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Schutzhund and positive training methods?

Discussion in 'Dog Training and Behaviour' started by mufti, May 10, 2010.


  1. mufti

    mufti PetForums Junior

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    Hi All,

    Iv'e always been interested in Schutzhund and I want a sport that me and my Rottie can do together that will be fun and challenging for him and me, and also as a working breed give him a "job" to do :)

    My only concern or question is as I train him exclusively using positive training methods is it still possible to train the sport of Schutzhund this way? or will most clubs use a more corrections based training method?
     
  2. leashedForLife

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    hey, mufti! :--)
    most clubs are still mired in the 1930s and 40s style of harsh correctives; some (sadly) advanced to 1960s correction TOOLS -
    shock-collars - with 2000-era controls: they are digital. :rolleyes: this is not IMO an improvement, or much of a change -
    they are still using a harsh-aversive, it involves a remote-control not a nightstick, hanging the dog, severe prong-jerks,
    but its the same mutton dressed as lamb that it ever has been. :thumbdown:

    Yes, U can train with pos-R -
    remember Positive-Punishment is still *positive* - but its hard to find many pos-R instructors in bite-sports.
    there are more pos-R bite-sports handlers than instructors, by a long shot - but they exist.
    finding them is the hard part.

    there are also Hybrids - watch out for those. they pull handlers + dogs in by *teaching* using pos-R, then when PROOFING
    comes along, they suddenly announce that corrections are mandatory, and the dog will never be solid without them. :thumbdown:
    A - this is Bullsh*t-101
    B - if the dog is really well-taught, there is not that much proofing involved; but it can still easily be pos-R/neg-P.
    taking away the dogs opp to bite is a simple + strong aversive consequence - it should not be over-used.

    STING-operations, set up to *make a dog fail*, are neither training nor proofing - in my eyes, they are abuse -
    abuse of the dogs trust, injury to the human-animal bond, and Machiavellian in their design.
    designing a test so that the dog Will! fail is gratuitious stoopidity, not training.


    * steve white * is a Master-trainer and former-cop in the USA who trains bite-work using pos-R/limited neg-P.
    at least 4 or 5 dogs now in the top-5 Schutzhund world-wide, were exclusively pos-R/neg-P trained and finished
    (IOW they did not teach with pos-R then proof with pos-P/neg-R).

    the Levels training program and on-line support group (on Yahoo Groups - traininglevels is the name of the Y!-group)
    has several? many? handlers who are self-training in bite-work with pos-R -
    theres a LOCATOR on the Yahoo-group that lets U find local-folks who are training thru Levels,
    but its an opt-in function - not everyone puts their info up.

    see dragonflyllama.com for more info on Levels-training: book (free, on-line), support group, U-Tube page,
    and an on-line log for tracking progress.

    since i am across the pond, i don;t have any names of pos-R instructors -
    perhaps *tripod or *carolineH, or other trainers
    there will have some leads to offer?
    cheers,
    --- terry
     
  3. Corinthian

    Corinthian PetForums Member

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    Yes, you can (and I have) trained Schutzhund and French Ring using positive methods. I clicked my dogs into titles without any difficulty.

    While AFAIK there are no Clicker Schutzhund books (maybe I should write one?) or DVD, the closest thing you can get is Ivan Balavanov's DVDs. If you can ignore some of the P+, which, if you have a good dog is not necessary.

    The Tracking was a combination of Clicker, Steve White's SIAB / HITT and Dildei Schutzhund tracking DVD. Though to tell you the truth, but the time I got around to White and Dildei, clicker had taken care of the foundation.
     
  4. mufti

    mufti PetForums Junior

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    Thank's guys I had a feeling most club's would not be using positive-r training :(

    I don't feel confident teaching via book's or dvd's as im a novice to the sport so a handler seems like the best option. So yes please if anyone knows of a good one in or not too far from the London area I would be most grateful :D
     
  5. leashedForLife

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    welcome back, cory! :--)

    here is a low-key specimen of the *hybrid approach* -
    Schutzhund Clicker Training | High Drive Puppy Foundation | German Shepherd Dog Training

    there are a slew of trainers + clubs who are far-more militant in their support of punishment AKA *corrections* -
    corrections is generally PC-speak for an aversive used as punishment
    (punishment = a consequence that reduces the prior behavior).

    leerburg.com was up until the last 18-MO, an entirely-toxic website IMO - highly punitive, proselytizing punishment,
    defending severe tools, etc - now he has discovered pos-R for initial teaching, but still embraces harsh correction,
    and even dominance / pack-theory attitude-adjustments - pinning, etc.
    so this is a highly-varied pastiche, and not IMO a safe place for the novice to wander around -
    theres a lot of rationalization + justification.

    caveat emptor,
    --- terry
     
  6. hawksport

    hawksport Banned

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    Ed Frawley using positive reinforement. Got to see that
     
  7. leashedForLife

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