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Ragdolls - Lilac & Chocolate

Discussion in 'Cat Breeding' started by Milly22, Jun 27, 2009.


  1. Milly22

    Milly22 PetForums VIP

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    Hi

    I wondered if anyone could advise me of any problems I may have if I was thinking of buying a kitten from a Lilac/Chocolate dad ?

    I wondered if anyone knew of any problems with studding them ?

    Many thanks
     
  2. spid

    spid PetForums VIP

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    I don't quite understand the question (heavy night last night!lol) - do you mean what will the kitten carry? Stud wise the different colours all are the same stud wise - as long as there is an appropriate hole all is well! Or are you thinking of buying a boy?
     
    #2 spid, Jun 27, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2009
  3. Milly22

    Milly22 PetForums VIP

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    I was chatting with someone about a kitten, the dad has recently been imported from somewhere (I also had a heavy work night out last night).

    She said I may find I have problems with studding the female we were talking about as many traditional ragdoll ...people GCCF will not let her advertise kittens (kitten is registered and on active though) and I think she has come across some reluctance regarding mating the kittens due to their colours. Possibly because they are not traditional ?. (sorry head a bit stuffy)

    Dad has won many shows but she mentioned something about the colour not being accepted with many breeders. I just wondered if anyone could shed any light on this? Its a girl. She said I may have difficulty finding a stud, due to the colours.

    Thanks
     
  4. spid

    spid PetForums VIP

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    Cetainly I don't have that problem in the birman world so far - nor heard abot it. Are lilacs and chocolates new colours for ragdolls? If I were you I would either ring a few stud owners and ask if they would potentially take this girl to stud and if they would refuse a girl on grounds of colour. If the answer is that they would refuse then walk away from this kitten you don't want a girl you can't stud.
     
  5. colliemerles

    colliemerles PetForums VIP

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    hmmm we need a ragdoll breeder to help answer this, i will see if i can find one, lol,:D But as said, i would certainly ask around the stud owners, :)
     
  6. Saikou

    Saikou PetForums VIP

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    According to the British Ragdoll Cat Club ( The British Ragdoll Cat Club - Show Guide ) all colours and patterns are accepted at championship level so I can not see anything from that why some colours would be less desirable. Unless its like in the siamese were because the original siamese were seal, you get some breeders (very few) who refuse to entertain the other colours/patterns, and will only work with pure seal pedigrees - not good as those nowaday would be few and far between and no doubt highly inbred.

    You also get some weird theories from some people working with a particular colour who refuse to entertain other colours as they claim it ruins whatever colour it is they are trying to work with. Thats not true either, but you often hear wild assumptions bandied about as fact.
     
  7. Saikou

    Saikou PetForums VIP

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    Looking at some other ragdoll sites, they state that lilacs and chocolates are rare, so maybe thats what was meant, that if you wanted to breed lilacs and chocolates, you would have trouble finding a stud that could give you them.
     
  8. rottiesloveragdolls

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    aww bless ya Collie thanx for the pm ;)

    I have a Lilac Bi Tabby Stub boy :) hes in my pictures (Bailey) he mates with my girls and i get some beautiful babies from him,
    Most people have a preference to colours but i dont
    So you are thinking of getting a Lilac girl on Active, but people have said not too as you wont find a stud for her am i right? or have i read this all wrong :rolleyes: you dont get many Chocolate Lilac or Cream colour point ragdolls they are harder to come by :)
     
    colliemerles likes this.
  9. ChinaBlue

    ChinaBlue PetForums VIP

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    There has been a huge debate for many years about whether there is still chocolate/lilac in the Ragdolls in the UK. There has been an outcross programme going on with a few breeders over recent years to try to reintroduce the lilac/chocolate but it is still ongoing so far as I am aware. I think if you were thinking of specifically wanting a chocolate or lilac then just to be sure, because these colours are so rare in this country, I would get it DNA tested - which I believe isn't too expensive (possibly around £25) (I think you send for a kit, take a swab and send it off and a couple of weeks later get the result).

    I believe there are a couple of breeders who have imported some lilacs/chocolates. I must admit when I look on some of the international websites of breeders with "lilacs" or "chocolates" some just look like a slightly paler seal or blue rather than what I would class as lilac or choc.

    I don't think you will necessarily have any more of a problem finding a stud willing to take the cat but as to whether you would get any choc/lilacs from the mating ...? You would have to ask the prospective stud owner to check over the pedigrees in any case.

    There has been a very long but I think educational debate on The Definitive Guide Forum about the chocolate/lilac -
    http://definitiveguide2ragdolls.myfreeforum.org/Chocolate_Lilac_debate_about31.html
    I hope you don't lose the will to live before you reach the end of it... Personally I will stick with the seals and blues!
     
    #9 ChinaBlue, Jun 27, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2009
  10. lizward

    lizward PetForums VIP

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    I just looked all this up - very interesting. Closing off the option to outcross (though I understand it was briefly brought back) means that if you lose a colour, you lose it and that's that.

    So, your girl will carry chocolate. The difficulty is going to be finding a stud for her that carries chocolate - a very close mating is likely to be your only option if you want chocolate or lilac kittens.

    On the other hand, presumably chocolate and lilac kittens are like gold dust and will command a higher price.

    I agree, make sure Dad really is chocolate or lilac first, if that is important to you.

    Liz
     
  11. lizward

    lizward PetForums VIP

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    Ah, hang on, I have it. This boy is an import. Perhaps he has been outcrossed at some point to some other breed which is acceptable in foreign registries but not in the GCCF. That would cause difficulty. Have you asked if he is GCCF registered and is so on which register? If it's reference register you need to know why.

    I bet that's it.

    Liz
     
  12. Milly22

    Milly22 PetForums VIP

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    Hi everyone, thank for your answers.

    Yes, this guy has been shipped over, he is on the GCCF Register and any kitten I may buy will be on the active register.

    I was advised that because Dad has liliac I may have problems breeding any potential girl as some breeders prefer to stick with the blues and seals.

    I think this is it? Also he has balinse? in him which she explained was just a longer haired version of siamese (looks shorter when I google them) which is in the ragdoll from the start anyway. I am having their papers emailed to me to look over. He is definitely registered as a ragdoll.

    After seeing the kittens I am very very impressed. They are stunning. Tabby mitted female, they are the same age as mine and look 3 weeks older, they are flufflier, larger. etc. Just stunning.

    No solid decsion made as yet though. I need to read through your link CB.

    I am not fussed about liliac or chocolate kittens. I love them all. I would just like a REGISTERED ACTIVE female. This one was very very lovely. I am smitten.
     
    #12 Milly22, Jun 27, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2009
  13. colliemerles

    colliemerles PetForums VIP

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    all sounds very interesting, keep us updated what you decide, :)
     
  14. Milly22

    Milly22 PetForums VIP

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    Oh yes I will. I am very excited. I love kittens and the dad is a stunner. beautiful! The timing would fit in nicely for when I have all Mistys litter going. That will be a sad time. Nice homes though. :)
     
  15. colliemerles

    colliemerles PetForums VIP

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    look forward to seeing a picture if you go ahead with it, good luck,xxx:)
     
  16. lauren001

    lauren001 PetForums VIP

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    In reference to your earlier problems with your unregistered girl I am sure you do not want to be in trouble again.

    One - make doubly sure she is not on the Reference, Experimental or Supplementary registers with the GCCF. She needs to be on the Full register.
    Two - you are unlikely to get Lilac or Chocolate kittens from matings to normal coloured boys.
    Three - your kittens could be carriers of Chocolate or dilute, something other breeders may not wish to buy into. I am sure you would not be thinking of selling breeding cats just now but it is something to think about in the future and your line may end up not being popular because of this Lilac dad lurking.
    Four - you need to be very certain that you can find people near to you who are willing to let her come to stud otherwise she is essentially worthless to you and will turn out to be another pet I am afraid.
     
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  17. lizward

    lizward PetForums VIP

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    There are four different GCCF registers. You need to know which one the girl is on. If she is on the reference register she cannot be shown and (depending on what is in the pedigree) it is possible that there may be "no progression" which means the progeny will never be regarded as ragdolls no matter how many generations you go.

    Supplementary register and experimental register do not matter, the breed itself is championship status and you will be able to show a cat of this colour regardless of whether she is on the full, supplementary or experimental register. It is reference register that is the issue for you.

    I just looked up the registration policy which was valid from 2002 - the present ones are not on the GCCF site at the moment so I cannot check this is the latest one, but balinese is not a permitted outcross for the ragdoll (goodness knows why it isn't, but it isn't). That means reference register and no progression. The only possible exception to that would be if the balinese was so far back that it didn't show on the certified pedigree the GCCF would have wanted in order to register the cat. However, with such an outcross the registration certificate would not mention ragdoll or even ragdoll type.

    The bottom line is that you need a copy of Dad's pedigree and of his registration certificate before proceeding with this purchase. If the breeder is genuine I am sure she will let you have one. Alternatively perhaps you could register with TICA instead?

    Liz
     
    #17 lizward, Jun 27, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2009
    Milly22 likes this.
  18. Milly22

    Milly22 PetForums VIP

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    Thanks very much for your replies.

    I read the link ChinaBlue gave last night and it makes very interesting reading.

    I will check Dads Pedigree thoroughly. He is very stunning but I need to see his past. The owner is with GCCF and TBRC and the progressive.

    I would only be selling kittens and not very often but I realise I need to look into any stud problems I may have in future.

    I think Balinese is way back in Dad Pedigree as he won a show recently, possibly in Fife but I could be talking nonsense, he is also going to the show I am attending in Edinburgh.

    The kittens do look different. Larger. Different eye colour. The girl I was hoping to buy blue/cream mitted, I will wait for the pedigree and have that checked out.

    I have emailed 2 people in Scotland regarding stud services so will ses what they say.

    Thanks again for all your help.

    I forgot to say, this lady did not all this out until she attened a Seminar for Breeding held by GCCF. She also told me that although she is down as a registered breeder with TBRCC they do not allow her to advertise her kittens on the site.
     
    #18 Milly22, Jun 28, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2009
  19. Milly22

    Milly22 PetForums VIP

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    Patriarca Reggae

    I found this for him.

    Can anyone advise if this looks good or not good.
    Many thanks for your help.

    I need to make my decision this week as I have another girl I am interested in, I don't wish to have people waiting etc.

    I have also seen pics on him when he was in Spain. He is HUGE now, very HUGE. He carries liliac but is blue.

    Why does this have to be so confusing, or perhaps I confuse myself.
     
    #19 Milly22, Jun 28, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2009
  20. Milly22

    Milly22 PetForums VIP

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    That's one Breeder up here willing to allow me use her 2 studs. Carrying chocllate and liliac. ChinaBlue has very kindly gave me people to contact so I have done this and will await replies before making any rash decisions.

    I do like the tabby mitted, very cute and sweet etc.
     
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