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ownership and breeding

Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by fulwood, Apr 9, 2011.


  1. fulwood

    fulwood PetForums Junior

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    Just been having a discussion with my housemate. Would welcome views if you can follow the story. Basically, my housemate's brother bought a two year old pedigree female lab from the 'onwer' for £600.00. The owner said the papers would follow. The Lab is now pregnant to another Lab, so my housemate's brother chased up the papers from the owner. Turns out the 'owner' he bought the lab from was given the lab by the origianl owner for free, but the original owner kept the papers. The original owner is mad with the second owner for selling the dog on to my housemate's brother, so she won't release the papers. What normally happens in a case like this? x
     
  2. Devil-Dogz

    Devil-Dogz PetForums VIP

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    I am pretty sure that current owner can not do anything - do they even have the dogs pedigree name? Problem is this dog is now pregnant and may well have endorsments on the pedigree...If its even registered.
     
  3. CheekoAndCo

    CheekoAndCo PetForums VIP

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    Don't think anything can be done. Should have asked for the papers at the same time as handing over the cash rather than trusting someone to send the papers on.

    If the bitch or sire of the litter has a breeding restriction then it wouldn't be much use getting the papers anyway as the pups couldn't be registered. All it would prove in mum is KC reg and nothing else.
     
  4. fulwood

    fulwood PetForums Junior

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    I think it's a bad situation. My housemate's brother has the pedigree name so he was able to do research on the line, etc. and says she was 'caught' by his male lab, but I told him if his intention was to mate at the beginning he should have insisted on the papers but the owner said she was in the process of moving and would dig them out and forward. He had no idea that she had been given the dog only a few weeks prefiously so I can understand the original owner being angry (though she was the dogs original owner and not a breeder herself). Basically, the original owner wants money, but my housemate's brother feels he's already paid for the dog to the second owner. It's a real pickle, but I just worry for the dog and the forthcoming litter.
     
  5. Devil-Dogz

    Devil-Dogz PetForums VIP

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    If he knows the pedigree name I would trace the breeder, I would want to know the dog has been passed on.
     
  6. fulwood

    fulwood PetForums Junior

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    He has contacted her. first she wanted money, my mate's brother refused, now she's saying she won't ever release the papers?
     
  7. Devil-Dogz

    Devil-Dogz PetForums VIP

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    I thought you said the orginal owner wanted the money and was holding on to the papers, and the orginal owner was not the breeder? I am a wee bit confused :eek:
     
  8. CheekoAndCo

    CheekoAndCo PetForums VIP

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    He can't really be sure if it's even the right name he has been given.

    I can see how the breeder would be upset if the dog is pregnant but they may possibly be trying to make some money themself out of the girl being pregnant. Could be why they are asking for money for the papers.
     
  9. fulwood

    fulwood PetForums Junior

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    sorry. I get what you're saying now (will the breeder be able to help???) I forgot that he's not gone back to the breeder. The original owner as I'm calling her was a woman and man going through a divorce. The man left, the woman couldn't keep the lab, so gave it to a lady without the papers. The lady she gave it to, sold it to my housemate's brother a few weeks after getting it.
     
  10. Ditsy42

    Ditsy42 PetForums VIP

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    Aye me 2 but I have had a bottle of the Red stuff :D
     
  11. fulwood

    fulwood PetForums Junior

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    I'm calling the original owner the couple who had it from 8 weeks, paid for it and got the papers with no restrictions
     
  12. Devil-Dogz

    Devil-Dogz PetForums VIP

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    Its worth contacting the breeder - even if just to tell them where the dog is not, she/he bred the dog and will be able to advise your friend.
     
  13. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    Actually - much as I don't want to encourage irresponsible breeding (I am working on the assumption both parents have been fully healthtested) - if you contact the KC and explain the circumstances - IF the dog is registered and you can clarify the dog's kennel name, they should lift any endorsements because the facts were not made clear to you at the time of buying her.

    How you deal with the change of ownership in the KC's eyes I have no idea - you will need to take advice from them

    It may have been an idea to check all this out before getting the bitch in whelp.
     
  14. Sled dog hotel

    Sled dog hotel PetForums VIP

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    Assuming the original owner had the dog registered with the kennel club in his name, without him handing over the papers and signing them so that your housemate can re-register the dog in his name you cant do anything. Even if both parents are KC registered the pups cant be without the parents paperwork being in order I dont think. There may even be an exemption on the dam or sires pedigrees anyway put on by the original breeder, along the lines of progeny not eligible for registration, in which case without the breeder of the dogs lifting the restriction the pups still cant be registered anyway.

    Personally I dont blame the original owner for keeping back the papers, or the fact that he is absolutely fuming, If I had given a dog to someone thinking I had found a forever good home, only to find she had been sold on, I wouldnt be too chuffed too.
     
  15. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    Yes :( there are always two sides to a story :( the present owner can't be blamed for what happened there - although it would have been wise to be asking these questions before the bitch was in whelp
     
    #15 swarthy, Apr 9, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2011
  16. fulwood

    fulwood PetForums Junior

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    I agree, but they're not so much naive as a collective family (my housemate and his lot) but eternally trusting of other people's word. I know the second owner is to blame and her selling a dog given to her after a few weeks seems wrong, but what's worse is promosising to send the papers on when she didn't even have them in her possession.
     
  17. Devil-Dogz

    Devil-Dogz PetForums VIP

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    I knew about the KC lifting endorsments - but dont you have to have them in your name to do that? and you cant if paperwork was not handed over?
     
  18. Sled dog hotel

    Sled dog hotel PetForums VIP

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    Im not blaming the guy whos got the dog now, although on hindsight before parting with his money the wise thing to do would be to get everything in order before hand, but ifs an ands etc.
    The orginal owner too has obviously tried to protect the dog or so they thought by not passing on the paperwork.
    Its the one in the middle whos took it for nothing and sold her on after a couple of weeks for £600 whos the real problem here. They have blantantly lied,they knew full well they didnt have/cant get the paper work, they have lied to both the original owner and the OPs housemate.
    Dont suppose he got a written document confirming the sale and price from the person did he? That might stand for something if he at least has a written dated receipt for the purchase.
     
  19. fulwood

    fulwood PetForums Junior

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    yeah he got a written receipt. It's the dogs I'm worried for. Pedigree litters are hard enough to sell to good homes these days and with no papers, it's harder. He could take the person he bought it off to court and get his 600 quid back, but that's not going to make the dog unpregnant or make the pups prospects any better. Only the papers (so it would seem) would give them a better chance of good homes and give the two year some stability also.
     
  20. swarthy

    swarthy PetForums VIP

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    As I said in my second post, they would have to take advice from the KC on this :(

    Very frustrating position for all concerned by the sounds of it -and as I've mentioned before, being on the frustrating end of breeding endorsements with a stud I wanted to use - I know how complicated things can get :(

    I 'gave' a friend one of my pups - she was going to show it in France and hopefully - subject to health tests, breed it - she did start showing and the pup did very well - but things didn't work out because of my friends own poor health :(

    She has kept me posted every step of the way and even offered her back to me but I wouldn't dream of it - as far as I am concerned she is hers now - she did me a massive favour at a difficult time in my life, and the pup was just some small way of saying thanks.

    ====================================

    OP, I hope your friends can manage to find some resolution to a situation which sounds like it is not directly (through naivety on their part) their fault or the fault of the breeder :(
     
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