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Serious cause for concern - please take this seriously as it is a matter of gravity

Discussion in 'Dog Training and Behaviour' started by pogo_savvy, Apr 6, 2011.


  1. pogo_savvy

    pogo_savvy PetForums Newbie

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    My friends acquired his dog Bruce from a shelter who said that he had been rescued from an abusive home and as a consequence had fallen prey to numerous vices.

    My friend being a total adrenaline junky looked on it as a new challenge and took the Staffy in. (Has anyone else noticed the high proportion of staffies in care?) I visited a week later to see how they were getting on and the dog was exhibiting behaviour such as chewing on his leg, peeing on everything in sight and the following behaviour which I have never observed in any dog in my years of experience.

    The staffy had not been neuteured by request of my friend who has new age tendencies and believes neutering to be mutilation. As a consequence whilst we sat talking his dog made numerous attempts to mount my friend

    He was admonished but was persistent. He pursued his attempts constantly without remission. All this time he was well stood to attention which made the incident comical whilst at the same time being the stuff of horror films.

    When my friend made to leave,Bruce began to growl with his hackles raised. He cornered my friend and peeled back his lips to reveal those fearsome teeth. By this time any pretensions to manhood had been mollified completely, and I was frozen to the spot.

    I asked him if this had ever happened before and he replied that it had but not with such intensity. Bruce continued to advance on my friend who was backed against the wall, and began to snap at his legs, forcing him to turn and escape. Of course this was a ploy on the dog's part to access the area of his intent.

    Bruce then leapt onto my friend who ended up gashing his knee on the coffee table. All this time I was rooted to the spot terrified to move since I was aware that the dog could turn his amorous advances on myself.
    Once my friend was down Bruce began to mount him barking and snapping every time my friend tried to escape. He was literally being assaulted by his dog.

    The experience was one which left us both shaken. We never spoken of it again, but I know that we are both terrified that he could turn on pretty much anyone who enters the house.
    This dog not only tried to mount my friend by exhibits a host of sexually deviant behaviours. Something which happened at his previous owners I presume must have caused some kind of psychosis which manifests itself sexually.
    I am not sure what I should do do help my friend. Taking him to the vet could result in him being euthanised.What on earth should we do?
     
    #1 pogo_savvy, Apr 6, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2011
  2. Contact the shelter you got him from! maybe your friend - nor yourself are capable of resolving the issues you describe!
     
  3. newfiesmum

    newfiesmum Banned

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    Why could taking him to the vet result in the dog being euthanised? That would be your friend's decision, not the vet's. It is all very well being new aged and stuff, but one has to think about the dog in this instance. There is no guarantee that neutering would help the situation, but it could work. It may well be this randiness which has caused his abusive past. Some idiot deciding that the dog is being dominant and doing their best to dominate him.

    Firstly your friend should seriously consider neutering, as opposed to pts. To help him decide, there is such as thing as chemical castration, a sort of drug that lasts a couple of months and has the same or similar effect. Then he would be able to objectively decide whether his own beliefs are as important as the dog's well being.

    Some dogs are particularly oversexed, one of mine was, but I insisted on waiting until he was fully grown. It made his life a misery, to be honest, and he has been much happier since he was done.
     
  4. RobD-BCactive

    RobD-BCactive PetForums VIP

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    It sounds like your friend needs urgently a good professional behavourist who has experience rehabbing dogs - What Look for in Trainer/Behavourist
    A vet does not want to PTS dogs, or insist on it, no police powers; think along lines of informed consent.

    Really your friend needs to be comitted and put work in, if he's going to turn out a great pet, and also invest some money. It will take some self-discipline and consistency on his part, as with dogs it's simplest to follow "always or never, not sometimes" so they know where they are with you.

    The good news is, working with a positive-reinforcement based behavourist on the dog, should be enjoyable and fit in with your friends convictions. Most likely the dog, just needs to be taught acceptable behaviour in a consistent way.

    I wouldn't worry too much about "admonishments" not being effective, despite their frequent usage and popularity, they don't work very well. Bit like Humans really, being told not to do dope and drink too much etc...
     
  5. pogo_savvy

    pogo_savvy PetForums Newbie

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    Cheers for the support guys. I was worried people might be too prudish to deign to comment. I discussed the idea of chemical castration with my friend who maintained his stance that he nor anyone has the right to remove an animal's sole means of procreation - sigh.
    I agree that he may have been abused due to his unwanted advances also. My concern is that this has become ingrained behaviour. It's hard to tell whether this is glorified masturbation or actually his attempt to have sexual intercourse with my friend.
    Not to be crude, but the dog is priapic. The lion's share of the time I am at my friend's house the dog is doing something to gratify himself sexually. This is a serious psychosis in my opinion. He will mount and hump anything and everything. My friend has actually broached the idea of a nappybecause he spends so much time mopping up the results of Bruce's endeavours. However he still insists that castration would be cruel.
    The weird thing is that whenever Bruce sees a female dog he is indifferent but around male dogs he is a dog possessed displaying the classic signs of arousal. This is one for the research scientists.
     
  6. Rottiefan

    Rottiefan PetForums VIP

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    It most definitely seems to be ingrained. Humping and mounting is a natural calmative for dogs. Many dogs use to calm themselves down in times of stress. It could be that he feels insecure when strangers and other dogs are around, which he attempts to counter with the humping and the aggression/warning displays demonstrates his fears.

    I think 1) you need to take the dog to the vet to get him checked out and 2) allow your friend to talk to a professional. I know many people who are against castration, but the fact is, the dog may live a happier life because of it. I say 'may', though. Some dogs can even hump more so after castration!

    Seek professional advise, I think. Good luck.

    P.S. If it helps any, mounting in dogs is quite a natural behaviour. Dogs use it in play, as a calmative like I said, amongst other things. So it is not as crude as we humans think it is at first. As soon as we get over this mental hurdle, I think people can tackle the problem a lot more calmly!
     
  7. pogo_savvy

    pogo_savvy PetForums Newbie

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    We are looking for professional help over MSN as I type heh. I know that mounting itself isn't a sexualised behaviour necessarily. However it goes beyond mounting. Bruce is definitely attracted to male dogs since he is completely indifferent to females but is completely enamoured with every male he sees. Neither of us know what the consequences would be if he were allowed off leash with another dog, but we can guess.
    My friend refuses to give him away and for that I admire him. However I reckon he's out of his depth. We never spoke of that one incident ever again. However I can tell by the way that he treats his dog that its happened again. He has no choice but to submit to his dog because failure to do so results in him being viciously attacked.
     
  8. Jonesey

    Jonesey PetForums VIP

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    #8 Jonesey, Apr 7, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
  9. Jonesey

    Jonesey PetForums VIP

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    I hope your friend gets the right help. Agree with the other posters he needs a behaviourist stat.

    And I don't think the dog's a deviant.
     
  10. RobD-BCactive

    RobD-BCactive PetForums VIP

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    Your friend needs a reality check, hence the professional advice by someone who observes the behaviours and can explain the causes.

    I wouldn't focus too much about young dogs, showing "lipstick" and mounting males. Personally I find the lack of control of situation and apparent inability of your friend to teach most dangerous, not just to him & visitors but ultimately his dog.

    Dog's are a responsibility, and now he needs to follow through, or that dog will soon be on death row, perhaps as a result of a court order. It's quality of life, is not good in the current situation, dogs who have learnt to behave well in human soceity are the ones who tend to enjoy both freedom and security.
     
  11. newfiesmum

    newfiesmum Banned

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    You won't find anyone that prudish on here! If you were talking about humans, that would be different (well as far as I am concerned) but dogs have no reasoning powers.

    Your friend is out of his depth if he thinks he has no alternative other than to submit. That is not going to help him or the dog, is it? Don't look for behaviourists on MSN, please. Contact the APBC who have really qualified people with degrees in animal behaviour. You cannot afford to just employ anybody who is advertising, believe me.

    You have no idea of this poor dog's background, and I am told there are perverts about. He needs the vet first and foremost, to be sure there are no underlying medical problems. Then he needs a qualified behaviourist to diagnose his main problems. Both these things are essential.

    Although your friend sounds like he is trying to do the best he can for the dog, he is failing miserably. First in letting the dog terrorise him, and secondly in putting his own beliefs before the welfare of the dog. I am not a proponent of neutering a male dog for do good reason, but I have seen first hand just how miserable a dog can be when it is oversexed with no release.

    He is a dog, not a human. He is not going to resent being neutered, he is not going to think it is his right to procreate. Would anyone want a dog with this sort of temperament to procreate? All he will know, if it works, is that he is happier.

    The other thing to consider is the danger to other people. Is your friend happy to never be able to take this dog out in case he starts on a little old man or a child? The last thing we need is another sensational staffie attack.

    You have to persuade him to think about chemical castration to start with. It is not permanent and if it works, he will find his life and the dog's much happier. I found out myself that it is wrong to put my own beliefs above the welfare of the dog. It took two years of my newfoundland humping everybody and everything. I am not exaggerating - he could not be offlead or he would try to hump every other dog he saw. If I had visitors I had to keep him on his lead so he did not get to them. He was never vicious with it, but being so big he was dangerous. I wanted so much not to have him done, then one day it finally sunk in that the dog was totally miserable. Not me, the dog!

    Go with him to the vet, discuss the options. That is the best start for your friend and his dog.
     
  12. RobD-BCactive

    RobD-BCactive PetForums VIP

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    Great points!
    Now I disagree. Firstly it is not his friend's role to "pursuade" or advise on the best rehabilitation for this dog, who through no fault of it's own, has had an unfortunate start in life. Doing so may strain their relationship, after all the Owner has his own convictions, and needs to realise the cost of these, or give the dog up asap to avoid escalation and compounding it's problems.

    Secondly the reason why Vet & neutering, and chemical castration aren't a complete solution is this :
    The Effects of Spaying and Neutering
    on Canine Behavior - James O'Heare
    figures given for "Mounting People" :
    1. Reduced in 60% of cases
    2. Rapid reduction in 30%
    3. Gradual reduction in 30%
    4. Some decline in mounting bitches in heat too
    40% of cases, neutering will not resolve in any way.

    Nor will neutering by itself solve the other problems the dog has. Perhaps you can see, why I don't think focussing on the "lipstick" and mounting is the most beneficial course of action.

    A reality check is in order, and perhaps after having experienced the actual issues, the owner will be more open to change his convictions, with informed consent and seeing the difficulties of alternatives.
     
  13. newfiesmum

    newfiesmum Banned

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    Normally, I would agree, but in this instance it seems to be the OP who is worrying about his friend, not the friend who owns the dog. So advice from a vet might be a good place for him to start (the friend that is) if only on the basis that the dog's health should be checked, being as he has only just acquired him.

    I have stated that neutering may not work. I am just putting forward an option to try it without the permanent results of an operation.

    The OP also stated that the dog was chewing at his own feet, which is a sign of stress. So, no, it may not be sexual at all, but he shouldn't have much trouble in persuading his friend to check the dog's health with a vet.
     
  14. eugenezach

    eugenezach PetForums Newbie

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    This is a pretty strange problem that I have ever heard of. Most shelter dogs have some or the other psychological disorders due to the trauma they had to undergo from their earlier owners. I believe Bruce needs some kinda psychotherapy to make him alright.
     
  15. 912142

    912142 PetForums VIP

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    In my view (for what it is worth) if your friend wants the best for this dog he will keep an open mind and at the very least go down the avenue of speaking with the professionals, i.e the vet, the rescue and a behaviourist.

    To me it seems as though this owner is operating a blinkered approach and really for the dogs sake take those blinkers must come off and see if he can't find a solution to this - it will make for a happier dog and those he comes into contact with.

    After all what is the last option?

    Good luck.
     
  16. Helbo

    Helbo PetForums VIP

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    I agree with other posters

    Your friend cannot suffer in silence.

    He's taken on a dog with some deep-rooted problems from his upbringing and he needs professional help to sort them out. Talk to everyone he possibly can - the rescue, the vets, behaviourists, training classes...If he's serious about helping this dog then he needs to wise up and fast!!
     
  17. newfiesmum

    newfiesmum Banned

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    I am rather surprised that, given this dog's problems, any rescue would even consider rehoming him to a family environment, even if there are no children involved. I wonder if he was assessed properly at all, and don't most rescues neuter their dogs before they are rehomed or at least insist upon it being done?
     
  18. Helbo

    Helbo PetForums VIP

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    I agree with newfiesmum.

    It sounds like odd behaviour from a rescue centre.
     
  19. RobD-BCactive

    RobD-BCactive PetForums VIP

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    I think you may have missed some salient details though, which I am giving weight to.

    So the friend has alrady an entrenched position, specified to rescue not to neuter. We all know a Vet is going to suggest neutering in this case, as it is the thing that the Vet can do. If this course was acted on and failed, then the friend is now the person who was wrong, wasting time and money, on a fix that failed and doesn't address more than part of the problem. The friend is fearing what the Vet will say, and we don't really trust Vets to give good behavioural advice, do we?

    As you have noticed, there's other behaviour issues, and poor management of the dog in the home. To me they are far more dangerous than the mounting, given the dogs abused history and likely poor rearing.

    Putting it all together, whilst I respect you opinion about the likely actions required to give this dog a better chance, I personally doubt if the OP can sell it.

    Far better IMO to find someone to work with, who can act as impersonal and objective adviser from a position of trust. If the OP's friend cannot fund, the costs of the rehabilitation, frankly he hasn't a prayer, and the kindest thing is likely to be to return the dog for reassessment and neutering, before his domestic habits become even worse.
     
    #19 RobD-BCactive, Apr 7, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
  20. newfiesmum

    newfiesmum Banned

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    I agree totally, Rob. The OP is not a behaviourist, nor even the owner of a dog with issues, and may have even missed some pertinent behaviours during the times he has seen the dog. It is easy to miss some things whilst being terrified of the mounting and aggression.

    Certainly he should call in someone from the APBC, but I think he should also visit the vet, not to get the dog neutered, but to be sure of medical issues before spending a lot of money on a behaviourist.
     
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