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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Do you think that a lot of people get too wrapped up in the science/theory/statistics/techniques and forget about the individual that is the dog?

There seems to be so many screwed up dogs around, it makes me wonder if it's the way the "newer" dog owners are being made to feel guilty for just owning and having fun with their dog :)
 

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Definately, my aunt has been to so many different trainers/classes to train her dog...but she never just stops and see's what does and doesn't work for her dog, she's done everything from positive reinforcement to CM stuff(her current fad) and she still has a dog that can't walk onlead, is aggressive towards her children, is rude to other dogs, has poor recall and steals food.

I mix and match different training types to suit my dogs, Dan is very easy to train so positive reinforcement works for him but Tummel is very stubborn and independant so i've had to mix a lot of training ideas together for him, both my dogs are mostly well behaved with few real issues(Tummel being DR is the biggest worry but we're working on it).

Of course i got the whole "you're younger than me so you don't know about dogs" from my aunt when i tried to offer training advice to her in the summer, can't win in this family :p
 

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I've mused on this too. I think sometimes we do overthink things. I know a lot of perfectly fine dogs whose owners aren't really into training them, accidentally socialised them very well (due to going to the pub a lot etc) whereas Kes who I've put a lot of work into so far does have problems. Perhaps some other owners just dont' see the faults in their dogs, I'm not sure, but I know that many dogs brought up 'traditionally' have no issues, which if you studeid the science you would think they should do. Hard one really.

My OH's last dog (a staff) was trained on a choke chain (although only once or twice as it didn't sit right with him even at that time when it was acceptable), didn't walk on lead round roads etc. and was apparently very well behaved and attentive, whereas we do everything positively with Kes and have never even poked her to do something and she's a bit of a tearaway. :lol:
 

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yes yes yes!!

I walk a few pooches with 'issues', whose owners only ever see those issues, and work to resolve them....when nothing seems to work and surely it would be better to see the good and cover up/ignore the bad??

So for example - my old terrier is a sod pot and he will bark at small children when off lead. I have tried socialising him, but to be honest its all too stressful! Its not really that big a deal to be getting all het up about. I make sure he is leaded up when we see children and make sure I enjoy something else of his personality!

This suits us both far better than turning every walk into a training session that is fraught with stress and worry!
 

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I've wondered about this too (just wasn't brave enough to bring it up), my Mum had a lot of dogs when she was younger and would always tell me about them, they were social, well behaved and adaptable. When I tell her about a training method or training aid I can just see that she's thinking "what ever happened to common sense", she clearly thinks it's all a bit OTT but what isn't nowadays.
 

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This isn't my experience at all

The owners I know expect good behaviour from their dog, but all dogs have issues, and all the dogs I know get spoilt (in the good way) :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I've managed to work two Goldies, the first one something special :thumbsup: and still kept the, we are best buddies above everything else :)
 

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Do you think that a lot of people get too wrapped up in the science/theory/statistics/techniques and forget about the individual that is the dog?

There seems to be so many screwed up dogs around, it makes me wonder if it's the way the "newer" dog owners are being made to feel guilty for just owning and having fun with their dog :)
I always do what works with my dogs. I think common sense on top of knowing HOW dogs work, what makes them tick is better.
 

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Do you think that a lot of people get too wrapped up in the science/theory/statistics/techniques and forget about the individual that is the dog?

There seems to be so many screwed up dogs around, it makes me wonder if it's the way the "newer" dog owners are being made to feel guilty for just owning and having fun with their dog :)
Definitely. I have always brought my dogs up just the same as my kids really. They are my friends and tend to do things because they are my friends. I think it is the same with children, though. We didn't have yobs and vandals before we had parenting classes!

What do you mean, all dogs have issues? :confused:
Mine don't!
 

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What do you mean, all dogs have issues? :confused:
I haven't met a dog who doesn't have at least 1 quirk: like they have to be fed at 4pm on the dot or they cry, or they pull on walks, or they don't like to be left home alone, or the stare at you the whole time you're eating....they're not always big issues but all dogs have them.

All the dogs I know are loved to pieces and they owners aren't trying to train out every little quirk. We don't want robot dogs.
 

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I think it comes down to people trying to convince people "only the experts" can know it which boils down to trying to justify why you need to spend money for them. Experts can only justify it with certificates based on the "science". Common sense often goes out the window but if you investigate the "science" the common sense can often be found to back up any "arguments" you may have with the experts ;)

However not all science is bad. How do you tell if someone is "qualified" if you cannot solve problems?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
They are just characteristics not issues :(
I'm not just on about training :confused: :confused:

There's the breeding issues the conformation issues etc etc
 

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I think it comes down to people trying to convince people "only the experts" can know it which boils down to trying to justify why you need to spend money for them. Experts can only justify it with certificates based on the "science".

However not all science is bad. Common sense often goes out the window but if you investigate the "science" the common sense can often be found to back up any "arguments" you may have with the experts ;)
What constitutes 'common sense' changes over time though, so who knows where we'll be in 30 years? Barbara Woodhouse was fairly respected in her day, and it seemed to be common sense to jerk yuor dogs lead or to hit it for being bad (just like hitting children was common sense at one point too).
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
What constitutes 'common sense' changes over time though, so who knows where we'll be in 30 years? Barbara Woodhouse was fairly respected in her day, and it seemed to be common sense to jerk yuor dogs lead or to hit it for being bad (just like hitting children was common sense at one point too).
Sometimes just sometimes a dog or child could do with a bloody good smack ;)
 

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What constitutes 'common sense' changes over time though, so who knows where we'll be in 30 years? Barbara Woodhouse was fairly respected in her day, and it seemed to be common sense to jerk yuor dogs lead or to hit it for being bad (just like hitting children was common sense at one point too).
And "science" evolves to match current thinking all the time, often depending on who is paying for it. :p
 

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They are just characteristics not issues :(
I'm not just on about training :confused: :confused:

There's the breeding issues the conformation issues etc etc
Well whatever you want to call them

Some people train their dogs to go in their crate during dinner time because they don't like the begging / staring. Some don't bother and just let their dog stare.

I wouldn't call it a big issue, but it is a behaviour that some try to train out of their dogs, and some don't.

However most of the people I actually meet and know don't bother with these little quirks/issues/behaviours. They just live with them, laugh about them, and enjoy their dogs.

So the science and training being overdone isn't my experience is all I was adding.
 

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Sometimes just sometimes a dog or child could do with a bloody good smack ;)
I can't conceive of a scenario where I would hit Kes, want to sure, but actually do it or be warranted to do it I don't think so. At the end of the day when I feel like giving her a smack it's usually 90% my fault so I can't take it out on her really.

Now kids on the other hand.....I do think they do benefit from a smack. :lol:
 
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I've managed to work two Goldies, the first one something special :thumbsup: and still kept the, we are best buddies above everything else :)
But how does “science” keep you from being best buds with your dog? :confused:

Now, don’t get me wrong, as much of a behavioral science nerd that I am, I agree that its not necessary in the least for your average Joe dog owner to know if something is R+ or R- in order to get their dog trained to walk nicely on a leash, not eat the cute yorkie, and not jump on sweet, elderly Aunt Ethel.

However, I don’t see science as a bad guy. There is nothing wrong with seeking to understand why something works and if there is a better way. Which is how I view science. Its simply the desire to understand what we tend to take for granted.

I love this quote from Sophia Yin about the science of dog training (bolded mine):

"What’s the difference between craft and science? According to Bailey, “Crafts generally develop over thousands of years and tend to preserve what’s old and what has been done before. Information is passed down in secret from master to apprentice, and the apprentice must never question the master.” As a result, when errors are introduced, they tend to be preserved. Another characteristic of a craft is that a change is usually designed only to solve an immediate problem. “Rarely do they look for general principles,” says Bailey.

Science, on the other hand, is a systematic way of asking questions, a process that eventually weeds out mistakes. It’s guided by principles and data, and researcher’s approaches change and are revised as new information comes to light. As a result, science advances quickly compared to craft.

Bailey backs up his description with an example: “For 1,000 years, the Chinese used gunpowder to build small rockets. Then the Turks decided to build bigger ones, which they used on the British. It took them 800 years to develop the technology.” Then, in the 1900s, science and technology stepped in. In 1926, American rocket pioneer Robert Goddard launched the first liquid- propellant rocket. In 1949, less than 25 years later, the U.S. sent a rocket to the moon.

“So it took 800 years of craft to send a six-foot rocket half a mile and less than 50 years of science to send a rocket to the moon"
 
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