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Supplements for raw diet

Discussion in 'Cat Health and Nutrition' started by Paddypaws, Jun 7, 2010.


  1. Paddypaws

    Paddypaws PetForums VIP

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    Ok, I am still dipping my toe in the raw pool! Don't have the freezer space for a huge bulk order from a supplier, don't ( yet ) have a grinder, but am definitely trying to get the new kitten onto maybe 50% raw diet with what I can get in local shops.
    So far have tried regular beef mince, diced turkey thigh, chicken wings, rabbit bone in, beef and chicken hearts, organic chicken liver, and pig kidney.
    Next problem is additional supplements.
    I have bought a product from Pet Authority( on recommendation) through Nutritional Supplements UK
    X-CART. Powerful PHP shopping cart software :: Pet and Animal Supplements :: Noni Juice | Mangosteen Juice | Pomegranate Juice | Colon Cleansers | Nutritional Supplements

    It is a liquid spray with a good list of ingredients....only worrying one being garlic which I thought could cause anaemia in cats. The main thing is that the cats so far will take it added to their food!
    Anyone care to comment on the above product or care to share advice on supplementation?
     
  2. billyboysmammy

    billyboysmammy PetForums VIP

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    garlic is toxic because it is in the same family as onions. The amount of garlic needed to cause toxicity is huge, and i defy any cat to eat enough, however double check how concentrated it is in your supplement.


    I do not supplement my cats raw diets using chemical supplements. I do use natural raw food supplements such as heart, shellfish, catmint, cat grass etc.

    There are a few occasions when i would reccomend a commercial supplement however, and i am not in any way saying that someone choosing to use them is wrong, its just not for me and mine as i prefer to go about things the more natural way.
     
  3. hobbs2004

    hobbs2004 PetForums VIP

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    How funny - i was just thinking of doing a thread on raw feeding and possible supplements (depending on persuasion).

    Since you want to feed more than the 20% of your cat's meal as raw then you will need to worry about their food being complete. So, that means 80% muscle meat, 10% bone and 10% offal (of which 5% liver).

    As I said somewhere else today, the 10% bone are non-negotiable. You will need to get the correct balance of calcium in their food to prevent problems later as well as to prevent runny tums (not enough calcium) or constipation (too many bones). If you cannot feed enough bones, then see whether you can get ground ones or eggshells or calcium supplements (such as bonemeal, calcium phosphate etc).

    Re the supplement - forget it. If you feed the correct percentage of liver then you don't really need to worry about Vitamin A, if you use a little bit of salmon than you cover Vitamin D3. For example. With a product like that it is very hard to say whether you are using enough of one thing and not enough of the other. If you want to supplement, make your own mix! Not as hard as it sounds.

    i could give you a list of supplements that you could use (most of them from a natural source). I think there is generally frequently a confusion what supplements mean. To me using a wheatgerm oil for Vit E is a supplement - but is a natural product, not produced synthetically. Or seaweed powder for iodine - again natural, not synthetic. Or salt. Or fortain if you don't feed enough blood.

    But it depends on your persuasion really. Most on here follow the prey model. That really means that you should feed a whole animal include head, fur, feathers, stomach, blood etc.

    I think that is not practical for most people, so we need to rebuild a prey diet from other ingredients and I personally think we need supplements for that.

    Others don't. No-one is right, no-one is wrong. It is just about finding out what you would like to do and what you think is right for your animal :)
     
    #3 hobbs2004, Jun 7, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2010
  4. billyboysmammy

    billyboysmammy PetForums VIP

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    thats very true


    here are some of the more basic types of raw feeding

    1 - prey model (whole carcasses fur feathers feet n all)
    2 - prey model (chunks of carcasses without skin fur n feathers... trying to recreate as natural a diet as possible without resorting to feeding whole prey)
    3 - barf (usually includes mixing about 10-30% vegetables in with the diet)

    With regards to supplementation, i am always of the opinion that natural supplements are better but others hold different views.

    e.g.
    Natural supplements for taurine would include, heart (especially poultry heart), shellfish (prawn, clams and scallops in particular), and cheek or tongue.

    Others will prefer to use a commercial taurine powder to add to the food.

    Neither are right or wrong, so long as the cat gets enough of the right nutrients.
     
  5. hobbs2004

    hobbs2004 PetForums VIP

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    Sal, i would say that they there are four categories

    1 - prey model (whole carcasses fur feathers feet n all)
    2 - prey model (chunks of carcasses without skin fur n feathers... trying to recreate as natural a diet as possible without resorting to feeding whole prey)
    3 - barf (usually includes mixing about 5% vegetables in with the diet)
    4 - barf without the veg - but using supplements - I am certainly of that persuasion though I occasionally grate a tiny bit of carrot or courgette into their food.

    I am not a fan of synthetic supplements either (apart from taurine, I add a powder to my food even if it includes heart), but surely we can agree that seaweed powder, fortain (dried haemoglobin - to use when you don't feed blood), wheatgermoil, salt etc are all "natural" supplements.

    Edit - in cat barfing the veg content is 5% - it can be up to 30% in dogs - but not cats.

    You don't need a grinder really - pre-prepared minces are dead easy for people because you don't need to worry about bones and offal - you get it all in one. However, minces also remove one of the great benefits of raw feeding from the diet - chewing! So you could just feed chunks of food. You could see whether a butcher will mince you some bones that you could then add to your chunks (or you could eggshells).

    There are a couple of pre-prepared barf supplements available. For example, zooplus does felini complete, there is also easy barf (germany) as well as Feline Future (germany with EU cover). You don't need bones for these, for some you don't need offal either.

    So there are loads of options for you really.
     
    #5 hobbs2004, Jun 7, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2010
  6. Tje

    Tje Banned

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    oh my $%&@

    Is there somewhere I can report you ?

    :p
     
    hobbs2004 likes this.
  7. Paddypaws

    Paddypaws PetForums VIP

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    Well thanks for all the above replies. My personal belief is that natural is best...so would be very happy to see a list of natural supplements which I could use. Feeding a chunk of heart is far more appealing to me than sprinkling white powder ( taurine ) onto food. I had not thought of feeding catmint or cat grass...but of course it makes perfect sense. I had previously seen a green powder recommended for cats ( holisticvet.co.uk) but the site no longer seems to be offering the product.
    As far as the spray supplement goes...well I have it here now so may as well carry on using it. I have been assured that the amount of garlic really is pretty minimal....but it just shows that cats are still treated as small dogs in terms of vet care, when we of course know they are very different. Superior!
     
  8. hobbs2004

    hobbs2004 PetForums VIP

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    Cool - I will put together a list of the things I use and post them here.

    In the meantime, how many sprays of that supplement do they say a cat needs on their food each day?
     
  9. Catlover2

    Catlover2 PetForums Member

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    Hi Paddypaws!

    Fancy seeing you here ;)

    Good Luck with the raw...

    ~X~
     
  10. hobbs2004

    hobbs2004 PetForums VIP

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    Right, here are the supplements I use (typically just a few grams of each) when I make up my recipe (I have a barf calculator which tells me how much of them to use depending on the meat I use and whether or not I am including bones in the recipe).

    - Liver for Vitamin A
    - Salmon (Salmon salar) for Vitamin D
    - Wheatgerm oil Vitamin E
    - Salmon oil for omega 3
    - Brewer's yeast flakes for B-Vitamins and zinc
    - Seaweed powder for iodine
    - Fortain (dried pigblood) for iron when i don't feed a lot of blood
    - Salt (seasalt or Himalayan salt) for sodium
    - Eggshell powder for calcium when I don't feed bones
    (there are one more calcium supplement that I use at times: calcium-
    carbonate)
    - Bonemeal for calcium and phosphorus - in conjunction with eggshells in
    some recipes.
    - Dicalciumphosphate to balance out the calcium/phosphorus ratio (if
    needed)
    - Water
    - Goose fat when the meat I use is too lean

    Although heart is an integral part of any of my recipes I also use some powder (3g for 2kg of meat).

    I use a few sesame seeds, grated carrot or courgette, psyllium husks or a little pumpkin at times - perhaps once or twice a week.

    Hope that helps!
     
  11. Paddypaws

    Paddypaws PetForums VIP

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    Cats and kittens up to 10 lb.......2 sprays per meal
    cats 11 lb and over...................3 sprays per meal

    I am sure some one on here has a link to info about liquid vitamins in their signature, maybe they can comment on this product?
     
  12. hobbs2004

    hobbs2004 PetForums VIP

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    It is FEWii who I believe has got a link to vits in his signature.

    I see this product as a supplement to a commercial diet, not one to supplement a raw diet with. Those are two completely different kettle of fish.

    The first one, well, you want to add more vitamins and minerals to a complete food because you feel that either the food warrants it (if it is too low on vits etc) or because you feel your cat benefits from an extra dose at times. At bottom of the link it has this warning: This product is intended for intermitent or supplements cats feeding only. I think that says it all.

    Supplementing a raw diet - well, you are sort of starting from scratch as the meat doesn't already include enough of what a cat needs. I am not sure I am expressing this in the most concise way but I hope you see what I am getting at.

    For example, if you are not feeding bone then you need to find another supplement for the calcium. That spray is not going give you the amount of calcium you need to balance out the phosphorus that is in meat.

    Also, if you are not feeding enough blood then you will need to find something to include the iron that cats get from blood - hence the fortain. Again, the spray presumes that there is already iron in the food - hence the rather low concentration. Etc etc

    If you want a quick fix to the raw food supplement issue then have a look at the likes of felini complete, feline future etc. But personally, I would not be using that spray for too long - it is not going to make your raw only meat food "complete".
     
  13. Paddypaws

    Paddypaws PetForums VIP

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    Some very good points Hobbs, thank you.
    Kitten has just polished off a mixed - (un)grill consisting of chunks of chicken wing, lamb heart, chicken liver and minced turkey.
    Hmm, now the question of iron/blood is a new one to consider! Never heard that brought up before while discussing raw. I agree that butchered meat will have been bled, and therefore presumably lower in blood than whole prey.
    Oh for the blissful days of Hills Dry prescription foods!
    You mentioned a BARF calculator Hobbs....where would one get such a thing?
     
  14. hobbs2004

    hobbs2004 PetForums VIP

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    Yummmy - lots of licking of lips afterwards I bet!

    Ah, the Barf calculator. (says meekly) it is in German. I have been talking to the makers for a while now to see whether they are willing to translate it into English and they are now considering that option. So I will keep you posted.

    It puzzled me that such a thing does not exist in English (yes, they are dog ones but they are normally to determine feeding portions). And I think it is because Brits and Americans tend to favour the prey method of feeding (just join rawcats and you know what I mean), whereas Europeans (and particularly German speaking ones - though not all, there are some hard core prey feeding factions lol) tend to work with supplements and either barf using veg or don't use veg- only suppies.
     
  15. hobbs2004

    hobbs2004 PetForums VIP

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    :eek: I just saw how much Fortain is retailing for on zooplus (which seems to be the only source of that stuff in the UK or does someone else know where else to get it?). That's a ridiculous price :eek6:

    I can get the same thing for 9.90 euro (250g of fortain) or 3.95 euro for 80g from a German barf shop. Let me know if you need any and I can add it to my order!
     
  16. Paddypaws

    Paddypaws PetForums VIP

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    Sorry for my delay in reply......the cat gang all seem to have come down with some kind of cold so it has been rather hectic here.
    That is a very generous offer Hobbs, thank you so much. It does look like a great product which would be very useful ( looks at shelves and kitchen cupboards groaning with every conceivable brand and variety of supplement)
    I would like to order the larger amount please.
    Please pm me so I can send you a cheque to cover product and postage.
     
  17. hobbs2004

    hobbs2004 PetForums VIP

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    No problem - I will add the 250 tub to my order. I am going to place one early next week, so I should be able to send it out to you the week after that. Would that be ok. Don't worry about payment until I have the fortain here (I will pm you when I have it).

    In the meantime, next time you are at the butchers see whether they have some lamb spleen. That is high in iron too but a lot of cats don't like eating it. Perhaps they could give you a little bit to try. I alternate with spleen and fortain.

    The other thing, depending on your butcher, is to see whether they can get you a little bit of beef blood (I can predict the look you will get, which will be along the lines of: :001_rolleyes: lol). You can get those little icecube bags, pour it in there and freeze it. Then you could use a cube with their food.
     
  18. Paddypaws

    Paddypaws PetForums VIP

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    I think I will stick with the Fortaine thanks!
     
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