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pit bulls

Discussion in 'Dog Chat' started by staceydawlz, Aug 11, 2009.


  1. staceydawlz

    staceydawlz PetForums VIP

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    just wondered...i know there a ban now in uk to own a pit bull but once a ban is set is it set there for good or culd we fight it? make petitions and stuff i love pits they r amazng dogs when in the right hands id love to own one and think its terrible that they are killed just for being a pecific breed...
    anyone think the same...could there be a way to get round the ban, get it lifted or something?:(
     
  2. princessx87

    princessx87 PetForums Senior

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    Hard subject......!!

    Pits are lovely and i would have many in a heart-beat, but....

    Many have been banned due to bad owners / and mixed breeding.

    Think of this way if a pitbull got mixed with a gs, then you would have 2 powerful dogs and say 6-8 people (General sized litter) would have their work cut out. I understand that many people will say, Buying a dog cuts work out anyways, but would you like to be on the recieving end of a pit, or mix?


    Sorry that they bearly answers your question lol
     
  3. CheekoAndCo

    CheekoAndCo PetForums VIP

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    I'm not sure really.. I think they would end up in the same hands as some staffies do. I can't really think of how to word what I mean but I think you get the idea of all the staffies in rescues then to bring pit bulls back and it could end up happening with them aswell. Brains not working tonight :p
     
  4. cassie01

    cassie01 PetForums VIP

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    I think if we could put in place something to make sure only decent loving people could have dogs then they would be more likely to over turn the ban on all 4 breeds, however with any old idiot able to go out and buy dogs and either not bring them up properly or purposly bring them up to be nasty i dont think we should have the ban overturned as idiots ruined these dogs before and its not fair on the dogs to let them at them again. its bad enough these idiots have moved onto other breeds instead.
     
  5. Johnderondon

    Johnderondon PetForums VIP

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    Banned due to mixed breeding?!


    No, they were banned because they were a politically safe breed to target. Nothing more.

    Stacey - there have been people fighting against the DDA from its inception. If you would like to offer your support then I'd suggest joining the DDAWatch group on facebook and on this forum, in 'general chat', you can find a sticky thread for Bruce the alleged pit bull in Northern Ireland who could do with all the support he can get.
     
  6. Nonnie

    Nonnie PetForums VIP

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    They wont ever overturn the DDA. No one would want to have that on their shoulders should another death occur. There would be public outcry.

    Sadly there is very little that can be done. The people that make the laws know sod all about animals, and are only interested in pleasing the masses, who are more than happy for certain breeds and types to be singled out and destroyed.

    People are happy to believe the media. They feel safer thinking that the government has done something, and it taking steps to enforce the law. The country lives in ignorance.
     
  7. Johnderondon

    Johnderondon PetForums VIP

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    They did it in Holland. They recognised that BSL didn't reduce attacks. There must surely be some hope that education and common sense will eventually win the day.

    As dog attacks continue (as they surely will) then the government will be forced into one of three positions:

    1. It can claim that the DDA is working fine and the odd fatality 'ain't so bad'.

    2. It can prosecute the DDA with ever increasing ferocity, incrementally expanding it and adding more breeds opportunistically.

    3. Recognise that BSL doesn't work and give us smarter laws which focus on owner competence.

    There is a Bill currently before the Scottish Parliament which is promoted as a replacement for BSL although, cynic that I am, I suspect that if the Bill progresses the part that repeals sec 1, DDA will be that part that gets dropped at the last minute.

    The Pit Bull Placebo (there's an excellent book by the same title)
     
  8. lauren001

    lauren001 PetForums VIP

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    The only worry I have is if they made them legal again, is that a certain element of society would ditch their Staffies in an instant and get a Pit Bull, resulting in even more Staffies in bad circumstances or in rescue.

    I agree with many in here, it is not the breed it is the owners.
     
  9. Johnderondon

    Johnderondon PetForums VIP

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    Just a side point - and illustration as to the insanity of our current laws - a pit bull x GSD is not necessarily illegal.

    If it inherited the GSD double coat then it wouldn't be of 'type' and wouldn't be banned.

    If it inherited in short, single coat of the bull terrier then it might be doomed.


    Does that make anyone feel safer?
     
    #9 Johnderondon, Aug 11, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2009
  10. alison

    alison PetForums Junior

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    That certain element who want a pit bull and dont particually care for the dogs (therefore dumping them) already own them. Legalising the four breeds will only improve things imho.
     
  11. staceydawlz

    staceydawlz PetForums VIP

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    well what about having a licence for one or something...i just thik its not reall fair its not the breeds fault if yi know what i mean :(
     
  12. cassie01

    cassie01 PetForums VIP

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    i thought you could have one with a special licence and the dog has to be muzzled when out in public?? or did i dream that??
     
  13. shruli

    shruli PetForums Newbie

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    The only way you can legally keep a pitbull type dog, is by handing the dog to the police, or wait for it to be seized, then go through the courts which could take months and fight for your dog not to be destroyed. The court will decide whether you can register the dog or not. There is no way to voluntarily register a "pitbull type" dog. No matter how you obtained your dog, you are considered a criminal if you own one, and it is for you to prove otherwise (guilty till proven innocent). I wish there was a way to get a licence, because if you are unfortunate or fortunate enough (depending how you view it) to accidently find yourself in possession of a dog that can easily be mistaken for a pitbull type dog, you will live in daily fear of the consequences. Your other choice is to have your own dog destroyed, but would someone do that to one of their kids. I DON'T THINK SO!!
     
  14. borderer

    borderer Guest

    i had a pitbull he was a lovely dog liked everyone he lived 16 years lovely dog still miss him:(
     
  15. Blitz

    Blitz PetForums VIP

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    are you sure about that. I understood it was illegal to breed from one or to walk it in public without a muzzle but not illegal to own one.

    just found this, so not illegal to own one

    This section applies to— .
    (a)
    any dog of the type known as the pit bull terrier; .
    (b)
    any dog of the type known as the Japanese tosa; and .
    (c)
    any dog of any type designated for the purposes of this section by an order of the Secretary of State, being a type appearing to him to be bred for fighting or to have the characteristics of a type bred for that purpose. .
    (2)
    No person shall— .
    (a)
    breed, or breed from, a dog to which this section applies; .
    (b)
    sell or exchange such a dog or offer, advertise or expose such a dog for sale or exchange; .
    (c)
    make or offer to make a gift of such a dog or advertise or expose such a dog as a gift; .
    (d)
    allow such a dog of which he is the owner or of which he is for the time being in charge to be in a public place without being muzzled and kept on a lead; or .
    (e)
    abandon such a dog of which he is the owner or, being the owner or for the time being in charge of such a dog, allow it to stray.
     
    #15 Blitz, Aug 21, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2009
  16. sequeena

    sequeena PetForums VIP

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    I honestly think the ban won't be lifted - nor do I want it to be. They are beautiful dogs but what do most people want them for? To breed and fight!! I want these dogs to stay out of the country so they aren't exploited in such a way.
     
  17. sallyanne

    sallyanne Guest

    Hopefully this will give you a better understanding,
    The Dangerous Dogs Act - What You Need to Know
    Section One of the DDA made it illegal to own any of the following “types”

    The Pit Bull Terrier
    The Japanese Tosa
    The Fila Braziliero
    The Dogo Argentino
    When the Act became law there where no known Fila’s or Dogo’s in the country. There was one Tosa and there where a thousands of pit bull terrier types. Owners of those dogs previously legally owned where given until March 1992 to register their dogs with the Index of Exempted Dogs in order to avoid prosecution. Registering the dogs meant the owners had to comply with the following restrictions:

    The dogs had to be:

    Neutered
    Micro chipped
    Tattooed with exemption number on the inside of the back leg
    Kept on lead at all times in a public place
    Muzzled at all times in a public place
    Not to be owned or walked by a person under 16 years of age
    To be covered by third party liability insurance cover.

    Once the Index closed in March 1992 any dogs deemed to be “type” by a court were automatically ordered to be destroyed. There wasn’t any other option open to the courts until 1997(see below for more details) and before that date many dogs of good temperament where destroyed under the DDA.

    The idea behind the Act was that with all the dogs being neutered those “types” of dogs would die out. 17 years on, the Act has clearly failed to achieve this goal.

    Weaknesses in the DDA

    The problems with the law began even before it was drawn up. The law does not ban four breeds of dog; it bans four “types”. Pit Bull Terrier’s and the three other breeds where not recognised by the government. This meant there wasn’t a breed standard defining what any of the breeds actually looked like. With this in mind the government decided that the word “type” should be used however they failed to properly define what was meant by “type”.

    Home Office 1992 – “Under the Act any dog which has the characteristics of the type known as a pit bull terrier is regarded as being of that type, irrespective of parentage.”
    Home Office 1992 – “In this country the pit bull terrier is generally regarded as being a cross between a bull breed of dog and larger dogs like the mastiff. It may also, however, be obtained by breeding or cross-breeding pit bull terriers themselves.”

    Home Office 1992 – “Whether section 1 of the Act applies to any particular cross will depend on whether the resulting dog is of the type known as the pit bull terrier – that is to say, whether it has the physical and behavioural characteristics of the pit bull terrier.”

    With so much confusion about, when cases began to go through the courts it was up to the judge to determine whether any dog was “of type” and to define the meaning of the word.

    In 1993 the Queen’s Bench Divisional Court (appeal court) decided that

    “a dog of the type known as a Pit Bull Terrier is an animal approximately amounting to, near to, having a substantial number of characteristics of the Pit Bull Terrier”

    The court also ruled that the relevant breed standard for assessing whether a dog is or is not of the type should be that of the ADBA(American dog breeders association). Since part of that breed standard concerned the dog’s behaviour, the court ruled that evidence of a dog’s behavioural characteristics was relevant, but not conclusive.

    This ruling created “Case Law” meaning that all future cases followed this definition. However by defining the word type in such a way the law then began to spill out to cover other legal breeds and cross breeds. Any dog, regardless of the breed or cross breed could have a substantial number of characteristics of a Pit Bull Terrier. A dog does not need to have all the characteristics, just a substantial amount and the law is regardless of the parentage of the dog. This resulted in KC regged staffords being destroyed and litters of puppies being split as to whether they where pit bull type or not. Behaviour of the dog being deemed relevant but not conclusive when deciding whether a dog is “type” or not, meant that dogs with good temperaments could still be deemed type and therefore dangerous by law.

    By stating irrelevant of parentage it means it is irrelevant if you can prove a dogs parents are legal breeds. If a dog looks like a pit bull type, it becomes one unless you can prove it looks more like another breed.

    The burden of proof was also reversed. Unlike in every other law where a person is innocent until proved guilty, the DDA means once an allegation has been made, it is up to the defendant to prove their dog is not of “type”. The prosecution do not have to prove a dog is a pit bull type. An owner has to prove it isn’t. This is incredibly difficult to do given the definition of “pit bull type” The reversal of the burden of proof was challenged in the High court and the European commission however it was upheld as law.

    In 1997 the DDA was amended to remove mandatory destruction of dogs brought before a court. While this amendment saved many lives it also showed just how flawed the law is. The amendment stated that if a dog was deemed to be pit bull type but the owner could show he was a responsible owner and the dog posed no danger to the public, the judge could order the dog to be registered with the Index of exempted dogs and not be destroyed, however there is still the presumption of destruction. So on one hand the law says a breed of dog is a dangerous breed but then accepts that this isn’t the case for the whole breed and each dog should be judged on its merits.

    Since the amendment many dogs have been entered onto the index. To date there has never been a situation where a registered dog has gone on to attack anyone.

    While the amendment was a literally life saving change, the Index remained closed. This means that the only way you can legally register a dog is to be taken to court either by civil or criminal law. You cannot apply to the Index yourself.

    It is an offence to own or keep any of the types of dog listed below, unless it is on the Index of Exempted Dogs and is in compliance with the requirements. In any event it is an offence to breed from, sell or exchange (even as a gift) such a dog, irrespective of whether it has been placed on the Index of Exempted Dogs. Page 3 of Annex A provides further details about the Index.

    Defra, UK - Animal health and welfare - Animal Welfare - The Control of Dogs
     
    #17 sallyanne, Aug 21, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2009
  18. Tigerneko

    Tigerneko PetForums VIP

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    In a way, I sort of feel the same. I think BSL is a load of rubbish but on the other hand, once these breeds were legalised, they'd become the ultimate status dog which would be easy for the wrong sort of owner to obtain. It'd be so much better if laws were based around the owner and not the dog. A licence could be the way forward, but i'm sure it'd just be a matter of time before people were getting fake licences, or licenced people breeding and selling their pups to bad homes. It'd just be too hard to control once the breeding started imo. So yeah, in a way, it might just be better to not have them in our country for their own sake :(
     
  19. Johnderondon

    Johnderondon PetForums VIP

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    There are more pitbull type dogs in the UK than in 1991 when the Act was passed.

    By demonising the breed the Act has made them a must-have accessory for the sort of owner that shouldn't have any dog.

    The dogs are here already. They never left. All the Act has achieved is the death and persecution of innocent dogs. We do need smarter dog laws and better control measures but repealing Sec 1., DDA would only improve things.
     
    noushka05 likes this.
  20. shruli

    shruli PetForums Newbie

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    I agree totaly. The law needs to be changed. There are people out there breeding dogs for fighting. That is not going to stop because a type of dog is banned. These dogs are around in their thousands, they are sold as Staffy crosses, Irish staffys, and any other description the breeder gives them, and sold on the open market. If you had to have a licence to own a dog of any breed or cross, at least that would put some control over the buying and selling of dogs and would be self funding. Of cource it would be abused by some, but unfortunatly, thats the world we live in!
     
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