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Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by P.BAKER8, Dec 28, 2007.

  1. P.BAKER8

    P.BAKER8 PetForums Newbie

    Dec 28, 2007
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    Hi My Shitzoo Dor Got With My Yorky Would Anyone Know What The Puppys Will Look Like,i Would Like To Know Thanks
  2. Eolabeo

    Eolabeo Guest


    in the year wile i was up the vet there was a woman who actually bred her shitzuu to her yourkies because she loved the nature they had and the looks.

    Looking at her dogs they had a yorky color and fur but had the shitzuu bottom jaw shape, body and tail lol, very strange combo but i could see both shi and yorky in that combo of dog.

    Then again i truly can't remember what one was the sire and what one was the dam, i spose it depends on which breed is the mum and who they will come out looking most like, please send pics once they are born and old enough to see who they look like. would be very interested to compair what i see up the vets compaired to what yourz are going to look like :D
  3. Brainless

    Brainless Guest

    Like mongrels, some may look more like Yorkies and some more like Shitzu ans some like neither.

    Why not get your bitch spayed and have the pregnancy terminated before it has gone too far, or get the morning after injections.

    There are plenty of crossbred pups to be found at rescue shelters and if your bitch has a litter they could well eventually end up there too when they don't turn out how the owners hoped.

    Near me is an elderly lady who struggles daily walking her Yorkie Lhasa cross. She had bought him as a pure yorkie as that was the size and type of dog she could manage. Instead she has a dog three times the size of a well bred Yorkie and a horrible undershot jaw, who drags her from pillar to post hurting her arthritic hands.

    That is why people choose a purebred, as correctly bred you know within narrow parameters what you are getting.

    Those who are happy to take pot luck can gt a dog from a shelter. At least if it is past puppy-hood what it will look and ac t like has already become apparent.

    There is no excuse for deliberately breeding crossbreeds. If you have entire animals you ensure they cannot get together, and if they do there are actions you can take to prevent a pregnancy.

    Here are some articles that may show you the bigger picture and why you would be best not letting this pregnancy continue: No Puppy Mills Canada - What is a Puppy Mill?

    If you do go ahead you will be a breeder responsible for the lives of these pups for the next 15 years. You should e prepared to take back and find new homes or keep any that end up needing to be re-homed. You will also be responsible legally for any health problems they may have that the parents could have been tested for. In toy breeds this would be slipping Patellas, heart problems, not only your two individuals but studying their parents and grandparents as the genes for all traits don't just show up in the parents but can get passed on recessively. Read this to get a picture of what is involved: GGenetic Counseling, Breeding Management - Tufts Breeding & Genetics 2005

    Do you know what the temperaments of the ancestors were? What if some of the pups turn out to have vicious or neurotic tendencies? Dog-Play: Use this guide to obtain a quality puppy from a responsible breeder

    Here is a list of genetic problems found in your two breeds for which breeding animals need to be tested or research done with the ancestry to avoid using lines that have produced them: Yorkshire terrier - yorkshireterrier Shi Tzu - shihtzu

    For other peoples interest her is the whole resource for all breeds: CIDD - Dog Breeds List you can follow links for more info.
  4. Eolabeo

    Eolabeo Guest

    Quite agree with you T--jay.

    it sounds like it was an accident to me, and to tell the truth unless the sire was wayyyy bigger then the dam which in that case would prove a risk on the female continuing with her pregnancy due to pups being to big, i would'nt noway in hell have her babys aborted.
  5. Brainless

    Brainless Guest

    Was the Boxer well bred.

    I have had 6 of my breed and beyond a pimple on the bum type things have never needed the Vet. One did have a mammary tumour, but that can happen to any entire bitch but in my own breed and lines far less frequently than the oft quoted 1 in two of entire bitches. She is the only one of 6 so far.

    Good and knowledgeable breeding practises reduce the risks of having an unhealthy dog. Sadly if the US figures are similar to UK ones the good breeding is in the minority.

    As for the poor bitch being spayed this is far less traumatic and dangerous than pregnancy whelping and rearing of pups and she will not know anything about it. These ideas are totally anthropomorphic.

    At this stage an injection will probably sort out the issue,a nd she can be spayed 3 months after her season started.
  6. Brainless

    Brainless Guest

    So you advocate the breeding of puppies where nothing has been done to reduce the risks of poor health and temperament, all the important things that go into breeding typical healthy pups suitable as companions.

    The breeder is not only responsible for their bitch but to the owners of these potential puppies.

    I assume you are against human contraception, the morning after pill and abortion, and would wish that all unwanted pregnancies were brought to term and babies adopted?

    After all there are far more people looking to adopt than there are babies available, yet the situation is totally the reverse with companion animals.

    Puppies should only be bred to improve and maintain their breeds, the results of such breeding will make equally good, but far more predictable pets than a chance bred litter from dogs with unknown health background, who may themselves be the results of poor breeding.
  7. Brainless

    Brainless Guest

    I am afraid I do not understand this post, but it appears to have nothing to do with breeding ethically and properly.

    If your saying the bitch is well socialised, then that is good for her, but has nothing to do with her having a litter.

    Has anyone read the links I posted, that will shwo the bigger picture, as people are not seeing that at all.
  8. Eolabeo

    Eolabeo Guest

    WE understand your point and get where your coming from but please stop having ago at people on every thread on the forum.
    We all know about the people that are around that are breeding poor dogs with no thought gone into it and we know that there is shelters all over the place with poor unwanted dogs.

    Sorry to sound so rude.

    And brainless, we really do get your point ok?.

    *waits for the third degree*
  9. carol

    carol PetForums VIP

    Nov 2, 2007
    Likes Received:
    oh you wil loe
    on and on and on
  10. Eolabeo

    Eolabeo Guest


    i do get their point and yes i do agree with them on some points.
    i don't agree with the sad things people are doing to dogs but not all of us are like that., it really does get to the point where some1 goes on abit to often about the same thing time and time again that in the end no notice is taken.
  11. Brainless

    Brainless Guest

    Every registered dog will have a pedigree right back to the start of registration. What matters is knowing what those names mean.

    to the average buyer they are just names. to a breeder each dog named will tell the breeder what traits they had and whether ti was a good idea to put them together.

    There are a lot of poor pedigrees about with no thought as to the individuals in the pedigree.

    A knowledgeable person would soon tell you where a problem came if the lines were known, but chances are in popular breeds the names will be of unknown unseen dogs whose traits are not known.
  12. Brainless

    Brainless Guest

    Well encouraging people to carry on doing things badly is no help at all. This particular situation can be easily remedied using common sense not rose tinted specs.

    I have only posted on the breeding threads where no-one appears to be advocating ethical breeding at all.

    If people do not know any better they will not do any better, and if their actions are not questioned and challenged they will think they are justified and continue.

    I was told this Forum was pro puppy farming and back Yard breeding. Sad if that is so, as people who know no better will assume that such poor standards are the norm among dog breeders.

    I am often stopped in the street and asked when out with my lot whether I am a breeder. I find I cannot answer the question with a simple proud yes, but have to qualify my answer to disassociate myself with the BYB'a and puppy farmers.

    Many new dog owners I meet have an attitude that breeders are unsavoury characters a necessary evil, not people who have their dogs and their owners best interests at heart, not surprising when they meet so many poor examples of breeding.

    There is a saying, If something is worth doing it is worth doing well.

    I would love to know in what other field such poor practises and standards would be generally tolerated.
  13. Jenny Olley

    Jenny Olley PetForums VIP

    Nov 2, 2007
    Likes Received:
    I agree with Loe, Brainless you obviously feel passionate about your subject, and preserving the master race of the "well bred" pedigree dog. Where did all these breeds originate from ? My understanding of canine evolution is dogs where crossed with other dogs, who showed the required working trait needed for such jobs as hunting, herding and retreiving, their appearance being unimportant. When the empasis changed onto breeding for appearance, physical problems started to show in the breeds. I too would like to see less dogs in rescue, well bred or otherwise. What exactly do you mean by well bred ?
  14. Brainless

    Brainless Guest

    Well bred means the dogs adhere to the breed standard for their breed in looks temperament and where appropriate working ability. To get a true picture of this they need to be assessed against their peers and compared with other breeders efforts, this is done at shows and at working arenas where appropriate. It cannot be done out of context on one persons opinion only.

    Through selection the positive traits should be selected for at the same time by pedigree research and health testing for known problems the best effort is made to ensure as is humanly possible to produce sound healthy typical pups any of which should be able to be worked or shown.

    Some pups will show more aptitude for show or work, and be chosen to take part in these activities as well as being companions, the rest will be happy well adjusted companions.

    What the new owner gains by good breeding, is a better chance than dumb luck of a healthy dog with predictable traits, and the lifelong support and knowledge of a reputable breeder to help them raise their puppy to be a member of their family. This process starts with good vetting so that the puppies go to the homes where they will be suited. This also includes the resposibility of rehomng any dogs throughout their lives should they loose their homes.

    To do such a job the would be breeder and stud owner need an in depth knowledge of their breed and the principles of breeding.

    They should be able to look at a pedigree and know the dogs therein their strengths and weaknesses, they are not simply names.

    To begin with the earlier ancestors may only be available to see on photographs and pictures of their offspring.

    By getting to know older breeders around for decades you build up a picture of the dogs their foibles, character traits. You will know how long they lived and what they died of, and if they produced any problem offspring and what was done about these problems to breed them out or reduce their incidence.

    A novice breeder like myself of only 15 years standing is reliant on their mentors (you need several to get a balance as with the best will in the world memories can be selective). I have relied heavily on mentors such as my breeder (who died a few years ago but started her kennel in the early 60's) and others of even longer standing both active and retired.

    This mentorship gives you a reliable framework within which to work initially until you gain sufficient knowledge and experience to progress mainly with your own interpretation and choices, based on what you have learnt.

    I now have mentors who can give me background on the dogs in imported pedigrees when I imported or used foreign dogs I know a lot about the dogs in those pedigrees, and with the Scandinavian ones their working records too.

    Belonging to breed clubs givews you access to a lot of written historical data in old year books and archives, these allow one to track back to where things changed or how lines or even problem areas developed.

    I now have the fifth generation of my own breeding and have owned 6 generations. I can also see how my breeding has worked with other breeders bloodlines, and have exported dogs that have done well for their owners, who trusted my judgement even though more experienced in the breed than I. So I think I am progressing without harming my breed and influencing the gene pool positively. I also number many many of my puppies owners as extended famuily members, though some peopel choose not to stay in such close contact, but I am always here for them.
  15. jan-c

    jan-c Guest

    As you say this was "probably" an accident. The problem is you are putting human attributes on a dog. Whilst we all love our dogs dearly we must remember that they are not little humans.
    No one has thought to ask which of the two is the sire and which is the dam and how old is the bitch?
    Would it be fair if the bitch is say only 6 months old? would it be fair if the pups are too large for her to self whelp and have to have a caesar? Would it be fair if she died giving birth?
    Allowing her to continue and give birth is in fact more dangerous than being speyed.
  16. Brainless

    Brainless Guest

    From the post it would appear that the bitch is the Yorkie quote: "...My Shitzoo Dor Got With My Yorky ..." I assume dor is supposed to be Dog, saying a dog got with, to me indicates the dog Shi Tzu mated the Yorkie bitch.

    Yorkies are a toy breed with higher than normal chances of problems whelping, and with the sire being of a much larger breed the risks to the bitch are high, especially with an inexperienced owner, which this obviously is as the accident would not have occurred.
  17. Debbie

    Debbie PetForums VIP

    Nov 10, 2007
    Likes Received:
    Well you all do know how I feel about cross breeding - so no fear of upsetting anyone anymore with my views - I too agree that taking this poor girl to the vets and getting her the injection would be the better way to go with this - I dont think I need to go into the why its better argument - you all already know why :)
  18. Brainless

    Brainless Guest

    Well even a poorly bred Yorkie is going to be a lot smaller than a Shi Tzu.
  19. Brainless

    Brainless Guest

    Oh just asked my Vet Friend and the drug they now should use to stop a pregnancy right up to day 45 after mating is Alizin.

    Spaying is perfectly safe right up to about five weeks after mating too, as long as the bitch isn't too fat.

    Many Vets prefer to give the jab and then spay half way between seasons if the mating is past the first trimester (first 3 weeks before the embryos attach).

    Here are the manufacturere details of the drug: NOAH Compendium of Animal Medicines: Alizin - Introduction
  20. Eolabeo

    Eolabeo Guest

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