Welcome to PetForums

Join thousands of other pet owners and pet lovers on the UK's most popular and friendly pet community and discussion forum.

Sign Up

PDE - Anyone STILL believe the hype?

Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by Sleeping_Lion, Nov 3, 2010.


  1. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2009
    Messages:
    21,576
    Likes Received:
    663
    I really find it utterly amazing that this one television programme has had such a long lasting, and in some ways, negative effect? Thoughts from breeders and those that saw the programme much appreciated....
     
  2. sid&kira

    sid&kira PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    5,272
    Likes Received:
    92
    I think it did go over the top, and it was very one sided and showed show breeders in a very bad light. I know at the time I agreed with every word they said and that pedigree dogs where the unhealthiest dogs ever and show breeders where horrible monsters :eek:

    However, after talking to many knowledgeable breeders I've learnt otherwise, and since changed my view. Though I do still believe that without the show ring we wouldnt have half the health problems we do now, but at the same time, would this have happened anyway due to PFs?

    The programme done both good and bad for the dog breeding world.

    On the good side it highlighted health problems and the necessary tests and brought them more to the publics attention, it also gave the KC/breed clubs a kick up the arse and got breed standards changed (i believe or was that changed before?)

    On the bad side it made Joe Public wary of show breeders, as it made them out to be evil and uncaring, and so the PFs and BYBs are getting more business and genuine good breeders who happen to show are loosing out.

    I think PDE had a point, however they could have included both sides.
     
  3. Nicky10

    Nicky10 PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Messages:
    23,704
    Likes Received:
    1,282
    I agreed with some of it and I still do some breeds need serious work and it's the show lines that are the worst gsds and clumber spaniels (I know they weren't actually in the programme) spring to mind but there are a lot others that don't even have the fitter for purpose working lines. However they chose the worst breeds and went to the worst breeders within those breeds the pug breeder who said it didn't matter if they stopped breathing and passed out when excited and the ridgeback breeder who saw nothing wrong with putting down ridgeless puppies for example. Some of the dogs shown like the poor cavalier and boxer weren't even from show kennels yet the whole emphasis was put on how sick and unhealthy show dogs were.

    It did make the public aware of health testing and the importance of going to a good breeder but it turned so many people to puppy mills and bybs in the mistaken belief that as they weren't show dogs they would be healthy. It also helped bring in the new breed standards but I believe those were already in review before it aired.

    That pug still annoys me. They said oh it's awful he qualified for crufts. Surely the people knew he was unhealthy before they entered him in at least one championship show for him to qualify...
     
    #3 Nicky10, Nov 3, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2010
  4. Bijou

    Bijou PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,677
    Likes Received:
    168
    .....hang on - who is it who health tests, who pays for research into genetic problems, who has health committees for every breed , who compiles and updates data bases for every breed - is it the working dog world ? the BYB ? the breeder of designer crosses ?- hell no - it's the show world ! - perhaps we hav'nt got it all right but lets face it without the dedication and passion of show breeders we simply would not have half the breeds we have now.

    Jemima Harrison is entitled to her opinion but lets not forget that is simply what it is -one persons opinion - presented to us with carefully edited snippets to support her stance and no more valid that mine, yours or the thousands of experienced show breeders in the Uk - the difference is of course that we were not allowed the chance to present our opinion in the same way !

    I for one refuse to wear a hair shirt and feel apologetic for breeding dogs good enough to win in the show ring irrespective of what PDE and Ms Harrison may think !!

    and if we are expected to believe everything we see on TV then we must all believe that Wagner is a great singer and deserves to stay on the X factor and its' not all really just a huge fix !!
     
    #4 Bijou, Nov 3, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2010
    Luvdogs and Spellweaver like this.
  5. penfold71

    penfold71 PetForums Newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2010
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    No...I don't believe it...it's fixed!!!!!

    Seriously though, what annoys me is that it pushed some sections of the public right into the hands of the PF and BYB and away from the responsible (but demonised) show breeders.

    Personally, I would still prefer that the KC implemented the AB health tests as a prerequisite for registration. I honestly do think it will end up as that, just wish it would hurry up.:frown:
     
  6. Spellweaver

    Spellweaver PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2009
    Messages:
    9,038
    Likes Received:
    2,024
    Excellent post! Couldn't have put it better myself.
     
  7. Spellweaver

    Spellweaver PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2009
    Messages:
    9,038
    Likes Received:
    2,024
    I think the above points from these two posts show the sad legacy of this program. I think that many people can now see how biased the program was, and how it told half-truths and lies, but on the other hand people are still believing some of the lies it told. If intelligent posters such as sid&kira and Nicky10 are still under the mistaken impression that show dogs are less healthy than non show dogs, that the exaggerations in some breeeds are all down to show breeders, and that nothing was happening about health testing, research into genetic conditions and altering breed standards to make dogs more healthy BEFORE this program, then what chance has someone new to pet-owning have of understanding anything different?

    I agree totally with sid&kira and Nicky10 - the main legacy of this program is that unless people actually know someone who shows, or comes on forums such as this one where they can see both sides of the issues discussed, then they have been given the impression that show breeding is bad, and puppies from show breeders should be avoided. Puppy farmers and bybs must be laughing all the way to the bank as a result of the fall-out from this program.

    Far from doing any good for the dog world (all the changes that people are attributing to the program were in the process of happening anyway) this program has actually promoted pf and bybs. How can that be good for the dog world? How can Jemima Harrison sleep at nights knowing this is the result of her work?
     
  8. Nicky10

    Nicky10 PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Messages:
    23,704
    Likes Received:
    1,282
    I said that some of the show dogs are more exaggerated there are plenty of breeds where there are no separate show and working lines the dogs are easily capable of both but in some breeds there is a huge difference. And I believe I said I knew the standards were being reviewed before the programme. Bybs and puppy mills have bred in a lot of the exaggerations hugely wrinkled shar peis, pugs etc with hugely bugged eyes and those aren't the fault of the show breeders
     
  9. Spellweaver

    Spellweaver PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2009
    Messages:
    9,038
    Likes Received:
    2,024
    I know you did hun and my post wasn't intended as an attack on you (or sid&kira for that matter!). It was the fact that you are still under the impression that, in your words, the exaggerations in "show dogs are the worst" - which you probably wouldn't have been if this program had not been so biased - that I was picking up on. It was a criticism of the program for giving people this impression, not a criticism of you or your opinions, so sorry if it came across that way.
     
  10. Nicky10

    Nicky10 PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Messages:
    23,704
    Likes Received:
    1,282
    It's ok. First time I watched Crufts was the year the giant schnauzer won, the year before PDE and I was still thinking the gsds looked wrong. It wasn't all the programme.
     
  11. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2009
    Messages:
    21,576
    Likes Received:
    663
    Don't you mean pekingese?

    I don't think it did make the public aware of health testing per se, I think it made out that pedigrees were so unhealthy, they require certain health tests. If only it had highlighted that people who breed pedigrees, many breeders are embracing proven health testing where it is shown to be a problem within a breed. People still sell cross breeds with the hype that they're healthier than all those inbred pedigree dogs that you see at crufts etc, etc, etc.
     
  12. Nicky10

    Nicky10 PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Messages:
    23,704
    Likes Received:
    1,282
    No the "sickest pug in Britain" the one with the million health problems that they showed. He had qualified for Crufts.

    The pekingese BIS winner was horrific as well. No dog that needs surgery to breathe properly should be bred from
     
  13. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2009
    Messages:
    21,576
    Likes Received:
    663
    Ah, can't remember the pug, can't remember much of the programme now to be honest. But the lashback against all pedigree breeders seems to continue on and on.

    I think Spellweaver knows more about the Peke's surgery, she's posted before about why the BIS was allowed to stand.
     
  14. Nicky10

    Nicky10 PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Messages:
    23,704
    Likes Received:
    1,282
    He had if I remember hemivertabrae, couldn't breathe properly, had had to have all these surgeries and still had problems and rightly they were saying it was awful he had qualified for Crufts. But surely they knew at least some of these problems when they entered him in at least one championship show to qualify
     
  15. SEVEN_PETS

    SEVEN_PETS PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Messages:
    6,662
    Likes Received:
    133
    When the program went out on TV, I wasn't as educated about dogs as I am now. I believed and agreed with most of the stuff on there. It was also highly emotional (I still cry at the poor cavalier and the boxer who were suffering and in so much pain), which means that people are more likely to believe what is said on the program. I was angry at show people for breeding these dogs and putting the problems in the dogs.

    Now, I understand that the program was completely biased and not all show breeders were like the ones on that program. On the program, they were some of the worst breeders you can get, like thinking it's ok to cull ridgeless puppies, thinking it's ok that bulldogs can't breed or whelp on their own. But I now realise there are some great breeders out there who are getting tarred with the same brush, and this isn't fair. Some great breeders are doing the health tests and only breeding from good quality dogs. Unfortantely the program pushed the public right into PFs hands and many people think that all show breeders are bad, but this is totally wrong. We need another program to show the other side of it.

    However I do think it was good to highlight the plight of pedigree dogs today, but they shouldn't have made it so one-sided and they should have mentioned health tests and that good breeders will do this and only breed from healthy dogs.
     
  16. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2009
    Messages:
    21,576
    Likes Received:
    663
    Chuckle, I was referring to the peke, really remember nothing about the pug, but completely agree, if a dog isn't fit enough to live and breathe normally, and needs corrective surgery to function normally, it shouldn't be bred from and the type of conformation that leads to any sort of health problems should be discouraged and not rewarded. Unfortunately, this isn't always the case as showing is subject to fashion, but I hope it's moving away from that sort of reward now, and the breeds that have been subject to exaggerations will now move back towards a healthier conformation.
     
  17. rocco33

    rocco33 PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2009
    Messages:
    5,443
    Likes Received:
    770
    I have mixed feelings about the PDE programme - there was much truth in it, but it was lost in the hysteria. Sadly, that's what makes good tv and often it's necessary to hit hard to hit a point home. Would Sir Bob have recorded and done Live Aid if he'd just read about it? That's the power of the media.

    I'm not sure the positives outweighed the negatives. Unfortunately, many saw show dogs as the cause of all health problems, but that's not true. Yes, some of the exaggerations and in breeding has led to problems, but the show people embraced health testing long before anyone else. And not all breeds are affected by health problems due to exaggerations.

    What disturbed me afterwards that people were misinterpreting the message and thought that show dogs were unhealthy, cross breeds were better and even pet shop bought puppies were better! - yes I heard all those comments from pet owners.

    The other thing that was misguiding was that although the programme gave the impression that showing was responsible - many of the dogs that were featured were pet bred and not show dogs at all.

    I certainly think it raised some valid points - the state of the GSD was pitiful - the arrogance of 'some' breeders regarding their dogs was also disgraceful, but the show world, like any other is full of all sorts of people.

    It had to highlight the worst cases as that is what good tv is about and how it hits home hard. But it is not the whole story by any means. Interestingly, the labrador was not featured although I understand it was researched. In spite of popular opinion, the evidence of the labrador being an unhealthy breed with their hip problems and going blind was simply not there when looked at in depth. Yes, there are cases, and most come from pet bred/puppy farmed dogs. Yes, IMO, many show labradors are exaggerated and too heavy boned, but that doesn't make them unhealthy, just a preference.

    I think all this did not come across in the hysteria of the programme. Having said that, I doubt PDE would have had the impact it did if the programme had been balanced. I have seen quite a number of programmes on puppy farmers - informative, unemotive - none have had any impact or been talked about except by die hard dog lovers.
     
    Sleeping_Lion likes this.
  18. Nicky10

    Nicky10 PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Messages:
    23,704
    Likes Received:
    1,282
    Hopefully with the new standards they will be moving away from exaggerations and back to dogs that can carry out their original function and can live normally. Would be good to see
     
  19. rocco33

    rocco33 PetForums VIP

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2009
    Messages:
    5,443
    Likes Received:
    770

    A prime example - those boxers were not show bred boxers, they were pet bred.
     
  20. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2009
    Messages:
    21,576
    Likes Received:
    663
    Absolutely agree, unfortunately, I don't think it will happen, because it's just not interesting enough, and won't get the viewing figures. It's sad that sensation sells, but a programme about healthy looking puppies and dogs, although cute, wouldn't get nearly as many viewers as something highlighting deformities and disease in dogs, people are perverse in what they like to watch sometimes, I'm so glad I don't watch television!!
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice