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Stud fees

Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by ChipRivers, Nov 8, 2012.


  1. ChipRivers

    ChipRivers PetForums Newbie

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    Hi all.

    We have a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel that we have been asked to use as a stud.

    We have not done this before so are after some advice on the normal arrangements for this service.

    Many thanks.
     
  2. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

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    What health tests has he had? If he hasn't had any and isn't proven, I'd tell whoever is asking to go and whistle. Handling a dog at stud isn't easy, you need to know a lot more about the physiology of a bitch than most bitch owners, and have to know lines etc, if you haven't got that knowledge, you need a very good, close mentor. I'd also suggest you check his pedigree, he may be endorsed, which means progeny can't be registered with the KC, and the breeder may be interested in you wanting to breed from him, of course they may not, but that would indicate to me he's not from a good breeder in the first place.

    Lots more info is really needed about whether he's KC registered, is he shown, has he had health tests done etc, etc, otherwise with a lack of info people will jump to the wrong conclusions.
     
  3. Dober

    Dober PetForums VIP

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    I've been asked to use my male at stud in the local park lots of times. I think it is unethical to take someone up on this offer. No responsible breeder would use a male they met in the park (no matter how nice he is!) when they can get fully health tested, proven stud dogs online from reputable breeders who breed for health, temperament, conformation, working ability, longevity and pedigree.

    Do you really want to be responsible for someone bringing a low-quality litter of puppies ino the world when rescues are full of them? Would you even be interested in their health and getting good homes?

    Let him be a pet!
     
  4. miljar

    miljar Banned

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    If you do decide to go ahead and do this thing the stud fee is usually based on the price of any pups that are produced -you can take that as a guide. A normal arrangement is the money or the pick of litter.
    I don't know if your boy is proven or not, but you would have to offer a re-mating if the girl does not take, or a refund.
    Two ties, 24 hours apart, are the usual deal, but you can work out your own arrangements.
    I would assume that both parties will be there?There will be some holding to be done.
     
  5. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    :yikes: :yikes: really :confused: i know there are variations between breeds on exactly how stud fees work - but in many breeds there are LARGE variations between the price of a pup and the stud fee.

    IF I was considering a pup from the litter - it would ME making the payment of the difference between the stud fee and the pup.

    How could an inexperienced set of owners have "pick" of the litter - what exactly does "pick" mean if you are not looking at showing / working the dog and these days it's quite likely under these circumstances, the breeder would want first pick - they put in the work, time and effort (not to mention money).7

    There is the practice of a basic fee plus a fee per pup - but don't think it is widely practiced in the UK.

    To the OP - not sure if this thread is a wind-up or not - some people know which buttons to press and which dogs to ask about to light the blue touch paper.

    This is a breed with more than it's share of health-problems including SM and MVD which must NOT be ignored

    Syringomyelia (SM) and the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel

    Mitral Valve Disease and the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel

    ========================

    Can I ask, if you did go ahead and use your dog at stud - how would you advise novice breeders? would you be able to give good advice on testing, when they are ready for mating, when to panic / not panic near the bitch's due date - how to hand raise the litter? where to sell the pups - the list goes on - most of those I know who have studs only have good friends / mentors on hand they can go to for advice if needed - not from a public forum with members of just about every breed and cross imaginable
     
  6. Darth

    Darth PetForums Member

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    There's a huge difference between the price of stud fee and pups in my breed.

    In fact it's more than double!

    There are so many people that own a pet dog and think its easy and a real good money spinner to use him at stud.

    In truth it's not so simple, the dog goes from being the lovely pet you've got to being a stud dog with only one thing on his mind, not only that, to stud him properly and responsibly it's a real hands on job. And that's not everyone's cup of tea!
     
  7. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    Spot on with this - stud fees in our breed vary from a half to a third of the price of a pup.


    You are not wrong there either - you quickly become quite intimate with your boys bits, not to mention their "bodily fluids" :rolleyes:

    I wanted to like your post, and agree wholeheartedly that the OP has a LOT to learn (assuming the poster is not trying for a wind-up) and that they shouldn' even be contemplating it unless of course they have an established and responsible breeder to act as a full mentor who will advise them on the health-tests and help support the owners of any visiting bitches etc etc.

    But the effects you outline on how the dog will change is a VERY sweeping generalisation, and quite unfair.

    Yes, there will be some dogs who get a great surge of testosterone after having a bitch or two, and you can particularly get male on male aggression (both factors that can also affect any entire adolescent male) - but personally, I've NEVER witnessed any changes in personality from dogs used at stud, whether it be occasionally or regularly.

    My eldest boy is laying beside me on the floor as happy as the day is long - we were only saying today he wouldn't know how to respond to aggression if it jumped up and bit him on the bum.

    He's sweet, gentle and very affectionate - never frisky and hasn't tried getting friendly with any of the girls unless they are bang on for mating - only then do we have a few frustrating days (my younger boy who hasn't been used is actually far more determined to get to the girls).

    I even took an in season bitch to eye-testing with my eldest obviously separated but close enough to know she was there) - he didn't bat an eye-lid because she wasn't ready for mating.

    It is wrong to assume that all dogs will become sex mad with great surges of testosterone which can lead to male on male fights and chasing after neutered males - it CAN happen - but you will only know it has happened when it does - so it something prospective stud owners need to be aware of - and it wouldn't surprise me with some that do seemingly change if there was already a hint of this type of attitude prior to them being used at stud.

    People shouldn't assume it's an automatic pathway to change, because it isn't.

    ====================

    In fact, the biggest humpers in my house are unquestionably the girls - they hump the boys to keep them in their place, and when in season - they hump each other - I've had them in rows of three all humping one another in the past :lol:
     
    #7 swarthy, Nov 9, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  8. miljar

    miljar Banned

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    With regard to my previous post on this thread I would like to point out that it is just received info, I have not had any personal experience to give as a definite. Nonetheless, it did come from a reliable source and so I do believe it to be fairly accurate. This is not "high-end" stuff that we are talking about here.
    It was a go at answering the OP, and to the best of my ability. I thought that someone should make an effort.
    I notice that they have not come back, and so I suppose that it does not really matter now.
     
  9. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

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    The OP may not have come back, but I can assure you there will be plenty who read this, a lot of whom will be wondering whether they could possibly make income from their pet dog as a stud dog.
     
  10. rocco33

    rocco33 PetForums VIP

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    I think the difference is that they tend to be in the hands of experienced dog owners and are well trained. I think the changes are more noticable with dogs that are pets in less experienced hands.
     
  11. Darth

    Darth PetForums Member

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    Swarthy.... I wasn't necessarily suggesting that all dogs are aggressive to other males after mating I was thinking more on the lines of having tried it once they were on the lookout for it again.

    While I don't own a stud dog now I have in the past had entire dogs who in their previous homes were used for breeding. They were constantly "bitching" while out on walks and very often took off to find what they had a taste of!
     
  12. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    Adolescent boys (canine) can do this as well (as do some human males) - but many of them grow out of it.

    Even some neutered dogs don't "lose the urge" - something else a lot of people don't seem to realise - they are capable of mating and tying with the bitch - and I know of at least a couple of situations where this has happened.

    I would say that the personality of the individual dog plays a key role as well - my eldest was always laid back - now he's virtually horizontal :rolleyes:



    what do you mean by "high-end" stuff? :confused:

    In the main (I believe with a couple of exceptions in the working world) - generally stud fees appear to be relatively similar across the board.

    My two dogs from a top show breeder were no more expensive than the responsible pet breeder down the road, or the smaller scale hobby breeders.

    Both puppy and stud fees seem to have risen of late - but for good breeders - the prices remain pretty much on a par.

    I've seen pups from top kennels with TWO SH CH parents for £500/£600 and pups from pet breeders selling for more.

    I recently saw a "larger scale" breeder selling pups higher than many top breeders recently - £725 for a pup - £825 for "litter pick" and a £150 non-refundable deposit. Although they appear to have stopped breeding Labs now.

    If I wanted to retain the option to bring in a pup from one of my boys - I would not ask for a stud fee until a decision has been made and then either take the stud fee or pay the difference between the stud fee and the price of the pup I wanted.

    ==============================

    In my own breed - if a mating is achieved, the stud fee is paid, along with a contract usually allowing for a repeat mating if this one fails (and some where the bitch had a very small litter).

    For an unproven dog, money and paperwork would usually change hands at the point of pregnancy confirmation.

    ==========================

    Out of curiosity to those in other breeds - is this base fee with an additional payment for each pup common in some breeds in the UK?
     
    #12 swarthy, Nov 9, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  13. Darth

    Darth PetForums Member

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    Adolescent boys (canine) can do this as well (as do some human males) - but many of them grow out of it.

    And many don't .....my worst boy for it was still doing it at 10 yrs old. In fact that's how we lost him, running off for a bitch, but that's another story and one reason I won't keep males.
     
  14. PennyGC

    PennyGC PetForums VIP

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    stud fees vary between breeds so best to have a look around and find out how much reputable people charge - in my breeds it varies from way below the price of a puppy (£250 for top quality sire - £750 for top quality pup) to about the same.

    No sensible bitch owner would ever give 'pick' of litter - a puppy perhaps but never 'pick'...

    The stud dog owner needs to be highly knowledgeable and highly skilled in both the theory (ie lines, health etc) and the physical side to prevent injury etc.

    The breed involved here is a contentious one regarding health tests and the amount of poor breeding so I hope it's a wind up. If not I hope the OP (if they're still around) thinks very carefully and says 'no' to this person....
     
  15. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    :( understandable - I know someone whose Lab did the same thing (although much younger) - the went straight under a car - they did survive but had some horrific injuries and a long road to recovery.
     
  16. dexter

    dexter PetForums VIP

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    stud work is not for me, despite being asked several times by owners to use my boy. The one time i did allow him to be used i got my experienced sheltie friend to do the mating for me. One bad experience can and does cause alot of damage to both dogs. Thankfully because of the way he was handled at stud he's no different at all.In our breed stud fees are £300-£400 and pups go for £650-£850.
     
  17. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    Yes, I was VERY fortunate that my boy's first bitch - the owner was an experienced stud handler as well as breeder - it makes a HUGE difference - she was absolutely brilliant.

    The only b*ggar is she lives miles away from me :(
     
  18. ChipRivers

    ChipRivers PetForums Newbie

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    Thanks for all of the replies. I never realised what a contentious topic I was entering into! It has made me realise how naive we may have been and you can all rest assured that we have put this idea to bed. Many thanks for all the advice though.
     
  19. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    What a refreshing post. :dita:

    For the record, there is nothing wrong with being interested in, or asking questions about breeding (better that than going in blind), but for most people, I would say start with a bitch bought from a good breeder who is willing to guide you through the maze of understanding health requirements, pedigrees, hopefully the showring etc and, if all health results are acceptable, help you find the best sire for your bitch, then go from there.

    There is nothing wrong with asking questions, and hopefully no-one has offended you; as you can probably gather, breeding generally is a topic that provokes much emotion.

    It just so happens that you also own a breed that does have some quite serious health issues which really don't afford breeders any scope for manoeuvrability or risk taking.

    If you do decide to buy in a new pup - then look for a breeder who does the following health-tests, and who is willing to guide you through the maze which is breeding, whether you buy a dog or bitch.

    • Annual eye testing
    • Breed club - heart testing (mitral valve dysplasia)
    • BVA/KC CM/SM Syringomyelia test
     
  20. muse08

    muse08 PetForums Member

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    In addition to those three tests there is also a DNA test for dry eye curly coat and episodic falling syndrome - AHT
     
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