[Sezzastar]

Really just after some advice about introducing a new dog into the pack.

We have 2 entire males already, a 3 year old leonberger Ozzy and an 11 month old merle collie Harley. Harley was introduced to Ozzy as a pup, we had no problems.

We have found another entire male 13 month old collie Charlie who we would like to introduce into our little family. He apparently gets on well with other dogs, loves cuddles, is not destructive. The signs are all right.

We are going to meet Charlie with our 2 on a local beach to see how they all get on. Harley I am guessing may have a little play with him, but Ozzy will be too busy marking to even bother, he was a rescue and did not have the best start in life, when we rescued him he didn't even know what a lead or a walk was, or even how to play.

Anyway we will see how this goes then maybe have him overnight or for a couple of days to see how it goes. Is there any advice from anyone that I could do which may help this process. The owner seems to think Charlie will fit right in and be submissive to the alpha male which is Ozzy, but you never know do you!!

I understand this may not be an easy process but it is not something we are going into lightly!!

 

[Sled dog hotel]

Really just after some advice about introducing a new dog into the pack.

We have 2 entire males already, a 3 year old leonberger Ozzy and an 11 month old merle collie Harley. Harley was introduced to Ozzy as a pup, we had no problems.

We have found another entire male 13 month old collie Charlie who we would like to introduce into our little family. He apparently gets on well with other dogs, loves cuddles, is not destructive. The signs are all right.

We are going to meet Charlie with our 2 on a local beach to see how they all get on. Harley I am guessing may have a little play with him, but Ozzy will be too busy marking to even bother, he was a rescue and did not have the best start in life, when we rescued him he didn't even know what a lead or a walk was, or even how to play.

Anyway we will see how this goes then maybe have him overnight or for a couple of days to see how it goes. Is there any advice from anyone that I could do which may help this process. The owner seems to think Charlie will fit right in and be submissive to the alpha male which is Ozzy, but you never know do you!!

I understand this may not be an easy process but it is not something we are going into lightly!!

As a 13month entire male he isnt going to have a puppy licence and is a young adult. Your doing the right thing letting them meet and play on neutral territory, but home turf can sometimes be a different thing. Ive had 3 adult females at one time introduced at various times, ages 4, 5 then a 15mth old.
The first two were already spayed before I got them from the rescue, the youngest wasnt so a simlar sort of situation although dont know if your other two are neutered or not? So could be a little more tricky if they are not and he is as well.

If dogs are ging to kick off and compete then the usual main triggers are, Food, toys, treats like chews, attention, confined spaces and times of hyper excitement like leads coming out for walks, visitors coming, and door bells ringing. So what i do when introducing and integrating them is to be wary of these triggers that can set them off and deal with them accordingly. When you bring a new dog in, often you dont also see their full personalities emerging until at least probably 2/3 weeks down the line sometimes even more, so those first few weeks especially you need to be careful, being over causious is better then being under at least until you know whats what and get them intergrated and fully accepted. Bringing a pup in is different to a sexually mature adolsecent or young adult, Older dogs tend to accept more from a pup in the main and wont accept so much off an older dog.

I always give them there forever place to eat as soon as they arrive. If you have baby gates then use those to separate them, give them a wide margin of space to eat, supervise and dont allow eyeing up each others bowls, approaching each others bowls even when empty, bowls up and gone before allowing them free access to each other as well. Be careful of dropped food, animal or human when they are all together, both going for a piece of dropped food can set off a squabble.

With toys, chews and treats, dont leave them lying about for the same reason, if you are giving them supervised only, make sure everyone has a wide margin of space, and again remove them when unattended or when they all start to lose interest.

Vying for attention can also cause squabbles with some dogs, so dont overfuss them especially the new one when the others are present.

Also watch them in confined spaces, like all trying to get out of a door together, narrow halls of places where they have to jump over each other or pass close too, that can set some dogs off, so just be aware of those situations.

Times of hyper excitement too like door bells ringing, visitors coming an leads coming out for walks, can hyper some dogs up, and in a heightened aroused state, grumbling and shoving can sometimes set off a squabble.

As said a lot may well be over cautious and may not be needed but it should avoid any possible problems that may set them off. A lot depends on the individual dogs and personalities and depending on what you have already and what he is like he could fit straight in its possible. But doesnt hurt.

 

[charlearose]

we have 3 male ddbs 3 years old one almost 2 in december and one almost 1 in december ( not entire though any of them)

At first they were all fine elder ddb a bit of a bully to younger one ( 2 years old ) but nothing major just him being the boss

They were fine for around 8 -10 months sharing a kennel ,walks ect then they had a few spats , then the spats got bigger , and then a major one which ended in a £700 vet bill and the bully dog worse off.
Its always been the elder one causing the problem the younger one is fine with him however the younger one has around 2 stone in weight and 3 inches in height so always come of the best in any situation

We were told to get rid of one - that wasnt an option as far as we were concerned We bought em so we deal with em ( imo)

So we separated them different areas of the garden separate kennels, not fed together and they are fine now

Then our youngest one who was 8 months at the time and is a bit of a bully as well started on the same dog *( 2 year old ) little spats, but nothing major and then when dh just took them out for a walk the youngest one attacked the older one, dh managed to separate them both even though the younger one kept trying to go back and bite the older one. So another trip to the vet and another £200 vet bill for stitches for dog number 2 ( who was in the first fight with eldest dog )

Again we didn't want to rehome either dog so we bought another kennel and more fences ( my garden looks like one of H.M Prisons ) and its working out fine
So another separate area in the garden and dogs are all fine now as long as they aren't walked together they are all quite happy in there own areas
they all share there kennels with another female dog or two so no issues there

Yet the dog thats been attacked twice gets on fine with all the other dogs and other male dogs that he mights
the youngest dog is fine with all other dogs and male dogs as well
the eldest dog isn't tend to bark at any dog male or female but when told to be quite sits down like a well behaved puppy

i have given up trying to figure out why /and who kicks it off my brain hurts to much from it

 

[Sezzastar]

Well we have the dog now. They all met yesterday on neutral ground and seemed alright. None of the dogs are neutered.

Brought The new dog Charlie in, he got on fine with our collie Harley who is near enough the same age. At the moment they are out in the garden together, Harley is showing signs of dominating the new dog. Humping him, tail up, almost 'stalking' him. They are having a little play about at times and tails are wagging.

The problem is with the alpha male, our leonberger Ozzy, who goes to sniff the new dog whom then barks/growls at him (at one point he nipped Ozzy), this starts Ozzy off and Ozzy bring aggressive is not very nice. Hes usually so soppy. But anyway I understand this is his house and hes boss.

So the thing is what to do now? Let Ozzy put him in his place? I am worried the new dog will nip him again and a bite from Ozzy would cause serious damage. We have removed triggers such as all toys and food etc. The new dog was brought up alone and gets very possessive over his toys/balls especially.

I am really hoping this will work as we really love the new dog, hes gorgeous and so cuddly.:frown2:

 

[PennyGC]

you have a problem with the guarding of toys which needs to be addressed, he also sounds as though he's not going to back down, which is a problem as your older dog believes he's the boss.. I'm also worried about the 'tail wagging' with the two collies as this isn't a sign of play, but of stress and being unsure.

I personally think that you're going to have to work very hard to get the three to settle, particularly as the new guy means all the toys etc are put away and he's being naughty with the resident top dog.... I think you should consult a good behaviourist who'll be able to observe their interaction and advise accordingly, but if you stop your older guy laying down the law it will give rise to resentment and potentially a fight later... if he would use minimum force to lay down the law it would help....

 

[Sezzastar]

you have a problem with the guarding of toys which needs to be addressed, he also sounds as though he's not going to back down, which is a problem as your older dog believes he's the boss.. I'm also worried about the 'tail wagging' with the two collies as this isn't a sign of play, but of stress and being unsure.

I personally think that you're going to have to work very hard to get the three to settle, particularly as the new guy means all the toys etc are put away and he's being naughty with the resident top dog.... I think you should consult a good behaviourist who'll be able to observe their interaction and advise accordingly, but if you stop your older guy laying down the law it will give rise to resentment and potentially a fight later... if he would use minimum force to lay down the law it would help....

Yes I agree with the toy problem, all the toys have been put away. I have been researching around and what we can do. Found out it is best to have the new dog in a crate and the other 2 having the run of the house for a while. Which we have done, My collie keeps going up to the crate and 'whinging' while sniffing the new dog whom then is growling a bit back. But what to do next?!

I also agree that we will have to work hard to get the 3 to settle. I have seen the older dog be aggressive to my mums blue merle collie before and it was very nasty but he did not harm him, just warn him. But I am worried he may mistakenly harm the new dog.

I dont just want to throw them all in the back garden and let them get on with it. I understand Ozzy is the top dog and needs to show the new dog he is the alpha male..

 

[Sezzastar]

There is a really good video on youtube where a guy with 3 GDs introduces another dog into the pack. We have copied that with my OH being the pack leader and it is going well so far. So happy!!! But the real test will be later when they are indoors. We will most probably separate them for the first few nights/weeks and take it slow.

Still keeping the toys away and also have given Charlie the new dog a separate eating and bed space in the room. Fingers crossed.

I am just going to have a look now for food for charlie as he is on Purina Pro Plan Sensitive as he has flaky skin and is quite itchy. So another dog with allergies it looks like.

 

[Sled dog hotel]

Yes I agree with the toy problem, all the toys have been put away. I have been researching around and what we can do. Found out it is best to have the new dog in a crate and the other 2 having the run of the house for a while. Which we have done, My collie keeps going up to the crate and 'whinging' while sniffing the new dog whom then is growling a bit back. But what to do next?!

I also agree that we will have to work hard to get the 3 to settle. I have seen the older dog be aggressive to my mums blue merle collie before and it was very nasty but he did not harm him, just warn him. But I am worried he may mistakenly harm the new dog.

I dont just want to throw them all in the back garden and let them get on with it. I understand Ozzy is the top dog and needs to show the new dog he is the alpha male..

A good way to get them used to each other is walking and exercise, if there is two of you that means they are spending time on neutral territory and can get used to being altogether without stresses and strains of the new one being brought into another packs territory, and the existing ones less likely to exhibit any territorial behaviour, so thats an important part of the integration.

If the new one is happy and relaxed in a crate then thats another safe way to initially getting them to share space on home turf without any worries. Once they get a bit more used to him being around with the pack walks and having him in communal areas at home, another good step is to have them all on lead and getting them to relax in the same communal areas. Obviously still avoiding all the known triggers that can set dogs off competing and squabbling still.

Then you can do supervise them being together. Separating if you do have to go our or leave them unattended obviously. You do also need a decent crate as well, the light weight flimsier ones especially with larger dogs, with enough barging and shoving and stress on them can collapse and the doors can be bent and pushed open if there is enough stress on them. Ive got several but also have a heavy duty one as well in case its ever needed and left over from puppy days.

 

[Sezzastar]

We have only one crate at the moment, a heavy duty one which is Harleys 'bed', as he chews things up at night that is where he sleeps. He would need to stay in there at night as he does tend to pick things up and chew them up if we are not there for long periods.

The new dog I was going to have him have the run of the hallway/kitchen and Ozzy could have the run of the lounge/garden. As we usually tend to leave the back door open so he can come and go as he pleases, being a leo he gets quite hot and prefers outside mainly but if it rains he can come in.

Would you recommend getting a second crate to house the new dog? He is not crate trained as we seen if he would go into Harley's crate but he was not too keen. The dog has been spoiled- on his own and getting the full attention, countless toys, allowed the run of the whole house (even upstairs), allowed on the sofas!! Hes a very stubborn dog also, will need some training!!!!

 

[goodvic2]

we have 3 male ddbs 3 years old one almost 2 in december and one almost 1 in december ( not entire though any of them)

At first they were all fine elder ddb a bit of a bully to younger one ( 2 years old ) but nothing major just him being the boss

They were fine for around 8 -10 months sharing a kennel ,walks ect then they had a few spats , then the spats got bigger , and then a major one which ended in a £700 vet bill and the bully dog worse off.
Its always been the elder one causing the problem the younger one is fine with him however the younger one has around 2 stone in weight and 3 inches in height so always come of the best in any situation

We were told to get rid of one - that wasnt an option as far as we were concerned We bought em so we deal with em ( imo)

So we separated them different areas of the garden separate kennels, not fed together and they are fine now

Then our youngest one who was 8 months at the time and is a bit of a bully as well started on the same dog *( 2 year old ) little spats, but nothing major and then when dh just took them out for a walk the youngest one attacked the older one, dh managed to separate them both even though the younger one kept trying to go back and bite the older one. So another trip to the vet and another £200 vet bill for stitches for dog number 2 ( who was in the first fight with eldest dog )

Again we didn't want to rehome either dog so we bought another kennel and more fences ( my garden looks like one of H.M Prisons ) and its working out fine
So another separate area in the garden and dogs are all fine now as long as they aren't walked together they are all quite happy in there own areas
they all share there kennels with another female dog or two so no issues there

Yet the dog thats been attacked twice gets on fine with all the other dogs and other male dogs that he mights
the youngest dog is fine with all other dogs and male dogs as well
the eldest dog isn't tend to bark at any dog male or female but when told to be quite sits down like a well behaved puppy

i have given up trying to figure out why /and who kicks it off my brain hurts to much from it

Are your dogs neutered?

 

[goodvic2]

A pack of entire dogs sends shivers down my spine.

The single biggest cause of aggression is same sex when they are entire.

I Wish you all the best but i have heard of far to many fights in this situation.

 

[Sled dog hotel]

We have only one crate at the moment, a heavy duty one which is Harleys 'bed', as he chews things up at night that is where he sleeps. He would need to stay in there at night as he does tend to pick things up and chew them up if we are not there for long periods.

The new dog I was going to have him have the run of the hallway/kitchen and Ozzy could have the run of the lounge/garden. As we usually tend to leave the back door open so he can come and go as he pleases, being a leo he gets quite hot and prefers outside mainly but if it rains he can come in.

Would you recommend getting a second crate to house the new dog? He is not crate trained as we seen if he would go into Harley's crate but he was not too keen. The dog has been spoiled- on his own and getting the full attention, countless toys, allowed the run of the whole house (even upstairs), allowed on the sofas!! Hes a very stubborn dog also, will need some training!!!!

I wouldnt let him go in Harleys crate, especially if its harleys bed, Harley could possibly take umbridge if its his own personal space and stuff in there, so that could kick off a squabble.

If the new one was crate trained already and relaxed in a crate then it would be a whole lot easier, However if he hasnt been on a crate before you would need to crate train him, and as the usual way means toys and treats to get him to view it as a fun place and inititally leaving the door open, dont know how you would manage it with the others especially if he is possessive of toys anyway.

Try doing what you were going to do at the moment with isolating him in part of the house and see how it goes.

 

[lipsthefish]

A pack of entire dogs sends shivers down my spine.

Me too We have our hairy lodger staying at the moment, he is entire and so is Alfie, they are pretty much fine now as Jack has been coming for months but in the beginning there were quite a few spats, mostly just handbags, no real biting and mainly when visitors came in, they are both tiny dogs though so easy to just pick them up, I know for certain I couldn't cope if they were big dogs.

 

[Sezzastar]

Well, so far so good.

All dogs getting on fine. All been fed in separate places, no fighting. My parents came round and separated the new dog with the other 2 to introduce him to them first so as to avoid any bad triggers. Then let the other 2 in which went fine apart from the 2 collies having a little squabble over attention. New dog seems to be very possessive, I think this is because he has been an only dog and not used to sharing, he is used to having all the attention so that will have to change. Also he jumps on the sofa when possible and also runs upstairs and on the bed, signs of dominance again so will have to put a stop to that too.

Early days yet, we will see how the night goes.

The reason he was re homed was because the couple already have 3 children (one of which has autism) and another on the way, the lady thinks she will find it hard to keep up with Charlie's exercise. I tend to think there is something they are not telling us. He was put outside alone for a bit earlier after being aggressive and was a bit howly so whether he is a barker we are not sure (but were told no) and also were told he is not destructive.

Bit worried about his poo, he has had 3 small ones and all very yellow in colour. Maybe this is just anxiety?

 

[sid&kira]

Sorry but the dog isnt showing signs of dominance! All my sibes sleep on the sofa, and used to sleep on the bed before i got pregnant. They are all well behaved, friendly dogs who do as they're told, when they're told.

The dog isnt dominant, hes untrained. Likely his previous owners didnt mind him on furniture so as far as hes concerned its ok. If you dont want him up there then you need to train him, not label him as dominant.

 

[Sezzastar]

Sorry but the dog isnt showing signs of dominance! All my sibes sleep on the sofa, and used to sleep on the bed before i got pregnant. They are all well behaved, friendly dogs who do as they're told, when they're told.

The dog isnt dominant, hes untrained. Likely his previous owners didnt mind him on furniture so as far as hes concerned its ok. If you dont want him up there then you need to train him, not label him as dominant.

I was watching a video earlier on aggressive dogs and it claimed that dogs on sofas are showing signs of dominance.

Also found " Getting on furniture or the bed without permission. If you allow your dog to get on the furniture or the bed, it’s important that you teach your dog that he is only allowed to do so when he has your permission. If he gets up on furniture or the bed whenever he wants, he is displaying dominant behavior and putting you in a subordinate position."

Sorry, but he IS dominant. He shows other signs too. And yes I will train him not to go on the sofa like my other 2. And also not to go upstairs and jump on the bed!

 

[Sled dog hotel]

Well, so far so good.

All dogs getting on fine. All been fed in separate places, no fighting. My parents came round and separated the new dog with the other 2 to introduce him to them first so as to avoid any bad triggers. Then let the other 2 in which went fine apart from the 2 collies having a little squabble over attention. New dog seems to be very possessive, I think this is because he has been an only dog and not used to sharing, he is used to having all the attention so that will have to change. Also he jumps on the sofa when possible and also runs upstairs and on the bed, signs of dominance again so will have to put a stop to that too.

Early days yet, we will see how the night goes.

The reason he was re homed was because the couple already have 3 children (one of which has autism) and another on the way, the lady thinks she will find it hard to keep up with Charlie's exercise. I tend to think there is something they are not telling us. He was put outside alone for a bit earlier after being aggressive and was a bit howly so whether he is a barker we are not sure (but were told no) and also were told he is not destructive.

Bit worried about his poo, he has had 3 small ones and all very yellow in colour. Maybe this is just anxiety?

Wanting to get on the sofa and beds is just because he has likely been allowed to do it so doesnt know any different, its just a matter or retraining him if its not accetable to you.

Just keep a watch on his toileting, dogs can get stressed and it can cause a bit of stomach upset in the first few days, glad though that everythings going well so far.

If you shut out the other two and let him in first then that may have not been the best idea too be honest, attention seeking is one of the triggers to set dogs off, so the fact that he was let in first and had attention might have also been the reason your other one was a little put out perhaps. My friend had a collie with her pack of sibes and I know hers loved attention and could sometimes push her way in and cause a bit of friction because of the behaviour if you were not careful, however you could turn it to your advantage by verbally praising them which they also seem to thrieve on too, for calm relaxed behaviour together and getting on to re-enforce that.

 

[Sezzastar]

Wanting to get on the sofa and beds is just because he has likely been allowed to do it so doesnt know any different, its just a matter or retraining him if its not accetable to you.

Just keep a watch on his toileting, dogs can get stressed and it can cause a bit of stomach upset in the first few days, glad though that everythings going well so far.

If you shut out the other two and let him in first then that may have not been the best idea too be honest, attention seeking is one of the triggers to set dogs off, so the fact that he was let in first and had attention might have also been the reason your other one was a little put out perhaps. My friend had a collie with her pack of sibes and I know hers loved attention and could sometimes push her way in and cause a bit of friction because of the behaviour if you were not careful, however you could turn it to your advantage by verbally praising them which they also seem to thrieve on too, for calm relaxed behaviour together and getting on to re-enforce that.

Strange because he was not even allowed upstairs in his old house and neither on the sofas so makes me think he is trying to show dominance home here.

I realise that shutting the other 2 out was not a good idea but then I also thought that the trigger point of door bell ringing and visitors coming in would spark off a fight between them all to get to the visitors first. So i felt I couldnt win either way. It was only a minor squabble, to be honest it was the new one that started it all off, he does seem very possessive over things that are his and also attention.

I do see how I must treat them all equal and give plenty of praise for good behaviour.

Thankyou for all your answers, they are greatly appreciated.

 

[sid&kira]

I was watching a video earlier on aggressive dogs and it claimed that dogs on sofas are showing signs of dominance.

Also found " Getting on furniture or the bed without permission. If you allow your dog to get on the furniture or the bed, it’s important that you teach your dog that he is only allowed to do so when he has your permission. If he gets up on furniture or the bed whenever he wants, he is displaying dominant behavior and putting you in a subordinate position."

Sorry, but he IS dominant. He shows other signs too. And yes I will train him not to go on the sofa like my other 2. And also not to go upstairs and jump on the bed!

2 outdated sources, why not look up some victoria stillwell? And also google search 'outdated dominance theory'. Its an outdated belief and form of training, no good trainer believes in it anymore.

as i said, my dogs get on the sofas, they lay on my laps and one even sits on my OHs shoulder, according to the dominance theory we should pin her to the ground until she submits, like an alpha wolf, this will make her respect us.

Err no, it will make her nervous of us, instead we give her a fuss (because we dont mind) and when we want her to get down we tell her to, and she does, she is not dominating us!

The dominance theory is based on one pack if wolves studied in captivity, the woves were a manmade pack (i.e not a pack that would form in the wild) these wolves pinned each other to the ground. This doesnt happen in the wild. Also, dogs are NOT wolves, their behaviour is a lot different. Dogs also know that you arent a dog

Sorry but i think you need to do some research into the dominance theory and dog behaviouur

 

[Sled dog hotel]

Strange because he was not even allowed upstairs in his old house and neither on the sofas so makes me think he is trying to show dominance home here.

I realise that shutting the other 2 out was not a good idea but then I also thought that the trigger point of door bell ringing and visitors coming in would spark off a fight between them all to get to the visitors first. So i felt I couldnt win either way. It was only a minor squabble, to be honest it was the new one that started it all off, he does seem very possessive over things that are his and also attention.

I do see how I must treat them all equal and give plenty of praise for good behaviour.

Thankyou for all your answers, they are greatly appreciated.

You deffinately did right, separating them with the door bell ringing and avoiding the hyper excitement of all of them trying to get attention at once causing competition and possible squabbles. I meant in the order of things, shutting them out and bringing him in first, it might have been better the other way around letting them say hello and getting it out their system first and maybe then introducing him maybe even on lead so you have more control at first rather then having them all free roaming that was all.