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Pinching in training

Discussion in 'Dog Training and Behaviour' started by Beth78, Jul 11, 2019.


  1. Beth78

    Beth78 PetForums Senior

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    I saw something on our reactive rovers walk that has upset and confused me.
    A lady (not in our walking group)
    Was walking a gsd puppy.
    I noticed her pinching the dogs rear end every so often, the dog visibly flinched every time.
    I plucked up the courage to ask her why, she said she is training him a reliable heel command.
    Every time there was tension on the lead she would pinch him.
    I was so upset I started shaking.
     
  2. Beth78

    Beth78 PetForums Senior

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    And then he turned round to look at our dogs and got pinched on the ear.
    Why would someone do this ?
     
  3. lorilu

    lorilu PetForums VIP

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    People are idiots. I would have found that very upsetting too, and would probably have had to say something more. Like where on earth did she learn to do such a cruel thing?
     
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  4. Beth78

    Beth78 PetForums Senior

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    The only thing I said was "that's a good way to get bitten" She just laughed
     
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  5. Linda Weasel

    Linda Weasel PetForums VIP

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    Words fail me.
     
  6. mrs phas

    mrs phas my home, my sofa, my rules

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    Seems like a certain owner has been watching too much Cesar Millan and his outdated dominance theories
    All she's going to get is a dog that doesn't trust her and is likely to start being lead reactive, if every time he looks at another dog he gets pinched
     
    #6 mrs phas, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2019
  7. Lurcherlad

    Lurcherlad PetForums VIP

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    Driving along the other day I saw a woman shouting at and yanking the lead of a dachshund gobbing off at 2 dogs on the other side of the road.

    Not sure it was helping it to cope or change it’s behaviour.

    Another local lady used those awful air blast cans to stop her dog barking.

    I’ve tried to suggest alternative methods to this type of owner on a number of occasions and it usually falls on deaf ears, but I can’t just say nothing, for the dogs’ sake. It might just lead the owner to try.

    It’s upsetting to see though :(
     
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  8. Teddy-dog

    Teddy-dog PetForums VIP

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    Some people are just ignorant I think. They train as they’ve always trained (or how a friends friend friend has told them) and don’t research how to do it properly.
    She probably think she’s redirecting the dogs attention back onto her so it will ‘learn’ to keep eyes on her... chances are the dog won’t understand why it’s getting pinched and might become lead reactive !
     
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  9. danielled

    danielled Guest

    Recently over the weekend I saw somebody kicking and punching their dog Cesaer Millan style, I suggested another method for getting the dog to walk nicely, reply was Cesaer Millan does this so must be right, so I said I know what he does, that’s why he gets bit, then the chap said don’t be so stupid he’s an expert. Oh yeah, an expert on how not to treat dogs.
     
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  10. Jamesgoeswalkies

    Jamesgoeswalkies PetForums VIP

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    Pinching is a method of adverse training that used to be used by the Gun Dog community. It's was often used to teach dummy hold and to teach the dog to hold steady. I say 'used to be used' but there are still clips doing the rounds on You Tube I believe and whilst I am pleased to see the working/gun dog community gradually working towards a more reward based approach many die hards still use forceful methods. From your description maybe the lady concerned has learned this method from an old gundog trainer (although she is doing it wrong anyway).

    About 30 years ago I walked out of a recognised Gun Dog Group with my then Black Lab when it was proffered as a method to train a hold. Hated it then and I hate it still.

    I don't think I've ever seen Cesar Milan use pinching. It's not a dominant based training method.

    J
     
    #10 Jamesgoeswalkies, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
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  11. danielled

    danielled Guest

    Cesaer prefers to punch, kick and strangle the living snot out of dogs, or use certain torture devices such as prong collars.
     
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  12. Burrowzig

    Burrowzig PetForums VIP

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    Shock collars, too.
     
  13. Bugsys grandma

    Bugsys grandma PetForums VIP

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    On one occasion I was out with with one of my dogs, when a young cocker spaniel came charging over from the other side of the field with a woman running after him shouting his name, the dog was clearly not listening to her and was totally ignoring her calling him. He stopped when he got to us to say hello to my dog and as the owner caught up with him she sprayed a huge blast from one of those air cans at him!!

    I was pretty angry to say the least, cos it scared the living daylights out of me and my dog, and when I asked her what the f**k she was doing, she told me she was doing it to teach her dog not to run away!?? :eek::eek:
    I seriously wonder about some people!
     
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  14. lorilu

    lorilu PetForums VIP

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    Any dog would run away from that good grief. My friend was telling me a story the other day about when she was training her dog to recall. When the dog came back she praised her and the person with her said "why are you praising her it took her forever to come back, I would have smacked her". My friend of course pointed out that a smack when returning would not encourage the dog to come when called. Why are people so dumb?
     
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  15. Bugsys grandma

    Bugsys grandma PetForums VIP

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    Seriously! Some people really have absolutely no idea do they.
    Sometimes Woody gets a bit stubborn, especially lately for some reason, but however long it takes him to come back, he always gets praised and told what a good and clever boy he is, even when I do want to call him a rude name for making me look like an idiot with a badly behaved dog.!
     
  16. danielled

    danielled Guest

    Yes those horrid things too.
     
  17. Lurcherlad

    Lurcherlad PetForums VIP

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    I was advised to give Jack “a good hiding” to teach him a lesson if he didn’t recall :Punch

    I replied “er no, I don’t use abusive training methods on my dog”.
     
  18. danielled

    danielled Guest

    I’ve had that one too.
     
  19. ShibaPup

    ShibaPup PetForums VIP

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    The average pet owner wants the annoying behaviour to stop quickly - a shut down dog = that behaviour stops. Happy owner - not so happy dog. Sometimes I think it's sheer frustration too when people don't understand why their dog is behaving the way they do. Punishment always seems to be an important thing - the dog must know they've done wrong, they act "guilty" they know what they've done.

    When you learn more you understand why that isn't a good idea, it breaks down communication and trust between you and the dog and often in the long run, only makes behavioural problems worse or cause more.

    The fact is changing behaviour takes a lot of time, patience, consistency and sometimes management - most people simply can't be bothered for such a long winded approach. Good dog trainers are worth their weight in gold - training the dog is the easy part, having the social skills to train the owners is the most amazing part!

    When people have saw me and Lily training outside, I've been approached a couple of times and asked for advice - I can train people's dogs. I can't train the owners, I don't have the skills for it.
     
  20. O2.0

    O2.0 PetForums VIP

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    I pinched little dog on the bum last night when she was rolling about in the bed. Led to an awesome game of blanket monster. :D

    As @Jamesgoeswalkies says, the ear pinch used to be a pretty common and accepted way of teaching a hold. It's classic negative reinforcement. The pinching goes away when the dog does the desired behavior.
    There is nothing inherently wrong about negative reinforcement, it's just that positive reinforcement - done right, tends to create much more enthusiastic, reliable behaviors. But the key is done right. And if you're old school and have trained 100s of dogs successfully with an ear pinch, learning a new way is daunting to say the least.

    Suzanne Clothier has a classic and fabulously written article about the ear pinch. Her line about searching for better ways to teach and educate the dogs we love was my siggy for a long time :)
    https://suzanneclothier.com/article/reliability-retrieve-justifying-ear-pinch/

    Personally I try to be understanding of why an owner would use or trainer would recommend aversive methods. Owners are often desperate, worried, embarrassed by their dog's behavior and are susceptible to the Milgram Effect. Trainers are doing what they know works, as above, learning a new way of doing something when your previous way works so well is daunting and takes a certain amount of courage and trust too. My hats off to all those trainers out there who do change their ways.

    As fun as it is to judge others for doing things 'wrong' and being mean to their dogs, when it comes to really making a difference it's pretty ineffectual.
    But if you try to really understand the emotions behind the human's rationale for using the aversive method and respond to those emotions with human compassion, you're much more likely to be able to share an alternative and actually be heard. Which leads to a better outcome for the dog in the long run.
     
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