall.pdf

Deposits into the Perfect Recall Account

List of Reinforcers

Distractions For Your Recall

Recall Collapse | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog

How to Create a Motivating Toy

http://www.cleverdogcompany.com/tl_files/factsheets/Training a whistle recall.pdf

Teaching Come « Ahimsa Dog Blog

How do I stop my dog chasing?

http://www.pawsitivelydogs.co.uk/recall.pdf

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/come-at-the-park

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/teaching_rover_to_race_to_you_on_cue

Become More Exciting Than a Squirrel: Teaching a Reliable Come When Called | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

 

[GermanShepardOwner]

My dog is a neutered male labrador, rescued from the pound when he was about 18mths, april last year. He was very difficult when I got him- he had been neglected (I suspect that's why he's so overly friendly with everyone, he loves attention) and hadn't had any training. He is very very energetic- I would say hyper but then I'd probably get lectured on how he's normal, and I obviously don't walk him enough. People at the park have commented on how extreme his energy seems to be, so I'm sure I'm not imagining it. And we do a lot of exercise every day, twice a day. But still, when we go to the park, he seems to be so excited that he forgets everything he did so well at training (even though training had lots of other dogs there)

Do you know if he is from working or show lines? Working lines are alot harder to wear out and are constantly on the go. Labs are very high energy, just walking and running around will not wear them out, they need menta games too.

Anyway... he's improved a lot since then but one thing that makes me stressed and embarrassed is whenever I go to the park, he'll follow me around off leash fine until he sees another dog, or worse, a car pulling into the carpark, and then (this can vary) sometimes he'll just gallop towards the thing he sees and no matter how hard I yell or scream (and yes, he does this when I have food on me and when I run in the opposite direction, or when I roll around on the ground or blow a whistle or shake a bag of treats, and when I fake a seizure while yelling his name). Are there any other ways of getting a dog to come back when they seem to go conveniently deaf when you call them? It distresses me when I cannot control him and I worry he will get attacked by a dog that doesn't appreciate being jumped on by a goofy labrador who comes charging right at them wanting to play.

You have to go back to basics with him, he hasnt learn to stay with you and to not go other to other dogs, people, cars etc. Get a long line, do not let him off lead untill his re-call is perfect. Use a whistle to start with in house, whistle treat and repeat many times. Then move outside etc, with more distractions, use very high value treats. As soon as he hears that whistle he will know what hes going to get. Once he gets the idea then start adding a word etc.

People have suggested I use a long lead, which is good advice and I do do sometimes, particularly at the beach but in terms of the park what I am really looking for is a way to control him off leash because when on leash when he wants to run at a dog he'll a) essentially drag me (he is extremely strong) or b) throw a tantrum and lay down and start whining and barking. Oh... I did used to have a head collar which was useful at times for b). Maybe there are things I can do to work on behaviours a) and b), anyway. Also, he has certain dogs who are happy to play with him at the park off leash so I want him to be able to do this without running off towards older, less playful dogs.

You can not let a dog off lead unless they are trained to come back to you. Start off with the long line and do not let off untill perfect, he does not understand yet. If you see another dog and know hes going to play up then walk the opposite way and ignore his behaviour, if he can not play nicey and obey you then he doesnt get anything. Get a gencon, they are great for full control.

So um... to summarize, what I am wondering is
-What are some ways not previously mentioned to help with recall? I have tried food and he doesn't seem to CARE when there's another dog on the other end of the field.

I would also reccommend a training class, he needs to get the basics done first, he has not been taught to re-call or how to behave around other dogs yet. You need to get him more reliant on you and alot more focused, start in the house then garden then park etc. If the other dogs are more interesting and he feels he can get away with it then he will.

 

[beetle22]

My Lab used to ignore me until I made my myself more exciting to him than other dogs. It takes time and consistency. To begin with get some tasty treats your dog wouldn't normally have and a clicker. Call your dog to you inside the house, click and treat. Do it 30 times as it takes 30 repetitions to make a new behavior stick.

Once your dog is coming to you every time. Add into the come when called, click and treat, toys, balls, frisby and play with him. By practicing indoors with the toys as rewards as well as treats, you are building meaning to them, that is fun fun for your dog. That will keep him interested in you.

On the field, take with you the toys, you, have used that bring him enjoyment, put them in a bag so you can pull the next one out if you see him getting distracted. Keep your eyes on your dog and surrounding dogs at all times so you can interrupt your dog before he has chance to get distracted, meaning you have to be quick to act.

Avoid standing chatting on the park if you do this, keep moving about, watch for other dogs, use a happy tone to get your dogs attention, pull out a toy, say a ball and throw it in the opposite direction to the distraction.

If you work hard indoors, on the recall, you can then do it your garden, then progress to applying the distraction toys outdoors. If you are not consistent you will be setting your dog up for failure. You have to make your dog want to come to you by being more exciting, rewarding than other dogs, use chicken, hot dogs, liver, to start with.

The best toys to buy for labs are stuffed plush ducks that honk as they love the noise. Labs love to sniff everything, so use his nose in play, buy some duck oil and put it on the duck, let your lab sniff it then hide it, say find and reward him when he does.

 

[beetle22]

You could also tie the stuffed duck on to a stick take it to the park, and go round in a circle with it to get your dogs attention as they like fast moving things. Reward him when he catches it. That will lessen his prey drive for other dogs. Only allow your dog the toys, extra tasty treats and stuffed duck when working/playing with him or they will mean nothing.

 

[florafaun]

Do you know if he is from working or show lines? Working lines are alot harder to wear out and are constantly on the go. Labs are very high energy, just walking and running around will not wear them out, they need menta games too.

I would also reccommend a training class, he needs to get the basics done first, he has not been taught to re-call or how to behave around other dogs yet. You need to get him more reliant on you and alot more focused, start in the house then garden then park etc. If the other dogs are more interesting and he feels he can get away with it then he will.

I have no idea what his history is, though it has been suggested he is from show lines because he is on the stockier side of labrador.

We have been to training and he was actually very good at training- did off lead recalls in front of the other dogs.

I think I just need to practice a lot harder with him and like people said... really work on making him come back even with distractions.

Ultimate Recall: 4 Day Course with John Rogerson

Chase Recall Masterclass

Date: Thursday 1st November 2012 Venue: Windsor, Berkshire Max handler places: 10
9.30am registration, 10.00am - 4pm Refreshments and a light lunch included

Non handler place @ £130 (deposit £65)
Handler @ £145 (deposit £65)

http://www.apdt.co.uk/documents/Chas...calNov2012.pdf

These would be good, but I live in New Zealand. :001_unsure:

I think finding a toy he really loves is a good idea.

We have a big backyard so I suppose that can be his off leash area for now.