Welcome to PetForums

Join thousands of other pet owners and pet lovers on the UK's most popular and friendly pet community and discussion forum.

Sign Up

The barf diet

Discussion in 'Dog Health and Nutrition' started by sezeelson, Sep 21, 2013.


  1. sezeelson

    sezeelson PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,236
    Likes Received:
    46
    My pup is nearly 9 weeks so not ready for the raw meaty bones my other two get. She does have raw chicken neck and chicken wing as these are perfect size for her!

    I'm learning from a behaviourist who has also learnt about diet but some of the points she raised about feeding a barf diet (minced meat meals) doesn't sit well with me as I've learnt otherwise. I just don't feel like I'm in a position to fight my corner though as I don't know if what I have learned is 'right'.

    One thing she mentions is that the barf diet causes rot and tooth decay.
    Here is why I disagree:
    Rot and tooth decay is caused by the unnatural substances and sugars contained in commercial pet foods. While I know barf wont clean them so natural wear and tear will take place but I do not believe for a second barf causes decay.

    Secondly, she says that dogs need to practice the action of chewing and crunching in order to get the body ready for food releasing all the enzymes etc.
    here is why I disagree:
    Chewing produces saliva to help break down the food in your mouth ready for swallowing. The brain knows when it's getting a meal triggering the stomach to react accordingly, chewing probably helps this along but is not vital in digesting food?

    Am I right or wrong to disagree with her?

    She also told me not to make homemade meals for pup as I was going to make brown rice just to bulk out her meals and to feed with liver when she doesn't have a bone meal :/ She also told me not to give them probiotic yogurts as it sticks to the teeth causing decay...? This maybe true but I feed them bones which keeps their teeth clean. She wasn't keen when I told her I fed my dogs treats too which I think is odd?

    I'm putting pup on a barf diet so she gets a mixture of meat meals and I'm going to make a big batch of veg from the raw feeding sticky to make sure they are all full of nutritional goodness!
     
    #1 sezeelson, Sep 21, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
  2. sezeelson

    sezeelson PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,236
    Likes Received:
    46
    She also promotes supplements. While I don't disagree with them and know they can be a big help (especially if your dogs farts and smells like a porta loo!), I would much rather change their diet so they get it naturally.
     
  3. pogo

    pogo PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Messages:
    8,423
    Likes Received:
    688
    Well i don't do barf, i feed prey model raw, so no rice/veg or anything.

    Also my 8 weeks old pups get the same bones and meal my adults do.
     
  4. sezeelson

    sezeelson PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,236
    Likes Received:
    46
    No I am not keen on feeding the rice etc. but I feed veg for all the vits and minerals in them.

    She can't get through the bones of the other stuff so she can only eat chicken
     
  5. pogo

    pogo PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Messages:
    8,423
    Likes Received:
    688
    apart from dogs get very little from veggies ;)

    Well if my 8 week old staff can get through lamb and pork, i'd of thought a boxer pup can
     
  6. sezeelson

    sezeelson PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,236
    Likes Received:
    46
    They don't gets loads, its all blended up and not fed with every meal! I just think it all helps, especially for a healthy immune system as I'm dreading her jabs :(

    I will try her again, maybe she just couldn't be bothered to try! I have a small lamb ribs actually which will be perfect size for her! She did struggle a bit with her first chicken neck, she tears through them in no time now so maybe she just had a weak jaw?
     
  7. pogo

    pogo PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Messages:
    8,423
    Likes Received:
    688
    Well it won't hurt to give them, but just pointless IMO and more hard work then it's worth!

    She may be just a little lazy, or just getting used to it, but when she's ready i would try lamb or pork ribs, they tend to be nice soft bones and easy to eat
     
  8. sezeelson

    sezeelson PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,236
    Likes Received:
    46
    I will :) thank you! Ill also start her on fish too as she will definitely be able to get through that!
     
  9. Goblin

    Goblin PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    9,334
    Likes Received:
    5,937
    I don't feed Barf but prey model. Saying that I'd like to just point out BARF <> minces. It's just as acceptable when feeding a barf diet to feed large chunks of meat as it is for prey model. It's therefore not a discussion about Barf or Prey Model but one of minces or not ;)

    For me when looking at minces one of the main things which I dislike is what are you actually feeding? What is the quality of the meat? What is the meat? This is even more the case when it comes to ready mixed meals.

    Teeth, you are correct when it comes to decay mainly due to the carbohydrates although not sure what vegetation would do and I would guess it depends how much "sugar" is in the vegetables. Then again with bones you should be cleaning the teeth anyway.

    No idea about "preparing the stomach". However I'd like to point you to http://www.colyerinstitute.org/pdf/diet.pdf
    On page 3 you have some numbered points which deals with some of the effects of "chewing" and the benefits you miss out with minces.
     
  10. sezeelson

    sezeelson PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,236
    Likes Received:
    46
    Thank you very much for the link :D

    I do get my other two beef chunks and when I buy whole carcasses they get breast meat from them. I will on the rare occasion buy pork belly too.

    I order from Manifold Vally Meats
    The minces are minced chicken, minced lamb (no bone), minced venison (no bone) and beef & tripe.

    I'm thinking of putting them back on tripe that isn't minced though.

    Pup is currently getting raw chicken bones. I've also sourced small lamb ribs which I will try her on today. Providing that goes well, I'm going to what other bone meals I can source for her.

    In about a week, I'm looking to get her on two meaty/bone meals and just one minced meal a day.

    I feel like a complete novice again with Runa >< Rossi & raven have been on raw over a year!
     
  11. smokeybear

    smokeybear PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2011
    Messages:
    15,187
    Likes Received:
    8,996
    Hey, EVERYONE is an expert did you not know?

    I have only attended seminars with two ACTUAL experts on Canine Nutrition who have the relevant qualifications to demonstrate that and also communicate with another via the internet.

    The first was Marge Chandler, vet at Royal Dick in Ediburgh (look up all her RELEVANT qualifications)

    The second was this weekend with a consultant nutritionist (all species) who advise world wide

    Dr John Lowe BSc PhD CBiol MSB RNutr

    and Lew Olson PhD

    These are the people who guide me in my approach as they have the necessary skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience to advise on diet.

    I do not subscribe to either "camp" of feeding ie BARF v Prey Model as that is merely subjective view rather than science.

    I call it Raw Feeding, and it does not cause tooth decay per se any more than any other diet.

    There are no digestive enzymes in a dog's saliva (unlike that of humans and others) to help breakdown the food; saliva acts merely as a lubricant, nothing more or less.

    Dogs do not really do chewing, but gnawing.

    Probiotics (and prebiotics) are the KEY to maintaining intestinal health and can help prevent many illnesses

    Rice can be and is metabolised by the body.

    Treats can be ANYTHING.

    Minces are great for incorporating things like veggies and oils and other items and there is nothing intrinsically wrong in them (not a good idea to feed ONLY minces but that is not what we are discussing)

    Dogs can and do extract nutrients from vegetables (and fruit)

    Now all of this information comes from those people WITH the relevant qualifications in NUTRITION not from self styled experts or owners of large libraries.

    So I know who I will be taking my information from (until progress in science proves otherwise which it often does).

    Where YOU prefer to get your information from is your own affair.

    I try to keep up with my CPD and improve my knowledge by regularly attending seminars with the APPROPRIATE professionals

    I certainly learned a few new things on this latest seminar (organised by Angela White at the IABTC, Haxey, Nr Doncaster).



    A behaviourist should be abiding by a professional code of conduct and not be giving advice outside of their remit and expertise. ;)
     
  12. Goblin

    Goblin PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    9,334
    Likes Received:
    5,937
    Isn't it strange how even experts, dealing with science often disagree ;) A certificate saying you're an expert does not make someone magically know everything.
     
  13. smokeybear

    smokeybear PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2011
    Messages:
    15,187
    Likes Received:
    8,996
    Quite right and they are the first to say so, however they generally know a lot more about a subject than lay people (IME)

    I prefer to employ an expert when

    I need medical treatment
    my pet needs medical treatment
    my car needs servicing
    my gas boiler needs servicing

    etc etc

    rather than relying on the "X" factor (in this context = unknown quantity) who are unable to demonstrate ANY proven skills in these areas.

    I am funny that way. ;)

    Forums are great for debates, but REAL experts, rarely spend time on them (IME) they are too busy doing what they are REALLY good at :)
     
  14. Goblin

    Goblin PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    9,334
    Likes Received:
    5,937
    When my car needs servicing I don't need someone with a certificate, I need someone with experience with fixing my make of car ;) Not always the same thing and more applicable in many cases than your other examples. Simply "X says therefore it must be true as they have a certificate" doesn't necessarily work when experience says otherwise. Something to bear in mind ;)

    Not saying experts aren't important.. just not the only source of correct information and even they can be wrong.

    Marge Chandler, vet at Royal Dick in Ediburgh - Royal Dick, due to expert opinion, is against raw feeding by the way..
     
    #14 Goblin, Sep 24, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2013
  15. Prowl

    Prowl Guest

    How does one feed a prey model to d a dog ?:confused:
     
  16. Bryxy

    Bryxy PetForums Senior

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2013
    Messages:
    531
    Likes Received:
    11
    I don't understand how being against raw feeding undermines expertise? Or maybe you didn't mean it like that?
     
  17. pogo

    pogo PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Messages:
    8,423
    Likes Received:
    688
    Prey model just means prey animal basically, so giving the whole animal as it comes naturally
     
  18. sezeelson

    sezeelson PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,236
    Likes Received:
    46
    Thanks guys.

    I've done my research from literally everywhere including information against raw feeding and the 'dangers' of it. I don't understand why this lady warned me against probiotic yoghurt when she knows full well pup gets a bone everyday to keep her teeth on good nic. Both the other two get yoghurt regularly and their teeth are still great :)

    Runa is only gettin minces everyday as she struggles to get through bone, I don't feel comfortable feed her nothing but chicken so I feed her the mince to. Surely this isn't too dissimilar to wolves? Seeing as they eat the bone and regurgitate it for their young?

    The lamb rib was to much for her. I'm giving her rabbit soon but she can't have that too often or I'll go bankrupt!

    GOBLIN your link was extremely useful btw thank you :D

    Thanks smokeybear, my opinions are very similar to what you have written so I feel confident that I'm doing (and know) the right things.
     
  19. sopott

    sopott PetForums Senior

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2012
    Messages:
    490
    Likes Received:
    2
    was the lamb rib to much for her, because she could not chew it (but she happily spent time gnawing the meat off it) or did she throw up afterwards?

    lots of dogs throw up after the first time they get a new meat. also, lamb is very rich, and might just be too big a jump from lean chicken.

    i feed barf, snoopy gets bones, meat cutoffs from the butcher, minced offal and green tripe (i mix it myself, because he won't eat the offal otherwise), fish, eggs, even cottage cheese occasionally. he gets veg with every meal. i get samples of dry food and give these as treats, as well as the fish4dogs, though those will be too big for a pup.

    every dog is different though, and some bones my friend's dalmatian struggles with, snoopy (much smaller) has no difficulty with.

    i would try her on some chunks of meat, though, just for the experience, if nothing else. keep her little brain ticking over discovering new food. :D
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice