Welcome to PetForums

Join thousands of other pet owners and pet lovers on the UK's most popular and friendly pet community and discussion forum.

Sign Up

Some Observations

Discussion in 'Cat Breeding' started by ses6jwg, Jul 29, 2009.


  1. ses6jwg

    ses6jwg PetForums Newbie

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    ...........
     
    #1 ses6jwg, Jul 29, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2010
  2. Biawhiska

    Biawhiska PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Messages:
    6,671
    Likes Received:
    191
    i don't think you can say that, what about emergencies? which can and DO happen. you won't ever make money if you do things right.
     
  3. ChinaBlue

    ChinaBlue PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2008
    Messages:
    3,666
    Likes Received:
    90
    Is there a particular point you want to make here? Are you wanting to take a kitten from one of them?

    At the end of the day I think you get what you pay for with a BYB. Is breeder A having blood tests done on her queen prior to taking her to stud and is the stud vaccinated etc?

    I would say £200 as a stud fee is quite cheap as generally all the reputable registered breeders I know charge in the region of £300+.

    If you are looking to buy a kitten and you would like some recommendations please feel free to pm me.
     
  4. andywest

    andywest PetForums Junior

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2008
    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    0
    People charge £300 for their cat to have sex? :eek:ut: Hope it includes champagne and candles.
     
    #4 andywest, Jul 29, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2009
  5. Saikou

    Saikou PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    2,992
    Likes Received:
    154
    I would love to know how you get to that profit margin. I take it you have never bred yourself :D
     
  6. Biawhiska

    Biawhiska PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Messages:
    6,671
    Likes Received:
    191
    A stud cat is VERY expensive to keep, if you keep him proper and give him the life he deserves. I know some people shove a cat in a shed and charge loadsa money not caring about his welfare... or even bother sitting with him etc. :(
     
  7. ellie8024

    ellie8024 PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    May 4, 2009
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    18
    i think the OP got the figures as an ideal profit margin not taking into account vet checks blood tests etc and insurance but it does show why there are so many BYB out there
     
  8. Biawhiska

    Biawhiska PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Messages:
    6,671
    Likes Received:
    191
    well, then those people are not breeders, they are just scum.
     
  9. Saikou

    Saikou PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    2,992
    Likes Received:
    154
    I agree about hobby breeders, there are genuine "hobby breeders" with a few queens who only have one litter a year, they may have a stud for their own use. They may have a number of cats but most are neuters. Even if a breeding cat needs to be spayed/neutered they stay as family members. Then there are those with lots of entire cats of both sexes, all queens have 2 or more litters a year, no neuters as they are just a drain on resources. Their studs are also public. They rehome everything thats no longer of use, or sell younger cats on entire- sometimes pregnant. The latter types are NOT true hobby breeders and should not be allowed to hide behind that mantle. Their cats are a business and yes I have no doubt they do make money. The cats are not treated as family members they are purely commodities, kittens aren't fought hard for, just allowed to "go" as any thing else eats into profit.

    Genuine hobby breeders do not make any money. You have to do things of a fairly large scale to make a profit. Its very easy too sit with a pen and paper and tot up what you think represents the cost of raising a kitten from pre conception through to their new home and then comparing that to the cost of that kitten. But there will be tons of expense that you have not thought of.

    Do it yourself, find an active kitten, and have a litter, then report back on the profit you make. I am willing to bet you will find it a huge eye opener.
     
  10. Biawhiska

    Biawhiska PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Messages:
    6,671
    Likes Received:
    191
    most hobbys cost alot of money, though not sure about train spotting :D what would annoy me is how they treat their cats in order to get £££ i do think the internet has made byb worse, well, it seems easier to advertise all these cats etc
     
  11. spid

    spid PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2008
    Messages:
    14,214
    Likes Received:
    380
    My 'costs' before the litter was even born totalled £1800 - that included the cost of my queen, studding (x3), travel (stud was 4.5 hours away), snap tests, scans to find out she wasn't pregnant, scan to find out she was finally, prefix fee (GCCF and TICA), etc etc etc - I have it all written down somewhere.

    Cost's since the litter - 2 vet checks (£40), jabs - 2x£50 (extra vet checks included), worming (£5), registration (£14) time spent on phone calls, updating website, taking photos for new owners, writing about the personality of the kittens for their owners etc - incalcuable, 2x kitten packs (£20 min), new carrier to take kittens to vets as only had one (£25) extra food and litter (I use good quality food) - haven't worked it out but we get through a lot in 13 weeks!

    Kittens (only 2 in this litter) £375 each so a total of £750 - had a loss of £1800 effectively already so still £1050 behind! DOn't tell hubby!

    EDIT : remembered more - kittening pen (£40), Feliway diffuser as mum got stressed (£24), vet bed (£20) for the kitten pen, kittystim, cimicat etc (£25), toys for the kittens which they have since destroyed (£7), extra feeding bowls (£5)

    At lot of this was becasue this was the first litter and I will be able to use a lost of it again. But no, it ain't cheap! I AM a hobby breeder I have one queen only and a moggy - check out my website it's true!
     
    #11 spid, Jul 29, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2009
  12. Angeli

    Angeli PetForums Senior

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2008
    Messages:
    910
    Likes Received:
    19

    Well said!
    Another point to add though that hasent been mentioned yet - many breeders also like to exhibit what they produce, and it proves that they are breeding to better the breed not just churning out kittens for the pet market.

    An entry fee of 30 pounds or more per cat plus travelling expenses on top of that ??? at one show per month on average - and with petrol being as expensive as it is if you had managed to make a profit the showing side would soon wipe that out.

    You can generally tell from that who the genuine breeders are - the ones who breed for the profit only are certainly not interested in showing.
     
  13. Saikou

    Saikou PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    2,992
    Likes Received:
    154
    It does indeed its my biggest bug bear :cursing: They are usually the ones that charge silly money for their kittens. They don't pick a breed because they love it and have grown up with it, they pick them because of the potential return based on the pricing policy of that breed group for kittens and studs. They bang on about research, but that is purely market and cost driven. You can spot those types a mile off, they all come up with the same patter and claims, but always give themselves away because they have no real empathy for their chosen breed or genuine love for the cats they own.

    They refer to themselves as hobby breeders for the obvious reason, but also because it helps sell the kittens. They are basically kitten farmers with a glossy sheen. They do say you can't polish a turd, but they give it a jolly good go.
     
  14. xxSaffronxx

    xxSaffronxx PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    1,898
    Likes Received:
    24
    And the other reason they class themselves as "hobby breeders" like we discussed yesterday Saiks is to avoid taxes and keeping proper accounts :mad:
    And like you say a lot of them have a high turnover of kittens, and therefore will be making some profit - none of which will be declared!!!

    Not only do I have to do this but I am also self employed for my freelance accounting work and have to declare it all - its another income at the end of the day
     
  15. lizward

    lizward PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    6,023
    Likes Received:
    182
    First, I think that it is a very rare pedigree cat indeed who manages to produce three litters a year. Some of us struggle to get even one! As for making money, all most of us can say is, chance would be a fine thing. Hang out on novice breeders forums and it soon becomes clear that most are broke! Now, if you have a breed where the kittens sell for £900, that's another matter, but few of us are in that category! I made a crashing loss last year when I had four litters.

    This year I have only had one litter so far and I will make a small profit on that litter unless things go horribly wrong over the next few days, total sale price (if I had sold them all, actually I am keeping one or two) £1400, total cost of vaccinations and microchips £386.52, total cost of food for kittens (estimated) £95, total cost of litter for kitten (estimated) £30, total cost of extra food for Mum (estimated) £35, total cost of registrations £35, total expenses something approaching £600, total profit in the region of £800, or an average of £160 per kitten. But that has been an exceptionally healthy litter and no birth complications.

    Last year with one queen I had two kittens and a post-kittening infection that cost me nearly £600 (that is the profit from nearly four kittens), and with another queen I had TWO emergency caesareans and a total of two live kittens. Cost nearly £1200 (total) which would be the profit from seven kittens. So this year evens it out a bit - so far, though earlier in the year I had one queen produce one dead kitten and since it needed manipulating out and she had an infection, that was another loss of around £50. I am expecting two more litters in just over a week's time and there is time for things to go wrong!

    These figures are using my own stud cat. If I had to go out to stud I could expect to pay £250 - £300 by the time blood tests and petrol were taken into account. I have purchased two studs of my own, they cost me £500 each so (if you ignore their food and vet bills and accommodation) they pay for themselves if they sire two litters. And I have two younger boys who I plan to use a couple of times. I would not have bought them in, but since I bred them I kept them, but that did of course mean I couldn't sell them.

    Of course you can't really say "if you ignore their food, vet bills and accommodation" for a stud, because you do have to pay for those things - one had his booster a few days ago, £37.22, and the last two stud pens I bought cost, including erection, around £600 and around £300 (the second was used). These pens are totally inadequate for permanent occupation by a stud, but I am lucky in that so far my three young boys live in the house permanently, and my older boy comes in most days which makes his need for better accommodation less urgent, but I will have to address it sooner or later as once my younger boys are a bit older they certainly won't all be able to be in the house together! O yes, and my kitten pen was just over £100.

    My husband is certainly convinced that I am making a huge loss, he moans about it on a regular basis!

    Liz
     
    #15 lizward, Jul 29, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2009
  16. xxSaffronxx

    xxSaffronxx PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    1,898
    Likes Received:
    24
    And people forget the other costs Liz - OK the vaccinations etc are "Direct Costs" for each litter, but there is the upkeep of the queens to produce this litter which is known as "Cost of Sales" which can include the queens food, vaccinations, annual health checks etc etc
     
  17. lizward

    lizward PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    6,023
    Likes Received:
    182
    O well, yes, but I was assuming I would be keeping the girls anyway regardless of whether I was a breeder.

    Liz
     
  18. andywest

    andywest PetForums Junior

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2008
    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    0
    Okay i've never really looked into breeding in any way so i am coming at this from a complete novice angle. But surely isn't that just the cost of having a cat?

    When my fiance and i decided we would get a cat we were looking online and were shocked by the cost of some cats, we had the money but we couldn't justify spending such large amounts of money on a pet.
     
  19. Saikou

    Saikou PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    2,992
    Likes Received:
    154
    No one ever seems to balk at the cost of a pedigree puppy and most of those seem to go for far more than kittens, yet the breeder keeps them for far less time 8 / 9weeks as opposed to 13 / 14 weeks, they do not have to be sold vaccinated, dog food is cheaper than equivalent cat food, litter sizes for most breeds seem to be considerably larger (based on comments from a friend who breeds dogs and cats). OK so your stud fee is probably double that of a cat, but all in all, far larger profit potential there.

    Its seems society in general will accept all things dog, but cats are second class citizens. Alot of vets poo poo breeding cats but do not bat an eye at breeding dogs :confused: :confused:
     
  20. xxSaffronxx

    xxSaffronxx PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    1,898
    Likes Received:
    24
    Maybe for some people yes - but my queens are fed on high quality cat food rather than felix & whiskers which costs a lot more
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice