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Trouble with crate training

Discussion in 'Dog Training and Behaviour' started by Sreach, Jul 30, 2019.


  1. Sreach

    Sreach PetForums Newbie

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    My wife and I just adopted our first dog/pup from a shelter. She's an 11-month-old, 45 lb. Lab mix that was found loose in a field and reported. We have no idea what conditions she started growing up in, but she's super friendly, a big mush and hasn't barked once.

    Being a dog parent is new to both of us. My wife works full time and I'm currently home during the day working on my own stuff and now, working with our girl, Zuri.

    My issue is that after experimenting with 3 different crate styles, we finally found one that she doesn't mind going into, but she doesn't like to stay in it and doesn't like when I close the gate/door. It's an open, wire-frame cage. Since we picked her up last Wednesday, she's been sleeping on "her area" of the couch that we set up and one of us has been sleeping on the couch next to her to monitor.
    When I get her in with a treat or toy, she comes right back out and when I close the gate, she's ok for a short time but then begins to claw and whine after a minute or so. I really think I'm doing something wrong because she considers the couch area as her bed and I want her to "den" in the crate, especially at night.

    I can really use some guidance to break her couch sleeping habit and get her to enjoy going into her crate. Sleeping.jpg
     
  2. Burrowzig

    Burrowzig PetForums VIP

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    Make more positive associations with the crate; put treats in it for her to find, perhaps cover it over or put it under a table so it's more den-like. But most important, don't try shutting the door until she's spending quite a bit of time in it of her own choice - make it really comfortable. Either that, or if she starts clawing at the wire, let her out AT ONCE so she knows it's not a prison. You've only had her such a short time, she will be on edge and not sure what to expect from you, and may have had previous bad experiences with crates. Give it time.
    Is there a problem with her being on the sofa?
     
  3. Lurcherlad

    Lurcherlad PetForums VIP

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    Tbh I’d let her settle and get used to her new environment without any dramas (which the crate is creating). It’s been less than a week so very early days.

    She must be feeling quite confused and anxious at all the changes so helping her to feel safe and happy in the early days will help more than hinder imo.

    Once she’s settled in you can gradually get her to sleep elsewhere though she’ll naturally become more confident and independent.

    Crate training takes quite a while if done correctly and starting with literally a few seconds and releasing her before she gets anxious will teach her it’s not a negative experience.

    Maybe she has bad memories of a crate from her past too?
     
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  4. Sreach

    Sreach PetForums Newbie

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    Won't opening it immediately when she's whining or clawing tell her that if she does that she gets out? That's been one of the only really consistent things I've heard from multiple sources. There's no problem with her resting on the couch, but I want her to know the crate is hers and it's where she goes to sleep at night, or play...just not a place where she goes for a treat. Maybe put a blanket over it for more of a den feel, like you said. I've done treats and have been putting her toys in there, she goes in to get them and comes back out. If she's chewing on the Kong toy and I close the door, she's usually too occupied to notice, until she does and it's usually a matter of a few minutes before she begins whining or pawing at the gate, sometimes biting at the gate.

    I've been giving her more and more time in the crate while closed, I think it may be down to extending the time and trying to time it so I open it before she whines. Gradually increasing the time in there.
     
  5. Sreach

    Sreach PetForums Newbie

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    It's possible that she has negative emotion attached, like I said, we don't know how she was trained for the first 11 months of her life. We got her after about 3 days at the shelter. I'm doing my best at making her comfortable in the crate, but my wife and I need to sleep in our bed and she needs to sleep in her crate. Yes, it' a new environment for her and I think she's getting more used to it, she doesn't act so nervous and scared anymore, thankfully.
    Our vet said today that we need to use a little tough-love and keep her in the crate overnight, she should be sleeping in there. We need to break the habit of sleeping on the couch overnight, at least until she's properly trained to not chew on furniture or tv remotes (already put a couple of tooth holes in my volume control for the sound bar). Make sure she's housebroken fully, things like that...plus we're trying to introduce our old cat to her. Zuri seems fine to the cat, but the cat isn't so welcoming, so we have a babygate to keep the cat in the bedroom/bathroom area while we work on them together....of course, that's a whole other situation.
     
  6. JoanneF

    JoanneF PetForums VIP

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    You don't want her to get to the stage she feels anxious and whines.
    Step By Step Guide to A Distress Free, Force Free Crate Trained Dog or Pup by Emma Judson

    The following guide is a big read but well worth it.
    Written by Emma Judson of the Canine Consultants, for the Dog Training Advice and Support page on Facebook and shared with their permission.


    Please sit and read this guide thoroughly before making a start, as it is important that every single step of this is carried out and nothing is skipped.
    It is also important to understand, before you start, why it is important to crate train your dog.
    Crates are often seen as a place to lock a naughty dog, or a place where dogs are left shut away for long hours, and it is true, they can be misused just like any other item of dog related equipment.
    However, properly trained your dog can find being crated reassuring and a visual cue to relax and go to sleep.
    Crates can be used to aid in toilet training, dealing with fear or reactivity, introducing new dogs, in rehabilitation from illness or injury. Crates are commonly used in transporting dogs, in groomers and of course, in a veterinary surgery or hospital.
    Unless you can guarantee that your dog is never going to travel, be groomed, go to the vets, require strict and confined rest - something you can only do if you can see the future - then your dog needs to know how to handle being crated!
    CRATE TRAINING WILL NEVER INVOLVE YOUR DOG BEING SHUT IN AGAINST HIS WILL, THERE WILL BE NO CRYING OR WHINING OR SCRABBLING OR BARKING IN AN ATTEMPT TO GET OUT OF THE CRATE - IF THERE ARE ANY OF THE ABOVE SIGNS, YOU ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE INSTRUCTIONS CORRECTLY.
    You will need: 1 Wire crate appropriately sized for your dog with a bed or blanket inside - if you have a large breed puppy who is currently tiny, a small crate is ok for training purposes as long as its big enough for your dog right now. 1 pot of very high value treats - try cheese, hot dog, chicken, whatever your dog likes best 1 food dispensing toy such as a Kong or similar
    Step 1: Crate = Treats
    Sit beside the open doorway of the crate - you want the door to be wide open as far as it will go and ideally you sit to the other side, so you are sat beside the edge of the crate where the door would latch shut. Have your pot of treats with you and of course, your dog or puppy.
    Show your dog the treats if necessary, and then toss into the crate, one treat.
    Your dog should follow the treat into the crate to eat it.
    At this point, IF you have a dog or pup who has never seen a crate before OR who has and is generally ok with the idea, they will go straight in.
    If you have a dog or pup who has already been terrified of a crate or is generally nervous, they may not go straight in. If this is the case, put the treat right by the door and start with just rewarding them for approaching the crate.
    It is really important to note, your dog or pup CAN come straight out of the crate once they have eaten the treat - it is entirely THEIR choice.
    The rule is super simple. Going in the crate earns a treat. Not going in the crate, or coming out of the crate, earns no treat.
    Even the daftest of dogs can work out the very simple maths here - in crate = goodies. Out of crate = 0 goodies.
    Play the 'treats are in the crate' game for a few minutes - if you only get a pup zooming in and out of the crate happily for treats, that is fine at this stage. If you get a pup or adult dog who goes in and hovers to see if more treats will happen without them having to come out and go in again, reward that, put more treats in BEFORE your dog comes out again.
    Ideally we want the dog to hang around inside the crate, hoping for more treats - if he does that, he has chosen to be in there, of his own free will! So reward that, keep tossing in treats and praising your dog - but don't be tempted to shut that door yet!
    Step 2: Crate = More Treats
    Hopefully your dog was starting to think by the end of the first session or two, that hanging around in the crate might be an easy way to earn more treats.
    If he isn't, carry on with step one!
    For step two, sit slightly to the side of the crate and when he goes in for his first treat, start popping a treat or two through the bars (this is why we are using a wire crate and not a fabric one!).
    Your dog is probably still going in the crate and remaining standing, so now I would put in two or three treats, further back into the crate and see if he lies down to eat them. If he DOES, reward that with a small handful through the bars, ideally delivered so that he doesn't have to get up to reach them - lots of praise for this!
    When he is going in and lying down and clearly expecting treats to be delivered you can begin to pause for just a fraction of a second before doing so - this is the beginning of building up the time he stays in the crate for.
    Again, remember, keep AWAY from that crate door, forget it even exists for the time being!
    Step 3: Moving Around - you, not him.
    By now your dog should be zooming into the crate and lying down and he probably won't need bribing in there with a treat, but he will still need treats for going in and staying in there.
    Vary the length of time he waits for his treat, so lots of times he gets the treats almost straight away, sometimes he waits for a few seconds or even up to 1 minute.
    When you are at that level, you can begin to shift your position whilst he is inside the crate. This means you can shuffle further away, or to the side to begin with, then shuffle back and reward him for having done nothing! (The reality is of course he has done a great thing, he's chosen to stay in the crate despite you moving!)
    Remember to move only a tiny bit, and move in whichever direction or fashion is LEAST likely to encourage him to move, hence shuffling rather than standing up at this stage. It's also important to remember to keep the time you spend 'away' very brief, so you may even need to just lean your body away, then back, then reward, before shuffling away.. then edging away...
    Step 4: Find your Feet
    You are ready for this stage if you can lean and shuffle or edge away from your dog in the crate, in a variety of directions, for a minimum of 30 seconds and ideally a max of around 2 minutes, before returning and rewarding him.
    Watch your dog carefully now, does he look relaxed and comfortable or does he look like he's ready to spring up and out of the crate? You want relaxed and comfortable so if he is looking anxious and ready to spring up and out, go back a bit, reduce the times you are 'away' by a few feet, increase the reward too so that it's more fun for him.
    It is really important not to skip this stage or rush it, because now you are going to be standing up instead of sitting by the crate and initially, you want to start out sitting and stand whilst he is in there.
    Wait until he is relaxed in the crate, stand up slowly and drop in a few treats by bending over. Then squat back down or kneel back down (you can sit if it's easy for you to jump up and down from sitting!)
    For this stage you are JUST going to be working on kneeling/squatting near the cage and then standing up and rewarding, and back down again. Do not step away from the crate at this point.
    Mix it up with work from the earlier steps, so sometimes sit and reward for him staying, sometimes sit and lean away, or sit and bum-shuffle away and back and reward.

    It is important that going in the crate does not become an accurate predictor or visual cue that tells your dog 'THE PERSON WILL BE LEAVING NOW' because if your dog has an issue with being left, this will be a big problem. Mix up the work so that sometimes the reward is for a really easy thing, sometimes it's a little harder - resist the trap of making his task harder and harder every single time because that leads to dogs predicting, and becoming sour to the lesson you are teaching.
    Step 5 - Stepping Away
    NOW you should have a dog who really could not give a damn if you are sat there, sat a foot away, bum shuffling around, leaning in and out, standing up, squatting down - all he knows is, he's in the crate and he gets treats for stopping in there, and that's GOOD!
    You should start to find that if your crate is somewhere available most of the time and open for him to go in, he is starting to choose to go in there even when it isn't a training session. If that is the case, randomly reward him for that, just walk by and drop a tasty morsel in to him, you could also offer him his meals or treat filled kongs in there now.
    The next step is to ask him to go in the crate and then stand up and step away, just one step, and then back and reward. Build that up over the course of several sessions until you can take several steps away, pause, return and reward and he does not bat an eyelid.
    REALLY resist the urge to shut him in there now - there's a high chance you'd get away with it at this stage but you could easily cause a problem if he panics, and the last thing we want is him learning that he CAN'T get out, that would make him fear the crate.
    Step 6 - Going Away
    You should not be starting this step until your dog or pup is belting into the crate, lying down, falling asleep in there, happy to eat meals or treats in there, offering you 'I'm in my crate' behaviours and is actually sometimes found in the crate when you were out of the room.
    So now for your training session you will start with your dog in the crate, reward him, step away, step back, reward him, walk around the crate, reward him, and step outside the door (ideally an internal door) or otherwise pop out of sight for just a split second, then back without much in the way of fuss and reward him.
    Repeat this and mix it up again, as we did before, so that going in the crate does not necessarily mean you will be leaving the room or going out of sight.
    Keep working on this stage until you can leave the room for a few minutes, you could leave and go to another floor of your house, or you could leave the room AND leave the house, all for a few minutes, and then return and your dog hasn't moved out of the crate.
    You may need to set up your crate in another room or use a phone or webcam to record him.
    IF at all possible, practice some of the earlier stages in other rooms in your home - this isn't always possible because not every home has room for a crate and space for you to work around it, in every room but if you CAN, it will really help your dog generalise that the crate is cool no matter where it is. When doing this, the golden rule is to step back down a level or two so that the work is a little easier, to compensate for the new location making things a little harder.
    At this point if you come back and your dog is NOT in the crate, I would say nothing or if you can't resist, I'd go to the empty crate and go to put a treat in there and then act silly 'OH THERE IS NO DOG HERE OH DEAR' and pocket the treat - this VERY much depends on your dog, some of my dogs would be 'OMG I SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THERE... DOH! and some wouldn't give a rats, but there are dogs who might be upset by this behaviour so if that's the case, don't do this.
    Whatever sort of dog you have though, if you come in and the dog is not in the crate, then it's likely you have gone too fast and tried to be out too long, or too far away - so the IMPORTANT thing here is, you make a note of that, go back a step or two and work a bit more on an earlier level. it is not the end of the world if this happens, no one died, so don't get upset and certainly, do not get angry.

    Step 7 - CLOSING THE DOOR...
    OMG yes really!
    So, now you should have a dog who loves his crate, wants to be in his crate, stays in his crate whilst you move around the home, hoping for his reward.
    Now you will go ALLLLLL the way back down to step one, but you will push the crate door closed gently. You will be sat by the crate again as you were at the beginning, putting treats through the bars of the crate.
    Here's the really important part - the split second your dog approaches the door, reaches out to nudge it or paw it or push it... you fling that door open FAST - YOU do that, you do NOT at any stage, ever, wait for your dog to try to get the door open themselves.
    So let's say your dog approached the crate door and you flung it wide open for him - he has probably come out and looked at you like 'what?'.
    Say nothing, just give your dog a second or two and see if HE offers 'going in the crate' - if he does reward him, if he doesn't within a second or two then toss a treat in the crate and start again.
    What your dog is learning here is that he is NEVER EVER trapped in the crate, even if it looks like he is, you are opening the door and releasing him before he FEELS trapped - but there is no reward for coming out.
    Long term your dog won't care if the door is open or closed, because being in the crate has always been rewarding eventually, coming out has never been an issue and isn't rewarding.
    If a dog IS ever trapped in a crate two things happen - firstly, they feel fear, and they distrust the crate, but secondly, when they get out, coming OUT has then been extremely rewarding - because the relief from feeling trapped in there is massively reinforcing.
    By never allowing your dog to feel trapped, you also never allow him to feel that relief!
    Gradually re-work your way through all the steps with the door pushed closed - but really importantly at this point NOT LATCHED SHUT...
    You will need to stay near enough the crate that you can flip the door open fast, and work steadily enough that you are sure your dog won't try to get out before you are ready to release him.
    Step 8 - locking the door
    So to recap, by now you should have a dog who will stay in the crate with the door open or the door pushed closed, whether you are in the room or you have popped in and out, or stepped out for a few minutes.
    He should be really relaxed in there and want to remain in there for the rewards you will still be giving him, and he should be used to some period of waiting before those rewards happen.
    He should never have attempted to get out of the crate by pushing, nudging or pawing at the door.
    If your dog HAS done that, don't panic, go back a few stages and re-do the foundations again and go a little slower. If you are keeping a diary of your progress you may be able to pinpoint where you rushed something or where something went a bit wrong.
    So to introduce the door being locked, again go back a few steps, probably to stepping away and stepping in and out of the room. This time, after a few goes with the door pushed shut, lock it, wait a few seconds without moving, and then unlock it, and carry on the session.
    I would NOT end a session immediately after opening the crate door, instead put a few instances of locking the door in the middle of a session with the door closed and mix in the door being open a few times - this means he is not predicting the door being unlocked and opened as either a release cue or cue for his reward and end of session.
    Step 9 - Increasing the time he can be crated..
    By now you should have a dog who is totally happy to go in his crate, have the door pushed shut, randomly earn rewards in there, have the door locked whilst you move around the room, step outside the room and even the house, for up to around 4 or 5 minutes.
    Now you build duration for real, leaving him slightly longer sometimes - again try not to do this as a neat linear progression, do not leave him for 5 minutes on day 1 and 10 minutes on day 2 and 15 minutes on day three as the chances are he's going to predict that the crate now means being left and that's not fun for him.
    Instead, mix things up - so maybe he's in there for 5 minutes on day one, but on day 2 you just potter around in the same room as the crate. Maybe on day 3 he's in there for 10 minutes but you are in and out of the house (unloading shopping perhaps), on day 4 you only do 5 minutes but you are sitting reading a magazine and mostly ignoring him.
    The point is, it's gradual, but it's no big deal for him, it's not a predictor for something awful.
    Because he has never felt trapped, because he's never felt any reinforcing relief at being released from the crate, it is not a huge deal being in the crate and the fact he CAN'T come out, at this point is totally irrelevant to him, because he does not WANT to come out in the first place!
    Beyond step 9
    It is a good idea if you have a crate and will use it regularly, to keep rewarding your dog for being in there even after he seems totally comfy about it. It's also a good idea to pop him in there for a minute or two when you answer the door, or when a guest comes in, or to give him a tasty bone - just so that he feels it's a great place to be, and doesn't mean you are going out.
    If you don't have a crate set up all the time, do be sure to get your crate out from time to time and practise with it, that way it is not a shock to him when a non-doggy visitor comes to stay and you need to use it, or when he has to go to the vets or you are going to take him on holiday and need to use it there.
    Never use your crate as a place to shut a dog as punishment - it must stay a safe and rewarding place and he must LIKE being in there. It should go without saying do not abuse your dog's good nature and shut him in there for more than 4 hours at a time (And it will take you some time, months with a puppy) to work up to that length of time anyway!)
    Do not allow anyone to tease or torment your dog when he is in the crate - we want to avoid him feeling trapped and a sure fire way to create problems is to allow someone or another animal, to tease your dog whilst crated.
    This all may seem a very long winded way of crating your dog, it's likely you are thinking 'but i could just shut him in there and he might cry but eventually he will get used to it.'
    Some dogs will get over it, and some just suffer in distress quietly, their stress showing up in seemingly unrelated behaviours. Some dogs very obviously don't get over it and will wreck crates and physically hurt themselves, yell their heads off etc.
    A lot of people appear to think a dog screaming and scrabbling to get out of a crate is a dog 'acting out' or a dog who 'needs to get over himself' - that really couldn't be further from the truth - trapping an animal in a small space is incredibly stressful if not outright terrifying. Even if your dog never associates that fear with you, it will have a knock on effect on his ability to learn and settle and generally be a happy, relaxed dog.
    I do disagree that this is actually all that long winded - if you are starting out with a puppy you can get through the first 5 or 6 stages in under a week, the later stages only taking longer because a puppy physically can't be left all that long - and frankly if you don't have a couple of weeks to train a puppy, should you really have gotten a puppy?
    It may well take a little longer with an adult dog, but we are talking about 5 to 10 minute sessions to start with, a couple of times a day - it isn't anywhere near the huge undertaking it may seem whilst reading this through.
    Emma Judson - www.canineconsultant.co.uk Copyright Emma Judson 2014
     
  7. Lurcherlad

    Lurcherlad PetForums VIP

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    IMO she needs to sleep where she feels safe and calm ;)

    If that means me sleeping downstairs with her for toileting, etc. then I’d do it for the long term benefit.

    She’s still very new to your home and feeling a bit lost - picked up as a stray with an unknown past.

    I tried putting my rescue in the kitchen the first night but he forced the door open and curled up on the floor next to my bed and we all slept soundly until morning.

    I put his bed there the next night and no drama from then on.

    I was able to hear him stir for toilet breaks etc. and could touch him/speak to him to soothe/settle him if necessary.

    After just a short time he started sleeping downstairs of his own volition on occasion.

    Honestly, I’d be less rigid for now and just concentrate on her being happy. You could create more problems than you’ll solve insisting on the crate now. A baby gate across the kitchen door to confine her to a safe room when left is an option (with the crate open and her bed in it nearby so she isn’t being forced to be in it).

    If you force the crate issue now she may never be happy in it and that could render it untenable.
     
    #7 Lurcherlad, Jul 31, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2019
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  8. Burrowzig

    Burrowzig PetForums VIP

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    No, it will teach her that you understand her messages and respect her feelings. Read the post above by @JoanneF .
    At this stage, anyway, I wouldn't ever shut the door when she's in it.
     
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  9. Sreach

    Sreach PetForums Newbie

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    This is very confusing as the instructions above and some of the suggestions are contradictory to everything else I've heard or have been told.
     
  10. Bugsys grandma

    Bugsys grandma PetForums VIP

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    I would listen to these guys if I were you. They know their stuff!
     
  11. DanWalkersmum

    DanWalkersmum watching the world go by

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    We bought a crate...... it's in the spare room gathering dust. Hated the whole idea anway. But thought it's what we "should" do as responsible owners. We did try but gave up and dog has the freedom of the house, we are happy with that and he seems to be a calm dog, never (except when he was very young of course) had issues with chewing, toilet training, etc. But that's my dog. Do what you feel you can live with and if that means no crate, confining him to one room with a gate or the run of the house eventually, don't think you have to crate him. Just my thoughts on it sorry if it doesn't help. ;)
     
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  12. JoanneF

    JoanneF PetForums VIP

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    I obviously don't know what you have been told but if I took a guess, it might be to leave the dog to cry it out. If so, that's quite old fashioned advice and the dogs that stop crying often do so because they have given up, not because they suddenly realise it's ok. It's an extreme comparison but in trauma victims it's the silent ones that are the most damaged. And, I might also guess that what you were previously told hasn't worked - that's why you have asked here - would any of that be accurate?
     
  13. Sreach

    Sreach PetForums Newbie

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    So If I'm not even supposed to shut the door at this point, how are my wife and I supposed to go to sleep at night if she's out, sleeping on the couch?
     
  14. Lurcherlad

    Lurcherlad PetForums VIP

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    One of you sleeps downstairs with her.
     
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  15. Sreach

    Sreach PetForums Newbie

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    I'm glad that worked for you, but ours will still have accidents if not monitored and will probably chew on things around the apt if left unattended, plus we have a cat that we're working on getting them to live together. The cat has been behind a baby gate in the bedroom while we work with the pup. A crate is supposed to be a safe place for them to go and relax and sleep.
     
  16. Sreach

    Sreach PetForums Newbie

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    One of us has been, against instructions we've gotten. When we leave her in the living room and go to the bedroom, she cries and whines. We're in a 1 bedroom apt, so the bedroom is in eyeshot of her. Plus we can't continue to take turns sleeping on the couch forever.
     
  17. JoanneF

    JoanneF PetForums VIP

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    It doesn't have to be forever - just until her anxiety reduces. It won't make her more clingy, rather your being there will reassure her and build your bond with her, and that reassurance will help her become more confident; not less.
     
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  18. lullabydream

    lullabydream PetForums VIP

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    It won't be forever, maybe a few weeks, couple of months if you offering reassurance not just at this time but in all aspects of his life. He should slowly settle with good tipS and tricks you have been given. Honestly for a happy healthy lifetime of a dog a short while on the sofa is really nothing in the big scheme of things
     
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  19. DanWalkersmum

    DanWalkersmum watching the world go by

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    I didn't actually say he was left unattended, he isn't,if we go out, he goes out too, probably why we haven't had chewing/toileting problems. I can see both would be an issue if you had to leave your dog unattened for a while, and I know most people do. Sorry my input hasn't helped with your crate issue - good luck resolving it. :(
     
    Lurcherlad likes this.
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