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Supporting BYBs?

Discussion in 'Dog Chat' started by kamikaze, Feb 23, 2017.


  1. kamikaze

    kamikaze PetForums Member

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    I see this CONSTANTLY and wanted to know other members of PFs opinions!

    Im apart of several local groups relating to dogs on Facebook, and all the time I'll see people offering dogs that are either two random "purebred" breeds bred together, or two dogs bred together that are labeled as purebred with no actual proof to back it up (papers registration etc). This seems especially prevalent on Facebook and Craigslist, and the owners often sell the puppies for upwards of 800 dollars, so it's pretty painfully obvious this is only for money.

    I recently got brave and asked a woman selling "Siberian huskies" if the dogs were papered, if they had CERF/SHOR/OFA health panels for eyes and hips, and while she has yet to respond it got me thinking - is it wrong for others to purchase these puppies? They didn't ask to be brought into the world and they deserve a loving home as much as any other puppy, especially with the risk of behavioral / health consequences of poor breeding, but purchasing them is directly supporting the BYB who is obviously only interested in money.

    Before I got Cosmo a neighbor was breeding this white mix breed dog that kind of resembled a husky (really he looked like a white GSD - the people they bought him from said he was husky/wolf but he did not look wolf at all), and their other dog who looked a lot like a husky, and were selling the pups as purebred Siberian huskies. They didn't show any adopters the male who didn't look husky, and just told adopters he wasn't their dog so he wasn't at the house and they couldn't see him, which was a lie of course. The puppies were covered in fleas and my heartstrings yanked at me and I nearly bought one just because I felt so absolutely horrible for the puppies who were just going to random places with no regards for their well being and I knew I would take very good care of them. I ended up deciding against it because it wasn't a breed type I felt ready for, the parents had awful temperaments and aggression issues, and I didn't want to support them.

    So my question is - should people not be purchasing these puppies and instead end up in shelters where their futures are up in the air? Is it okay for them to be adopted into homes that likely have no idea what they're getting into where the risk of them being put into shelters at a later age is already kind of there? If no one bought puppies from a BYB they probably wouldn't try again, but what would become of the poor puppies?

    I just can't help but feel sad for these puppies!
     
  2. evel-lin

    evel-lin PetForums VIP

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    and that's why byb's keep selling puppies.

    My view is I can't save every dog. What I can do is try to educate people I know, support shelters and make sure that when I get a dog I either go to a rescue or I get one from a responsible breeder
     
  3. kamikaze

    kamikaze PetForums Member

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    Shelter support is definitely incredibly important. If the shelter I volunteer at didnt have the support they get from the 200+ volunteers, the adoption fees, and the donations they receive - they wouldn't be running and there would be a lot more homeless animals in our area running loose or dumped.
     
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  4. labradrk

    labradrk PetForums VIP

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    What would become of the puppies if everyone stopped buying them? well they'd probably end up in rescue, or even the dreaded 'free to a good home', but they probably wouldn't be bred again.....after all the main reason the average person breeds their pet dogs is for money, if they don't get that they won't repeat it.

    Unfortunately many BYB's work on the basis of someone feeling 'sorry' for the puppies.
     
  5. kamikaze

    kamikaze PetForums Member

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    I don't know why I didn't just expect this answer! I just hated to see a puppy crawling with fleas being sold to people likely hiding the dog from their landlord! I suppose all we can do is hope they ended up in good hands and support those trying to make that happen
     
  6. Fleur

    Fleur Vassal to Lilly and Ludo

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    Most rescues in england could probably rehome puppies 3 times over - I know when we got Ludo there was at least 2 other potential homes for him.
    If no one bought puppies from BYB, puppy dealers or puppy farms they would go out of business.
    Puppies that ended up in a rescue would be rehomed and the endless miserable cycle of breeding fir the bitch would stop.

    Sadly it's probably not that simple :(
    I know the rescue I got Ludo from tried to get the bitch but the owners wouldn't surrender her - it was bad luck they'd had not sold this litter but they would try again :(
    Also there are just not enough good breeders about they simply can't meet the demand for puppies.
    And it's not unknown for people to seek out what they deem good breeders or a rescue and the breeder or rescue doesn't feel it's the right home for one of their puppies ( well within their rights to do so ) so the fustrated buyer goes where they are under less scrutiny.
    I'm not sure what the answer is - but it would be a start if puppy buyers stopped doing business with BYB, puppy dealers and puppy farms - feeling sorry for the puppies is not a good enough reason to buy, by doing so we are condemning dogs to a life of misery.
     
  7. Siskin

    Siskin Look into my eyes....

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    And then there's those people who will only buy from BYB's and puppy farms and won't buy a dog from the good ethical breeder. Why? Well, as I had it said to me, they only want to have a pet dog not a show dog (they apparently don't want a healthy dog either) and anyway, people who show their dogs are snobs. It's very difficult to try to explain why to people with this mindset as they are convinced they are right and you have lined the pockets of rich snobs because you have bought a pedigree dog
     
  8. kamikaze

    kamikaze PetForums Member

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    I'm so far removed from that now that I forgot that is a completely common reason for people not buying a well bred puppy and instead supporting BYBs. Once a guy in a dog park told me that pedigree dogs have no personality. Huh??
     
  9. Fleur

    Fleur Vassal to Lilly and Ludo

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    when we bought our 1st dog (11 years ago) I genuinely believed KC registration was for show dogs only - it was joining this forum that I discovered different - I didn't even think to look at KC registered as I thought all KC registered dogs were show dogs and sold as such
     
    kamikaze likes this.
  10. Muttly

    Muttly Fluffy Mutts Rule!

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    Luckily, I grew up with parents that knew why to buy KC, Health tested Pedigrees. All of our dogs have been pets with no intention of being showed, so I never had this view thanks to them.
    I think a lot of it is lack of education in the general public. A lot of people genuinely don't think that buying any pet needs much more thought than reading up on how to take care of it.
    BYB then prey on people's natural instinct to 'get a bargain' :( They may be fed any crap from the BYB's like 'Why are these pups so much cheaper than X breeder's pups of the same breed' BYB says: 'Oh because their are dogs for showing/working whatever, if you just want a pet, then these are the pups for you' I can just imagine it happening!

    As heart-wrenching as it is Kami, we CANNOT buy from anyone other than ethical breeders, with all the relevant health and temperament tests done, the less people who continue to buy from BYB's the less people will breed this way because the pups will get harder and harder to sell and then hopefully in the future this will stop these poor pups being born and of course bitches will stop being used as puppy machines.
    You've gotta look at the bigger picture, as hard as it is.

    Rescue centres will temperament test their dogs before re-homing and inform of any health issues that they know of. I see no reason personally why to not rehome from a rescue unless I need or want a specific breed, for whatever reason.
     
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  11. 3dogs2cats

    3dogs2cats PetForums VIP

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    It will depend very much on the individual rescues. I would not want to support an unethical rescue anymore than I would an unethical breeder.
     
  12. Muttly

    Muttly Fluffy Mutts Rule!

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    I agree and that's a good point. You need to kinda vet the rescue too and know what they SHOULD be asking you and telling you etc.. If they are just happy to palm off any dog that you fancy, no questions asked, then alarms bells should ring.
     
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  13. Blitz

    Blitz PetForums VIP

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    Obviously a breeder who is lying about parentage and selling flea ridden puppies should not be breeding and anyone that buys from them is stupid but a large number of litters bred and then advertised on facebook, gumtree etc , although classified on here as BYBs , are in fact loving homes breeding one or two litters from their much loved bitch. If those puppies were not bred (whether or not they are health tested) then most people on here and out in the wider world would not own a dog. Most people that want a puppy want it because their circumstances are right for it now, they want one at the beginning of the summer holidays, because an old dog has died or various other reasons why they are not going to go through a vetting and go on a waiting list. The very fussy breeders or whatever you care to call them are not catering for the average dog owners and in any case are few and far between and could not possibly supply the amount of puppies needed. I think advice from forums like this needs to be a bit more across the board for where to get a puppy from. Do not go to a puppy farm, do not go to the literal back yard breeders with bitches in sheds in the garden or even one bitch churning out litter after litter but it is not difficult to sift through the ads and find that the majority are much loved pets having a litter which has been reared well. It might not be everyone's ideal but the majority of dog owners are very happy with the pup they buy and very little more chance of having health problems than dogs from 'proper' breeders. In fact I would say that most people I know that have had health problems with their dogs are from good health tested litters. That is just my personal experience. If there were more litters that were from health tested parents so that you could actually have an equal choice at the time you wanted then of course go for the health tested litter but as it is there is really no choice unless you want to wait a long time which is not practical or sensible for most potential puppy owners.
     
  14. Muttly

    Muttly Fluffy Mutts Rule!

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    @Blitz makes a good point. One of our Retrievers, came from a family who bred one litter from their bitch. She was still health tested and screened for the common GR conditions etc. But I have no doubt that it was to continue this wonderful line of temperament, she is really an amazing dog. She is also the healthiest GR we have had!
     
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  15. MaggiesMom

    MaggiesMom PetForums Senior

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    I hadn't even thought about it like that :eek:
    I get it, kinda, but dear god how awful?! Again, pro rescue over here, I'm not fussed about pedigrees as long as I love the dog and 'connect' with it, it can be whatever. It's all about the education and until byb are made illegal and presecutions are carried out and it is therefore in the news etc, no one will realise the extent of the problem and why it IS problem.

    Last week on supervet there was a dog (think it might have been the dachshund?) and the lady had had it from a bad breeder 'to save it' (or something similar, forgive me I can't remember the exact details) but even Noel said this is why it happens, we feel sorry for the pup but it frees up a space for the next badly bred dog.
     
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  16. Siskin

    Siskin Look into my eyes....

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    I do believe there is a place for breeders who, for whatever reason, choose not to show or work their dogs but wish to breed from them to sell as pet dogs, BUT I also believe they must health test for the common conditions found in the breed and also only breed from dogs with good temperaments.
    Not bothering to health test for HD, ED and PRA in goldies for instance doesn't make the conditions magically go away,
    Perhaps there should be something like the inspections, tests and permissions in some parts of Europe before someone is permitted to breed and sell dogs. I think Switzerland has this. If you breed a dog without the relevant paperwork then you face huge fines and can no longer breed dogs
     
  17. Siskin

    Siskin Look into my eyes....

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    I noticed that on the Supervet program last week and had a mini cheer. There's been posts on here about Noel repairing badly bred dogs and not saying anything about poor breeding practices, perhaps he has but that bits not been shown on the program. Maybe the producers of the program have been reading this forum:D
     
  18. MaggiesMom

    MaggiesMom PetForums Senior

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    Yes my ears pricked up, I know he wouldn't want to cause a media shit storm but he could use his experience to raise some awareness too, especially if he is genuinely seeing a case of bad breeding practice, he could highlight the issues it causes.
     
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  19. labradrk

    labradrk PetForums VIP

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    I do agree with a lot of this. 99% of people wanting a pet dog are not going to go on a waiting list for years and jump through hoops to appease an 'excellent' breeder. As you say most people want one to fit within a particular time frame so that it fits in with their life at that time. That has certainly been the case with the dogs I have purchased, rather than potentially waiting years. There is nothing wrong with that of course if that is what someone chooses to do (far more likely with unusual breeds I would think) but it's not going to work for the majority.

    Oh a slightly different subject, I think the same with a lot of protocols that are suggested for behaviour modification. Most pet owners do not want to spend months counter conditioning and desensitising and keeping a dog under threshold. It's unrealistic in the real world. They want a quick fix, which I do understand. Back on topic.....

    To me there is nothing wrong with breeding from a pet bitch PROVIDED she's health tested and she's matched with a suitable male. After all 99% of dogs are going to end up in a pet home. I don't and won't agree with breeding two pet dogs without any forethought behind be breeding. I think we owe it to our dogs to try and reduce health problems if they are potentially avoidable via health testing. No excuses, and there is plenty of information out there in this day and age.
     
  20. Sled dog hotel

    Sled dog hotel PetForums VIP

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    I'm with Siskin on this one I haven't got any problems either with someone deciding to have a litter of puppies from their dog to maybe keep a pup, and sell the rest to friends and family or even someone else, so long as they research properly first and breed with some knowledge and health test and ensure the male they choose is also health tested and selected carefully for the right reasons, and also that they spend time selecting the right people to rehome the pups.
    Without breeding properly and health testing etc then the health and welfare of dogs is never ever going to improve.

    The real problem is being caused by puppy farms and large commercial breeders, or people just allowing their own dogs to mate, or deciding to breed their dogs with Joe blogs dog around the corner, often thinking its a good idea to make a few bob or it would be just nice to let their dog have a litter for the experience.
     
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