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Discussion in 'Dog Chat' started by Mazzawa, Feb 10, 2012.


  1. Mazzawa

    Mazzawa PetForums Newbie

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    Hey everyone,

    Some of you may remember that I posted a couple of weeks ago about getting a pup. Well she is here and we love her to bits!

    However...

    We took her to the vets yesterday for her checkup and first vaccs and upon inspection it has transpired that her lower canines are misaligned so they are digging into the gum above rather than wrapping around the outside. This means, according to the experts (I go to the local vet school so high caliber of staff I hope!), that her adult teeth will follow the same route, causing her pain and requiring surgery (it will also stunt the growth of the lower jaw due to the teeth locking in). We were recommended by the vet to be referred to an animal orthodontist as they have lots of experience in the procedure (more complicated than just pulling the teeth out) and after a lot of thought we have decided to go ahead with this. Since this is a condition from birth no insurance company will cover it so this will be out of our own pockets to the tune of £400.

    What I was hoping for was to get your opinions on where we stand with this? Ultimately we have been sold a "faulty" puppy that is not truly fit and healthy. Now the breeders are very reputable and have been breeding for decades, win countless awards etc and we do not want to irritate them as we respect them. However, having called them after the initial consultation with the vets and explained what we were told, we were told it was rubbish and that the breed has narrower lower jaws and that they have never had a dog with any problems after puppyhood. Its worth noting that this litter is the first to be bred from a new stud they have. The condition is a genetic condition, but a recessive gene so only 1 in 4 pups in the litter would get it.

    Where do we stand? What do we do?!

    I hope that was all clear enough. We're really upset about this having paid a high price for her being a rare breed.

    All help welcome :)
     
  2. delca1

    delca1 PetForums VIP

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    Congratulations on your new arrival, any chance of photos? :D What breed is she?
    I have no idea of what you can do, sorry, but I bet you'll get plenty of good advice from others on here!
     
  3. StaffsRmisunderstood

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    i wouldnt have much respect for this breeder i am afraid...both the sire (stud) and dam (mother) should firstly have been health screened before the breeding took place and as this is the first time the stud has been used and the vets have said and i agree that the condition is a genetic defect then it is pretty obvious the stud is at fault... as a reputable breeder they should atleast offer to pay half the expenses of the orthodontic procedures! i would expect this if it were me who had purchased a pup from them,,, also the kennel club need to be informed of the breeder and the defect as this is bad practice and bad breeding! :nono: .... this isnt a healthy pup im afraid and usualy this type of defect indicates inbreeding in other words incest mother to son breedings and father to daughter breedings also brother sister breedings can have the same issues... i would advise u to contact the breeder again and demand some type of assistance with the expense of treatment or part-refund for the cost of the pup and report them to the kennel club... this pup will suffer as a result of there irresponsible breeding and this isnt fair :nonod: ...
     
  4. CavalierOwner

    CavalierOwner PetForums VIP

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    Was the puppy vet checked with the breeders vets before you brought her home? If so, did you see proof of this? Is she had been vet checked then surely the vet would have seen this problem and told the breeder, who should have informed you.
     
  5. Mazzawa

    Mazzawa PetForums Newbie

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    Thanks for this. However, in support of the breeder the genetic condition is not caused by inbreeding and there is no way of knowing if the dam or sire have the gene. Both had perfect teeth when we saw them so I do not think the breeder has been irresponsible - we have seen the family trees of both dogs and they come from other sides of the world! Very unfortunate that they both carry the recessive gene that has become apparent in our little one.

    This is why we are in such a predicament!
     
  6. Dylan & Daisy

    Dylan & Daisy PetForums VIP

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    I know this may not be what you want to do but weren't you told by the breeder that you could take pup to the vet for an initial check-up (to satisify yourself about its health), then if there was any issue you could return the pup? This options was given to me.

    If you've decided to keep her no matter what, then I don't think (though im not 100% sure) that you have any comeback ie i doubt they will pay for or re-imburse you any vet bills, for treatment in the future.
     
  7. Helbo

    Helbo PetForums VIP

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    Did you have any written contract with the breeder?

    Usually if the puppy has a birth defect/condition thats found during the puppy check at the vets then the breeder should take the puppy back into their possession, if thats what you want.

    But, they usually won't help pay for any treatment you decide to go ahead with if you're choosing to keep the puppy despite the defect.
     
  8. Mazzawa

    Mazzawa PetForums Newbie

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    Thanks for all the replies so far. We will be keeping her regardless of her faults, and certainly had this been picked up two weeks down the line the insurance would have kicked in and taken care of it. What we are concerned about is the fact that we have paid full price for slightly damaged goods. She is part of the family already and we wouldn't want to change that, I guess we feel a bit hard done by. I havent approached the breeder regarding the finances and will wait until I have the official report from the orthodontist before contacting them again and then I guess the ball is in their court. I do genuinely believe that they are good and honest people that care the world about their dogs, but I also hope that they listen/read the report and perhaps not breed the pair again.

    I guess we just need to clarify what our rights are! Very confusing area.
     
  9. Mese

    Mese PetForums VIP

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    Either they are great breeders who did all they could to ensure healthy puppies ... or they were lax in not making sure that this gene was present in both the sire and dam :confused:

    Either way their attitude towards what the vets have said isnt very good
     
  10. emmaviolet

    emmaviolet PetForums VIP

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    hi there just a suggestion, communicate if poss to the breeder via email, you should do this to have written proof of everything they say ie. if they agree to having it fixed and paying for it you have the evidence.

    alfie had a hernia when we took him to the vets after getting him, i didnt even know about them even though i had dogs for 25 years as never had one with one and the vet told me. i was so annoyed as the breeder was reputable, bred the bob winner at crufts and was highly recommended by others too. she told me he was vet checked, and healthy in every way throughout our plans to have him and when we go him.
    i couldnt phone her as i was annoyed and instead emailed. she agreed to pay for the repair op.

    when i called about legal rights they told me to communicate this way as it was proof, i had just done it as i couldnt bare to speak to her as i was so upset! as you have paid it is the same as goods and you can demand either replacement, repair or refund, this are your rights as a consumer.

    hoped this helped.
     
    DoggieBag likes this.
  11. Mazzawa

    Mazzawa PetForums Newbie

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    Emmaviolet - thank you so much! This is exactly why I come on this forum, lots of very helpful people! Good to know that someone else has been in the same situation.

    I was planning to email the breeder after the operation but perhaps I should take a deep breath and send a nice email this weekend letting them know our intentions and explaining the situation, with a follow up email once it has been done. We will receive a post-op report from the specialist which I can forward to them for their information. I would like to keep this as pleasant as possible and do not wish to fall out with them.
     
  12. emmaviolet

    emmaviolet PetForums VIP

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    aww thanks glad to be of some help!

    yes just do it in a nice tone and say would you be prepared to pay for the reconstruct in a nice manner, i was tempted to be rude but for some reason i didnt!

    i felt horrible as i was already upset having lost my last dog to cancer then alfie was ill and had a hernia i was devastated but hes fine now and cant imagine living without him.

    glad to help you though!
     
  13. 5rivers79

    5rivers79 PetForums VIP

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    Dogs are seen as goods under law and therefore fall under the Sale of Goods Act. If the pup is 'faulty' and not fit for purpose you may be able to make a claim under the small claims court or even take it further and get your vet bills recovered from the breeder. Might be a good idea to contact a legal professional. Goodluck.
     
  14. pickle

    pickle PetForums Senior

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    Mazzawa what breed is your puppy? You said she is a rare breed, just wondering.
     
  15. Sleeping_Lion

    Sleeping_Lion Banned

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    I'm wondering if I've missed something about recessive genes accounting for such a defect in the development of the jaw, because it's the first time I've heard of it at all. Rhuna had a very slightly undershot jaw when I got her at 14 weeks of age, and it's pretty much sorted itself out now, as not all the bones grow at exactly the same rate. As for hernias, I've known of loads of pups have minor hernias that at most, have needed a tiny repair, it's not uncommon at all, and doesn't mean the pup is *faulty*.

    I'd be interested to know what breed it was simply because I'm intrigued by the genetic link and the statistics that say one in four pups will have this condition; is there actually a test for the parents that confirms they both have this recessive gene? If not, then I think you're on a hiding to nothing I'm afraid.

    Apols if I've misread anything, I'm in a bit of a rush today as I've got a lot of work on atm :eek:
     
  16. Manoy Moneelil

    Manoy Moneelil PetForums VIP

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    Reading between the lines a bit; you are happy to keep the dog as is (repaired) but seek recompense to compensate for damaged goods and offset the repair bill.

    If the breeder will not meet your request your recourse is to the KC and through the small claims court.

    Not pretty but if the breeder seeks to keep a clean profile within the industry your only leverage to reluctance on their part is to take lots of pictures and post a web-site with all the details and name the sire/dam and the problems encountered and costs involved.

    If the breeder understands the impact of such negative publicity they will work with you to reach a full and final settlement. (So consider what you want and write it down in a contract.)
     
  17. CavalierOwner

    CavalierOwner PetForums VIP

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    Surely if the puppy had been vet checked while she was with the breeder, the breeder would have already known about the problem???
     
  18. emmaviolet

    emmaviolet PetForums VIP

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    hi there it was my puppy who had a hernia.

    the condition is a fault and if it gets bad can be ugly, i had never seen a pup with one and the vet put a shock into me about them.

    alfies is small and touch wood is fine and doesnt bother him so we have not had it fixed as dont really want him to have an op.

    i was just upset as the breeder did not tell me about it and said she hadnt noticed it when an experienced breeder should of and clearly she did. also his mum had one and so shouldnt have been bred from.

    i called the kennel club who said a bitch should not be bred from with a hernia as it puts her and the pups at risk.

    just telling you what happened, its not a big deal but a puppy shouldnt have one.
     
  19. Leanne77

    Leanne77 PetForums VIP

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    I'm interested to know the breed too as the words 'rare' and having problems with the teeth and jaw conjure up a breed in my mind...
     
  20. cheekyscrip

    cheekyscrip Pitchfork blaster

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    I second that ..what breed your pup is?
     
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