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Silent Siamese Please?

Discussion in 'Cat Chat' started by OnceLoved, Sep 18, 2019.


  1. OnceLoved

    OnceLoved PetForums Newbie

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    I know it’s all about the individual, right? Some are more talkative than others. I love their personality and graceful beauty. Do you think there is a “Siamese mix” I can try at the shelter that might be less vocal based on coat coloring? Say, Siamese with tabby? Or lighter color Siamese may mean diluted genes? (I know there’s flame point though etc). Thanks in advance!
     

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  2. Rufus15

    Rufus15 PetForums VIP

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    No. Colouring has nothing to do with breed traits
     
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  3. spotty cats

    spotty cats PetForums VIP

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    The dilute colours (blue, lilac, cream, fawn) don’t dilute the genes. They’re still pedigree Siamese (when from a registered breeder).
    Tabby is a coat pattern, not a breed itself. Flame is (usually) an American term for red, it’s not a dilute colour.

    You will likely find shelters label anything colourpoint as Siamese Mix, however the CP gene is well spread among moggies and doesn’t indicate any pedigree breed ancestry.

    The vocalness of Siamese are part of their charm for most owners.
     
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  4. Bertie'sMum

    Bertie'sMum Obedient Cat Slave

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    I'm pretty sure that a "silent" Siamese is a contradiction in terms :rolleyes:
     
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  5. OnceLoved

    OnceLoved PetForums Newbie

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    I unfortunately have a sensory disorder and need things very quiet. I’ve had a Siamese mix before, only meowed when playing!
    No guarantee in life I suppose... thanks for the advice.
     
  6. lymorelynn

    lymorelynn UN Peacekeeper in training
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    It really is down to their personality. My girls are reasonably quiet - unless calling, but that's another matter altogether.
     
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  7. Rufus15

    Rufus15 PetForums VIP

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    I would try a different breed then. I have Maine Coons and they're generally quite quiet (apart from my special needs boy) and therefore don't affect my sensory processing disorder. BSH are also a quiet breed, as are most of the semi longhair breeds and Persians
     
  8. lymorelynn

    lymorelynn UN Peacekeeper in training
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    BSH and Persians are bred in colour points - not the graceful looks but quiet compared with Siamese. You could look at Ragdolls or Birmans too.
     
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  9. Treaclesmum

    Treaclesmum PetForums VIP

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    Actually it can have a connection in some breeds.

    In BSH, silver tabbies are said to be the most active and lively of all the colours, with blue being the quietest. This is because, in order to create the silver tabby and breed the colour in, the BSH was crossed with the American Shorthair which is more lively and active. I don't know if anything similar occurred in other breeds like Siamese, but in some breeds you will find slight personality differences based on their colouring or the colouring in their parents bloodline.
     
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  10. Rufus15

    Rufus15 PetForums VIP

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    That's not how it works at all. ASH have not been a permissible outcross in BSH for many years, therefore the more outgoing personality wouldn't be down to Ash being as modern BSH are so far away from the original outcross generations.

    Whilst breeds have specific personality traits, it's in no way related to colour. Even things like "naughty tortie" isn't always correct. Genes are for colour and personality are completely separate genetic material.
     
  11. carly87

    carly87 PetForums VIP

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    Sorry, but I don't agree. In order to create the colour, the silvers would have taken some of the genes from the ASH. It doesn't matter how long ago the outcross was used. The genetic material remains in part, otherwise the colour would also die out. Activity levels/traits are somewhat, but not totally, dictated by genetic make up, hence the difference in activity levels between Bengals and Persians for example. Personality/traits can certainly be heavily, heavily influenced by nurture, but to deny genetic involvement shows little understanding of how genetics and inheritance works I'm afraid.
     
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  12. Rufus15

    Rufus15 PetForums VIP

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    You missed a key part. The genes for colour and the genes for personality are not even on the same locus. Passing on both a colour gene and a personality gene at the same time is chance and not a given. I do not deny personality is passed on genetically, however colour has no influence on personality.

    By your logic, every breed that has the CP gene would be as chatty as a Siamese and that is not the case in reality.
     
    #12 Rufus15, Sep 18, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  13. Summercat

    Summercat PetForums VIP

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    I have to agree with Carly on this.
    When you mix cats, you are mixing various genes and not only genes for color are passed. Your goal may be color but that does not mean the rest of the cats DNA is not passed on in the mixing. When you mix you get a mix. You can later dilute that mix but it is still there.

    Color point cats in the West originated from Siamese and as such, all the 'moggies' with color points have it in their ancestry, same as all breed cats with color-points. Burmese are for example, mixed with Siamese.
    Those Siamese genes got around ;) not just in moggies but in many breeds.
     
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  14. Jesthar

    Jesthar PetForums VIP

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    But by that logic, all Siamese would be chatty - and we've already had input from experienced Siamese slaves that this isn't always the case. There are always exceptions to any generalisatiion, be it breed or colour.

    So, generally speaking a colourpoint cat will be more chatty than a non-colourpoint.
    Generally speaking a tortie will be a bigger pain in the butt than a non-tortie (Lori, I'm looking at you, you food bowl smasher!)
    Generally speaking a BSH will be a lie-alongsise you cat, rather than a lap cat
    etc.
     
  15. carly87

    carly87 PetForums VIP

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    So, Rufas, do you choose what loci your outcross is allowed to submit to the mating when you mate? Sadly, you don't. They don't just pass on colour. They pass half of their genetic make up, including personality traits. This can certainly be watered down by mating and remating to more placid/breed typical animals, but it doesn't go away. Often, colour, whilst certainly not a predictor, can be an indicator of personality, and to deny this is ludicrous.
     
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  16. Rufus15

    Rufus15 PetForums VIP

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    Ok, let's be clear here as it's very obvious that what I've said is being taken out of context.

    Genes for colour and genes for personality are not the same thing, nor are they in any way related.

    Having a cross is not a guarantee of diluted genes (as per the OP).

    Outcrossing over a number of generations does not mean every colourpoint of that breed will have Siamese traits. Case in point, Ragdoll. Case in point CP BSH.

    At no point have I suggested anything otherwise.

    The OP asked if certain colours had more or less behaviours typical of a Siamese. The answer is no, because there are no colour-based personality traits, the personality traits passed on are incidental and not guaranteed.

    Anyone who has a modicum of genetics knowledge is aware of gene chance, something which does not apply to colours as they are set and finite. Personality is made up of numerous genes interacting with each other on many levels to create something complex and infinite.
     
  17. carly87

    carly87 PetForums VIP

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    Rufas, you state:
    "That's not how it works at all. ASH have not been a permissible outcross in BSH for many years, therefore the more outgoing personality wouldn't be down to Ash being as modern BSH are so far away from the original outcross generations."
    Here' you're very clearly stating that any personality traits would not be down to the ASH cross. You are, in this way, stating that the ASH could not have contributed any genetic matterial to personality formation. However, later on you state that personality is a polygenetic mixture. Please could you therefore explain why the ASH would have had no genetic input into the breed colours it was outcrossed with to make? I accept that the impact of the outcross would be tempered by the dominant breed traits, had those outcross colours been exclusively mated with breed typical cats. However, if the new colour was put back to the new colour to increase the chances of getting said new colour in a litter, then the impact wouldn't be lessened as you are injecting the same ASH genetic matterial back into the mix. In this way, colour can have an admittedly loose link with personality in some instances.

    "Passing on both a colour gene and a personality gene at the same time is chance and not a given."
    This is also incorrect. Each mating will pass on a colour gene, and a myriad of the polygenes which indicate the baseline for personality. Therefore, colour and personality are actually passed on at the same time. Again, if you only mate certain colours together which are prone to certain personality types then you are using the polygenes of that personality type, making it more likely that that will be produced in future litters.

    Breeding sets personality type as much as it sets colour quality. We know this, which is why breeders select for certain temperaments etc. Breeders are selective about colour mating, or at least most are, and often work with certain colours over others, meaning that as well as setting the colour, they are setting hte personality polygenes along with this colour.

    Colour and personality are not the same gene, no, but nor are colour and bone structure. Yet, silver Selkirks are much finer boned than their counterparts. Colour isn't related to anything other than colour, yet, when you breed certain crosses, certain colours and certain temperaments, you will eventually set an over all type which will breed true, as long as those combinations aren't diluted too much.

    I will accept that this doesn't apply in the general moggy population as they are not selectively bred, but to say that colour is not related at all is very short sighted, and does not indicate a wider understanding of how selective breeding influences the whole cat, genetic chance or not. Genetic chance does not come into play so much if the chance of an outsider gene has been removed by selective breeding.
     
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  18. carly87

    carly87 PetForums VIP

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    Apologies for the spelling error on your name by the way.
     
  19. Treaclesmum

    Treaclesmum PetForums VIP

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    Very good points @carly87
    The only time I would say that colour is not connected to breed traits is when talking about moggies. Some people seem to think that any cat of a certain colour (such as Blue for example), must be a specific breed, like British or Russian, when in fact there are many blue moggies out there as well. Many people don't realise that breed tells you more about personality than it does about colour, as there are cats of most colours to be found in many breeds.

    But in talking about selective breeding, as with pedigrees, then yes indeed colour and breed traits are connected :)
     
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  20. Rufus15

    Rufus15 PetForums VIP

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    No, I haven't said this at all. I'm saying that the ASH personality that inevitably was injected is not a dominant gene trait so the personality genes will be diluted so far down the generations. You don't get silver BSH that exclusively have the personality of an ASH. They have a mixture of all of the cats in their lineage, irrespective of colour.


    Again, you're twisting what I've said. I'm not sure if you're being obtuse on purpose or if it's your general state. Of course both colour and personality are passed on together, specific personality genes are not. So, for illustration, a black cat does not always pass on a gene of shyness, for example. Personality gene inheritance is random. Colour is not.


    Breeders should be using a variety of personality irrespective of colour. Most breeders I know will choose a cat with a better personality for breeding over their favoured colour. Breeders who only work with one colour often become a cropper as they're genetically limited and this is evidenced in the offspring they produce.


    Silver is an inhibitor, not a colour, and breeders that have worked with silver over a number of years find that their silver to silver lines are finer boned, smaller, and finer furred. That's across all breeds, not just Selkirks, and that's why those breeders with silver programmes always have a handful of non-silver cats to ensure fine boning, a smaller size, and finer fur is bred out. Silver is a law unto itself and has been evidenced to affect bone and fur structure.
     
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