Welcome!

Welcome to PetForums, the UK's most popular and friendly pet owners community. Please 'Sign Up' if you'd like to take part and contribute to our forum.

Sign Up

The Puppy Buyers responsibilities?

Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by swarthy, May 29, 2010.


  1. Cuddlecat

    Cuddlecat PetForums Junior

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2010
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    0
    We are thinking about getting a puppy. Have been doing a bit of research. We are looking at a Staffie - terrible rep I know, but we want a medium sized dog that will be a good family pet.

    I have seen a couple of ads where the females are less money. Can I ask why this is a no-no please?

    There is a massive price difference - £900 at most, £175 the least. We aren't too bothered about breeding, just want to ensure it has had this eye test done.
     
  2. dexter

    dexter PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Messages:
    6,255
    Likes Received:
    106
    HAVE A LOOK ON THE kc LIST OF accredited breeders for the breed , some breeders charge more for bitches, i have no idea why. good luck in your quest.
     
  3. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2010
    Messages:
    5,742
    Likes Received:
    280
    it is nothing to do with breeding - in fact, it is fair to say that the right health tests are even more important for pet owners - surely everyone wants to maximise the potential of having a healthy dog and minimise the risk of a dog developing severe health problems?

    The mandatory tests for ABS members are

    1) Annual eye testing
    2) DNA test - HC-HSF4
    3) DNA test L2-HGA

    Recommended, is that litters should be eye screened for PHPV

    It is also work reading this page and the related links

    The Staffordshire Bull Terrier Club - The Parent Club

    ETA - there is also currently a petition calling for mandatory health-testing for all staffies being bred

    http://www.gopetition.co.uk/petition/34001.html
     
  4. 79daisy

    79daisy PetForums Newbie

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Glad to see that someone is saying it is also the buyers responsibilities,I have just had a litter of yorkshire terrier puppies. Had a buyer of a little girl send me a letter after buying the pup and veiwing it twice say that they took pup to vets and it a female pseudohermaphrodite and because I stated they were vet checked then I knowly sold this pup that way, pups were vet checked at 5 days old and was told by vet healthy pups ect. The buyer is now shouting "sale of goods act" to me , which states she should have a refund if faulty which I'm happy to do but she goes on to say, she would like to keep the pup but wants money back she paid for it and vet bill so they have something in hand to go on with. I'm happy to refund money if she would like to bring puppy back. New to this site has anyone else had simliar problem ? Many thanks.
     
  5. leashedForLife

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2009
    Messages:
    19,309
    Likes Received:
    3,660
    this is a totally different topic, hun -
    :eek: i'd suggest start a new thread, asking OTHER BREEDERS for their exp.
     
  6. Nieri

    Nieri PetForums Newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    With consideration to this topic, I would like to ask for some advice in how I am best to obtain a puppy.

    I've always had dogs. In my family home, dogs were around before I was. Living without dogs feels like there is a definite 'something' missing from life. I live with my partner and we are now in the position to get our own dog. We have two cats and five rats, so we thought a puppy or a young dog would be best so that our cats would be more comfortable and so pup would learn early that these were fellow pack members, not play-things.

    We are not concerned about breed, our only stipulation is it would be a medium-larged sized dog as my partner is 6foot 4 and built like a tank. Having a small breed dog would make him feel like he was juggling priceless china plates constantly. We live in a two bedroom apartment on the second floor, and have a communal courtyard (shared by our three neighbours) out the back, and over the back wall there is a massive dog park.

    I mention this detail because this is where we fell down when we went to enquire at the rescue centre. We are not eligible to adopt a puppy because our garden is not 'secure', as no other dogs can access the garden I take it that what they mean is that our garden is not 'private'. Our neighbours are fine with us getting a dog. Secure gardens are not required for older dogs unless something in their temperment suggests they require it - so says staff.

    So this leaves us with the option of going to buy a puppy. Now the issue here is, we prefer cross-breeds - better yet we prefer mongrels and mutts. I understand that this is the breeding section of the forum, and I don't wish to step on anyones toes, but our experience of dogs as a whole is that mutts and mongrels tend to be healthier (fewer genetic nastys hiding in the mix) in a general sense because they are not in-bred. I will state however that I have had pure-bred golden retrievers and border collies, with little problems (bar one of the golden retrievers, who is absolutely clueless and doesn't even know how to pick up a toy, but she is a show breed - I suppose she just got the 'beautiful' genes in that mix :tongue_smilie: ). The draw to a mutt or mongrel is personal preference of ourselves, we were both brought up rurally.

    Now I don't particularly want to go to someone who's just banged to different dogs together and selling to try to make pennies without looking out for the welfare of the pup, nor do I want to buy a flashy breed when that wouldn't be my ideal.

    What I had been looking at is farmers (actual farmers) and rural litters, who have some crosses and mutts available - largely because of the old-fashioned dog-husbandry idea of letting your bitch have one litter before spaying. I have seen some of these places, mum and dad are usually kept by same family or dad lives at the farm down the road. Dogs are healthy and shining, puppies are clean and well-socialised.

    Obviously I would do a quick check of health and temper, check how old they'd be before they left their dam, I'd socialise with mum and dad if possible to check their temperments.

    I understand that these dogs won't have the health checks in their breeding as pure-bred KC registered pups will.

    Is this plan of action so deplorable?
     
  7. leashedForLife

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2009
    Messages:
    19,309
    Likes Received:
    3,660
    - according to Padgett-DVM in "heritable diseases in purebred dogs" [text], EVERY dog of whatever breed
    or mix in the USA carries an average of 5 deleterious genes; that's purebred, crossbred of known breeds,
    or random-bred whatsit found roaming stray - all of them carry an average of 5 'bad genes'.

    - any crossbreed can carry any of the heritable issues found in either parent-breed,
    or can carry any heritable problem common to all dogs [food sensitivities, flea-bite dermatitis...],
    or any random k9-health issue [Cushing's, hypothyroid, elbow or hip problems, PRA...].

    - Ergo, unless the breeder screens for the usual suspects in a breed or the breedS of a crossbreed,
    or screens BOTH parents of a random-bred litter, U won't have any idea what might be lurking.

    Simply assuming that all non-purebred dogs are healthier is a logical error - they may not be inbred,
    or they may be; 2 mutts of opposite sex who look quite dissimilar could even be full siblings. Obviously,
    mating full-siblings or dam/son or sire/daughter, even when the parent is a mixed-breed or random-bred,
    will still greatly increase the risk of doubling a nasty recessive - & some nasties are multigene, such as hips
    & femurs forming a good structure, with moderate angles & a smooth ball-n-socket joint where pelvis & femur
    meet.


    - Multigene outcomes are subject to many other selection pressures, not merely genes -
    pups born of parents who are both rated EXCELLENT for hips can develop DoG-awful hip dysplasia,
    all it takes is slick traction [hardwood or tile, etc], some overfeeding, rapid wt-gain & voila! - Lousy hips
    from great parent-stock. There are many other examples of such multigene expressions.

    - epigenetics is another entire subject: Exposure to triggering events can cause littermates
    to develop problems, or sail thru life happily & healthily without them. Same genes, different
    environmental exposures.


    in short, there are no guarantees that a random-bred or cross-bred pup won't develop health problems,
    structural problems, or have a shortened lifespan.

    One plus:
    DOGS WHO ARE AT LEAST 2-YO when first bred will add an average of 2-yrs to the lifespans of those pups.
    No matter what the breed or mix, delaying breeding till 24-MO will add lifespan. Cheapest & easiest way
    of adding years to a dog's life, that i've heard of - again, courtesy of Dr Padgett, a k9-geneticist. :yesnod:
     
  8. Nieri

    Nieri PetForums Newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    I had no idea that U.S. dogs carry on average 5 bad genes. I assume since I am in the UK, that this figure would be the same or even worse for UK dogs?

    I also understand the danger of two completely different looking dogs being litter mates as you said - especially in those sort of rural communities I was previously looking at.

    However, from what you were saying with regards to two healthy EXCELLENT hip-scored parents having a pup that can have problems, despite the seeming genetic advantage, does that mean that pure-bred well-checked parents can still have a pup with problems?

    So two 'unrelated' dogs of different breeds (or even mongrels), and two dogs of the same breed, providing that basic health checks have been done, have the same chance of having healthy puppies?

    What are the common health checks for the parents of any breed? Is there a set list for all breeds?
     
  9. rocco33

    rocco33 PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2009
    Messages:
    5,442
    Likes Received:
    764
    My main concern would be you wanting a medium large breed, from working lines (which they are likely to be) while living in a second floor flat - not only will space be limited, but that's a lot of stairs that a young dog ill have to go up and down several times a day - not great for their joints. Do you work? If so, what hours?
     
  10. Nieri

    Nieri PetForums Newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    My apologies, I should have been a bit more specific with regards to my situation there, I can understand that this could be a worry.

    I'm actually a student, I have 4-6 hours of scheduled classes a week. In my final year of a BA Hons. My partner works evenings, 4-5 hours a night, and owns his own company. I currently work 4 hours Mon, Tue, Thur and Fri in the evening but the situation we find ourselves in is that I can quit my job to be a full time 'stay-at-home-mum' :001_smile: In the next few years, when I'm looking at maybe a full time job, our hours will be a trade off. Me working nine-to-five ish, him still working the evenings. This arrangement has worked for us before.

    I understand the issue of the stairs, specially with a puppy's soft bones. I've raised puppies in a flat before, the solution being - when they're so small - is to carry them outside at first until they're older and can carry themselves outside. With my bear of a man, and my being used to the 4am puppy-weight lifting session, I don't forsee this being too much of an issue. Our working hours were the main issue before, but this, like I have described above is not going to be an issue anymore.

    When I say medium-large, I'm meaning lab or collie size-weight. I only put 'large' in there, to make sure I covered larger members of these breeds. I understand a high-energy collie may not be ideal, I've had a collie when I was younger in a flat and his energy was managed by flyball and agility. So I would be looking for a medium-energy dog. A low energy dog may not be ideal as we are scout leaders, we hike and camp away regularly and I would like a dog that could keep up.

    Please, do challenge these thoughts, and my previous ideas. If I wasn't a concerned prospective-owner, I wouldn't have came to the site. I won't take any offense to any objections or challenges offered in the spirit of looking out for the well-being of any possible puppy. If I can't offer an acceptable answer to any challenges, I'll have to rethink our decision or our expectations. Previously, my issue was selecting a puppy that was ideal for ourselves as when I've owned dogs in the past, the purchasing of the puppy was made by my parents, although I was present. I want to make the right choice with respect to any future dog, I just felt that the money that was being spent on a pedigree isn't necessarily for health checks and temperment, it's for rarity, colour and a pretty shape and form. I don't really care what the dog looks like, I care for health and temperment. Please, again I hope I'm not offending anyone, like I've said previously I've had pure-bred dogs and they've all been lovely. But the dog I've owned with the sweetest temper, the longest health, and the most intelligence (including my collie who was bright as a button) was a complete Heinz 57, gosh knows what was in her genetic mix - I can only guess there was a wee bit of staffy and some sort of terrier in her somewhere. The second was a lab ret x, his show mummy was caught by a show lab from a couple of miles away that did a mad escape to get to her. Anyway, I digress... please anymore input would be greatly appreciated.
     
  11. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2010
    Messages:
    5,742
    Likes Received:
    280
    Contrary to popular belief - crosses can be just as prone to health problems as their pedigree counterparts - often moreso by the very nature of the people who breed them.

    There are some good breeders of crosses - but at the present time, they are still almost as rare as hens teeth.

    If buying a first generation cross-breed, the recommendations would be exactly the same as for buying a pedigree, both parents should have the recommeded health-tests for their breed.

    Once you go past a first generation cross - then the parents should have ALL health-tests relevant to their crosses - i.e. by bringing two dogs together, the progeny face the risk of all the health problems of their originating breeds - so unless the breeds concerned have identical health problems - you are looking at far greater research and and a larger range of potential health issues moreso if both breeds have a fair number of recessive conditions - as the minute you get past a first generation cross - you potentially have matching genes for these conditions unless both parents have been tested.

    ==========================

    Having said all the above - I personally wouldn't sell a Lab pup to someone living in a 2nd floor apartment particularly if there is no lift.

    My pups aren't allowed to do stairs unless completely unavoidable for the first 12 months and to this effect, I have a stair-gate in place.

    Carrying an 8 week old Lab puppy downstairs would be relatively easy - carrying a 12 week old Lab pup up and down stairs would be hard going - and by 6 months, you are looking at a full size Labrador who may still might not be housetrained.

    Dogs in apartments can work as my boss often reminds me (she lives in a first floor apartment and has a Westie - a dog that even at 9 years old can still be carried up and down stairs if needs be - but even then - pups living in apartments are likely to be more challenging to housetrain than for those living on the ground floor of a house with instant access to a garden.

    Carrying a pup mid wee or poo outside to finish toileting will never be a quick process, therefore probably taking far longer for the pup to make the correct association that toileting indoors is not what you want from them.

    Irrespective of your access to a garden and whether the other tenants agree (and tenants can change) - personally, I would be looking at a much smaller breed than something like a Lab.

    As for height - my friends 6ft 2" football playing / football coach and highly entertaining Scottish husband walks her 2 bichons daily - it certainly hasn't impacted on his masculinity.

    When my 6ft 2" OH was married he had a Westie which he was proud to walk - in fact, it took a lot of convincing him to get him go Labrador size as he wasn't keen on large dogs - but he succumbed and is brilliant with them - but never felt any threat to his masculinity.

    His ex-wife now has a pom and her even taller OH is proud to take it out.
     
    #91 swarthy, Nov 1, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
  12. Brainless

    Brainless PetForums Newbie

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2012
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Excellent original post, nothing much to add, other than banging my head against a brick wall when I offer advice to would be puppy buyers I meet who still buy the first or cheapest puppy.
     
  13. dexter

    dexter PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Messages:
    6,255
    Likes Received:
    106
    we all been there ;)
     
  14. RatsnCatnKids

    RatsnCatnKids PetForums Junior

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have posted elsewhere in threads about advice on finding a puppy. This is the first time we shall have had a dog and are putting a lot of thought into it to ensure it's a positive exoerience for the dog and for us.
    I fully understand the importance of finding a reputable breeder and know that the KC have an 'assured breeder' scheme. However, I have also read that this doesn't necessarily mean these are the only good breeders. I am wondering how you can access other good breeders? I have seen a website called "Champdogs" which appears to list 'proper' breeders.
    Is it just a case of me phoning and 'interviewing' breeders to ensure they follow the guidelines regarding health checks, vet checks, allowing us to visit and see the pups with mum etc or should I just use the assured breeders?
    Another thing I don't really understand is what the KC registration means? We want a dog as a family pet and not for breeding from but still, for reasons mentioned elsewhere, should like a pedigree puppy rather than a rescue dog.
     
  15. nutty

    nutty PetForums Senior

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Messages:
    822
    Likes Received:
    18
    How about a pedigree rescue?
     
  16. RatsnCatnKids

    RatsnCatnKids PetForums Junior

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have been keeping an eye on rescue centres in our region but there don't seem to be many small dogs availabe, apart from Jack Russell terriers and JRT crosses and I don't want a terrier. I'm also concerned that we wouldn't really know the background and, being first time owners, we have no experience. The other thing is that my daughter (now nearly 11, then about 5) was bitten (fortunately just grazed the skin) on the cheek by a dog on a beach once and we are both keen to have a puppy so we can be confident (as far as poss!) that we and it bond well. That's also why training the puppy properly is essential so I shall go to puppy training classes and have already bought the "Perfect Puppy" book so I can read up and be sure I feel we, as a family, can commit to the consistency we need to give the puppy.
     
  17. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2009
    Messages:
    21,576
    Likes Received:
    660
    Any list of breeders will have good and bad, you need to assess how the breeder goes about breeding dogs, and then make your own mind up. Do they health test, do they care about temperament, conformation, ability, how many breeds do they have, how many litters etc? Some people will tell you what you want to hear, but often the evidence is there to tell you that what they're claiming doesn't add up.

    KC registration isn't just so you can breed, it tells you that you have bought a dog from two KC registered parents of the same breed, and that gives you a lot of information about your pup. The KC is simply a registration body, that holds information about the recognised breeds in the UK on their systems, it isn't a guarantee, it's simply data about dogs, which you don't get if you buy one that isn't KC registered, either because the parents aren't, or pups can't be, or it's a cross bred dog, it's impossible in the vast majority of those instances to know where your pup has come from, and trace their ancestry.

    If you approach a breeder with a good list of questions and interview them I'm sure that they would welcome speaking to you, the majority of enquiries are simply about price, availability, sex and colour, in varying orders. There will be the occasional person who believes they are too good to answer questions, but are generally good breeders, but a lot will find it refresing to come across anyone who has done their research well before getting in touch with them.

    Good luck :)
     
  18. leashedForLife

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2009
    Messages:
    19,309
    Likes Received:
    3,660
    What country / city do U live in or near?

    Shelters are not the sole source, there are also breed-specific rescues that are independent NGOs
    [non-profits which are registered].

    Aside from breed-rescue, there is always the option to contact breeders or show-handlers who need to
    retire a young adult, or find a home for an older pup who is not growing-up to fulfill their early promise;
    a less-than-perfect bite, a coat-texture that changes, etc, can mean the dog is not perfect for the show-ring,
    but doesn't affect their potential as a pet. :)

    if we knew where U are, we could make specific recommendations of where to look or whom to see.

    A young dog over 6-MO, preferably 9 to 12-MO & already desexed, is a known quantity, in many ways;
    their temp, behavior, size, coat, color, etc, are already assessable.

    An infant-pup, OTOH, is a package of possibilities - & requires MASSIVE input to be reared properly.
    i would never suggest that folks who have never lived with a dog OF THEIR OWN - not their parents'
    dog when they were children, not a housemate's or girlfriend's / boyfriend's dog, but their own! -
    buy or adopt a puppy, as their first dog. :(

    i know U want a "blank slate" - there is no such thing. Even an 8-WO pup is the sum of their genes,
    their breeder's care, their experiences from birth to 8-WO in that first home, their dam's & sire's temps,
    their DAM's own behavior as a role-model for her pups, & so on.

    i'd recommend a 9-MO or preferably 12-MO dog [or older] who has lived with children, has a nice friendly
    disposition, some basic manners, etc. - from a shelter, from a breed-rescue, or direct from a breeder
    or handler; a retiring show-dog of 18-MO to 3-YO, a breeding dog who's 3 or 4 [or younger], a teen-dog
    who comes into breed-rescue after a divorce or job-loss --- there are many possibilities.

    A puppy is a big project; living with an adult or teen-dog who's past the infant & puberty stage is a better
    option for a novice family or novice owner, IME & IMO. Just because dogs are everywhere doesn't mean that
    they are simple or easy pets; they're not, & rearing them is the hardest part. :eek:
     
  19. luvmydogs

    luvmydogs PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2009
    Messages:
    4,654
    Likes Received:
    157
    Great post - however this thread makes me realise that breeders like me, who do everything ethically, often get overlooked for less ethical breeders who happen to be recognised by the UK Kennel Club. My breed is too rare to be recognised - but that doesn't mean we are not good breeders. Asking and listening to the breeder is SO important.
     
  20. RatsnCatnKids

    RatsnCatnKids PetForums Junior

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is definitely something we would consider as it would mean we knew the dog's "history". What I want to avoid is taking on a stray or abandoned animal with unknown history and possible behavioural issues. We are in Oxfordshire. We won't be in a position to have a dog until after our summer holiday as we obviously wouldn't want to put it in kennels in the first few months.

    Edit to say that we are looking for a coton de tulear or a maltese.
     
    #100 RatsnCatnKids, Apr 10, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice