Welcome to PF and to your adorable kittens They look as if they are the older style of Siamese which we don't see so much in the UK. My own are something between that style and the more modern, extreme with wider placed ears.
I don't know the registration processes in Canada but assume your two are registered for breeding. Siamese can indeed mature early - one of my girls started calling at 4 1/2 months An adult male will need at least three queens to keep him happy throughout the year so you may have to think about bringing in girls from outside. If you do you will need to be sure that they are free from disease, especially FeLV and FIV - in the UK a snap test is usually required 24 hours before queens go to stud.
Good luck with your breeding programme :thumbup1:

 

I don't want to come across negative but where did you buy these kittens from?

They are absolutely, utterly gorgeous :001_wub:
But I am not convinced they are pure Siamese.
Their coat for a start looks quite plush for Siamese?

Do you have their family trees? What registry are they with?
Also, what is your purpose for breeding?
Because if it's for conformation it can be difficult to get a real feel of their quality until they mature a bit.
As adults, they might not complement each other.

 

I don't want to come across negative but where did you buy these kittens from?

They are absolutely, utterly gorgeous :001_wub:
But I am not convinced they are pure Siamese.
Their coat for a start looks quite plush for Siamese?

Do you have their family trees? What registry are they with?
Also, what is your purpose for breeding?
Because if it's for conformation it can be difficult to get a real feel of their quality until they mature a bit.
As adults, they might not complement each other.

I think being in a colder climate might have a lot to do with their thicker coats and they look like pure Siamese to me, the old apple head style.

Gorgeous kitties

 

Thank-you! Yes, they are very precious - very sweet personalities too. No, I actually don't have papers - I would definitely like to get into registered breeding at some point though. These ones were sold to me without papers, however I did see the parents.

Yes, they are pure - they definitely have a heavier coat right now it being winter. It gets crazy cold here, so it is good the heater keeps their house warm!

 

That's true, I didn't consider that. The temperature will affect the points also.

 

If all goes well I would like to add another female or two, but I want to make sure everything is going well and there are no problems that I can't handle. There shouldn't be, but I want to go slow so if I absolutely needed to I could just get them fixed. I just don't want to be in over my head since I am just starting out.

 

Thank-you! Yes, they are very precious - very sweet personalities too. No, I actually don't have papers - I would definitely like to get into registered breeding at some point though. These ones were sold to me without papers, however I did see the parents.

Yes, they are pure - they definitely have a heavier coat right now it being winter. It gets crazy cold here, so it is good the heater keeps their house warm!

If your going to do breeding 'the right way' you will definitely need papers.
Don't underestimate the importance of papers, for a start, it allows you to research the family and avoid breeding in cosmetic or physical faults and diseases.
Faults can skip generations, just because the grandparents look like excellent examples, that doesn't mean their grandkittens will!
It also ensures you don't accidently breed related cats.
Additionally, a high quality Tom or Queen owner will insist on papers, without them, you can only breed to other unregistered cats which isn't advisable.
Papers are also useful for buyers, lots of prospective buyers will insist on them.

They will need health testing also, don't rely on a vet check.
All pedigree breeds have a number of genetic conditions that they may not show symptoms of but can pass onto their kittens, they must be screened for these diseases.

 

Thank-you! Yes, they are very precious - very sweet personalities too. No, I actually don't have papers - I would definitely like to get into registered breeding at some point though. These ones were sold to me without papers, however I did see the parents.

Yes, they are pure - they definitely have a heavier coat right now it being winter. It gets crazy cold here, so it is good the heater keeps their house warm!

In the UK this type of breeding is very much frowned on and no one with registered queens would go to an unregistered stud - and vice versa, a stud owner would not take in an unregistered queen.

 

And to answer Sparkle's question - I am breeding for pet kittens, not so much for confirmation. I plan to screen each and every buyer carefully as I have gotten good at doing. I want the little ones to only go to the best of homes. I plan to keep the kittens till at least 9-10 weeks, but I have read longer is preferred so I will probably keep them longer so they have the best start possible.

 

Pet kittens should still be from papered parents so that you avoid breeding related cats.
They must be screened also for genetic disease.
This is expensive.
The kittens should be staying until 12 weeks old.

 

Yes, you all make very good points. I don't think every cat bred necessarily has to be show quality however, and I certainly do not plan to "pump out kittens" for profit. That is just wrong. My cats get vet care, a raw and canned diet and plenty of pampering. I only want the best for them.

I plan to breed these cats sensibly and I definitely would want to retire Keira as early as is necessary for her health and well being.

 

12 weeks makes sense - I have heard some keep them till 16 weeks and I think that can be a little excessive.

 

Sorry, but this "I am not breeding for show quality" mentality is quite same as the "I only want a pet kitten of a certain breed, so I don't need the papers" pet buyer mentality. Not a fan. How do you know you are breeding from healthy, unrelated parents? It's not okay to breed from unregistered cats.

 

Yes, you all make very good points. I don't think every cat bred necessarily has to be show quality however, and I certainly do not plan to "pump out kittens" for profit. That is just wrong. My cats get vet care, a raw and canned diet and plenty of pampering. I only want the best for them.

I plan to breed these cats sensibly and I definitely would want to retire Keira as early as is necessary for her health and well being.

With respect, without papers you cannot breed sensibly.

Without papers, you wont know if the cat you breed your cat to is actually it's sibling - that could cause serious problems for the resultant kittens.

Without papers, you won't know if one of the cats has a relative somewhere in their history with a problem that cannot be screened for, epilepsy for example.
If they do, you could produce kittens that will go on to be epileptic or whatever other problems are in the line.

Without papers, you cannot research the breeders of the relatives and get a feel for the temperaments of their cats.
Temperament is partly environmental and partly genetic.
Siamese are prone to certain behavioural problems, like wool sucking which sounds benign but can actually be really serious.

 

Yes, you all make very good points. I don't think every cat bred necessarily has to be show quality however, and I certainly do not plan to "pump out kittens" for profit. That is just wrong. My cats get vet care, a raw and canned diet and plenty of pampering. I only want the best for them.

I plan to breed these cats sensibly and I definitely would want to retire Keira as early as is necessary for her health and well being.

Not all kittens from any mating will be show quality and the majority of kitten buyers are not interested in showing but that doesn't mean that a breeder shouldn't be doing all within their power to produce kittens of the best standard as they can.
And Sparkles is right - without the proper paperwork you can't know if your cats are related to any others you might buy. You can't even know their relationship to each other especially if they came from the same breeder. That's why breeding without the proper registration papers is frowned on here - I doubt that it's any different in other countries.
I would be the last to want to deter anyone who wanted to breed - we all have to start somewhere but that somewhere should be the best place possible ... properly registered, health checked cats with the help of their breeder as a mentor

 

I do see the point of registered breeding, and I would like to do that at some point definitely. I do know these two are not related, as I saw the parents - so certainly not siblings! The breeders of Alaska had both the mother and father on site. I am going to make sure I know what I need to get done to ensure their health before breeding for sure. I am glad to have a good vet to work with especially for this. I trust
that he knows what he is doing and have not had bad experiences there at all.

 

And yes, they definitely came from completely different breeders! Definitely no inbreeding there.

 

What you saw were four Siamese cats.
Without papers you don't know that they are the parents.

What colour were Alaskas parents and what colour were Kiera's parents?
you would be amazed the lengths some deceitful people go to.

How can you be sure that Alaska or Kiera's fathers have never been used at stud by other breeders?

How can you be sure that none of the kittens ever produced by Alaskas parents or Kiera's parents have been bred by others?
I would imagine that your kittens are not the result of single lone litter.

Without DNA testing them, you actually only have the word of the people you bought them from that they do not share any close relatives.

Your vet won't be able to do the necessary tests.
Your Siamese will need to be tested for progressive retinal atrophy (pra), unless your vet happens to be a registered opthamologist, he can't do this for you.
Your cats will need to be screened for other diseases too, PRA is just one disease that Siamese are prone to.

 

And yes, they definitely came from completely different breeders! Definitely no inbreeding there.

You actually don't know how closely related they are without their correct pedigrees. Although they are from different breeders, their cats might be more closely related than you think. I got back at least 8 generations to find out how inbred the kittens from a mating will be. With Lola it is not obvious from the 4-generation pedigree of her kittens that her father is also her grandfather. If you have a kitten with that sort of pedigree she MUST go to an outcross, not a related male.

I don't understand why you want to start breeding with unregistered cats producing unregistered kittens - it's as much work, time & cost as breeding kittens you can register.

I am also dubious about those kitten's coats - they look far, far too long. At first I thought they were Balinese, the semi-longhair version. They shouldn't be living anywhere cold enough to make their coats long (as in they should be in heated accommodation).

I don't think every cat bred necessarily has to be show quality however, and I certainly do not plan to "pump out kittens" for profit. That is just wrong. My cats get vet care, a raw and canned diet and plenty of pampering. I only want the best for them.

If you manage to produce a litter that are all show quality you will be very, very lucky. And if you breed well - kittens go at 12+, vaccinated, wormed & neutered - you will only make a small profit with a big trouble-free litter.

I feel you should neuter these two and start over with one registered for breeding female, and take her to someone else's stud. If you use the boy as a stud you will not be able to use him with any of his daughters plus you will have to have a decent stud house for him, and be able to provide him with enough 'work' to keep him happy. Keeping a stud isn't for the faint-hearted and certainly isn't for the novice which is what you are.

 

<snip>
Your Siamese will need to be tested for progressive retinal atrophy (pra), unless your vet happens to be a registered opthamologist, he can't do this for you.
Your cats will need to be screened for other diseases too, PRA is just one disease that Siamese are prone to.

PRA is the only disease Siamese in the UK are tested for, it's the only disease Langford suggest Siamese are tested for, and it's easily done by taking a check swab and posting it off to Langford. They will accept swabs from most of the world.

I strongly recommend you test both kittens if you do continue to breed them.

Care to suggest what other diseases Siamese are prone to, that is diseases which can be tested for?

 

Thank-you for the information, I really appreciate it! I have done reading on PRA - I will have to continue reading on other genetic tests that are wise to get done on them.

And you are right - I don't have absolute proof of parentage. However, Alaska came from an older couple who had two Siamese cats they bred occasionally as a hobby. The mum was seal point and the dad a chocolate point. Keira's mom was blue point, not sure about her dad.

In the parentage I agree I take a certain amount of risk, but after talking to the breeders and finding out the info I did I feel it is very small risk.

 

Thank-you for the information, I really appreciate it! I have done reading on PRA - I will have to continue reading on other genetic tests that are wise to get done on them.

And you are right - I don't have absolute proof of parentage. However, Alaska came from an older couple who had two Siamese cats they bred occasionally as a hobby. The mum was seal point and the dad a chocolate point. Keira's mom was blue point, not sure about her dad.

In the parentage I agree I take a certain amount of risk, but after talking to the breeders and finding out the info I did I feel it is very small risk.

Why? Why breed from cats of unknown (as in no pedigree) parentage when it's just as little (or much) hard work breeding from registered cats? If the cost of buying registered breeding cats is an issue then I imagine the cost of a C-section would be. If no-one is willing to sell you cats that are registered for breeding there is probably a good reason.

Yes these are cute kittens, but ALL kittens are cute.

 

I do already have stud quarters for him that he will be moving into later. I also have a large penned run so he can get into the fresh air as well. I also may try harness training him. One of my other kitties is harness trained and it works awesome!

The strange thing is I have read that plenty of breeders line breed and sometimes inbreed. And I am talking registered ones too. That I don't understand - especially purposely breeding close relatives.

 

No, money is not a problem. I have found breeders are reluctant or completely unwilling to sell to a novice. And they always require showing, which I am not super interested in doing. I think quality, healthy, well adjusted cats can be bred without showing. I would be interested in getting into registered breeding, but not quite at this point.

All my cats get proper vet care and I do not skimp on their well being. Just their raw/canned diet costs me plenty. I used to feed dry food but have become quite disillusioned. I love my cats, and no I am not perfect, but will continue to do everything possible to ensure they live long, healthy, happy lives.

 

PRA is the only disease Siamese in the UK are tested for, it's the only disease Langford suggest Siamese are tested for, and it's easily done by taking a check swab and posting it off to Langford. They will accept swabs from most of the world.

I strongly recommend you test both kittens if you do continue to breed them.

Care to suggest what other diseases Siamese are prone to, that is diseases which can be tested for?

Just because a breed club or laboratory currently list one disease that doesn't mean they shouldn't be screened for other ailments if a test for them exists.
Just look at all the breed clubs for dogs who suggest a tiny amount of recommended tests when the breed is prone to many more that can be tested for.

I am pretty sure a test for Gangliosis exists, I don't know if there would be any way of checking for heart disease or asthma, a scan maybe?