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Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by holly2009, Mar 25, 2011.
Deleted due to closing account! Cat forum is full of nasty bully's!
Well you certainly sound like you've done your homework and are patient and clever enough to plan ahead. I can't see any problems. You're lucky you've got your bitches' breeder at hand for help. Did they help you choose the studs? I wouldn't know where to look first, but by the sounds of it, you're very well prepared!
Hi Holly and welcome 2 the forum
Judging by your post u r doing everything possible and what is expected in good breeding practises, great u have your breeder as a mentor as well, do u show now or is it something u want to get into at a later date, hence keeping something back
Hi and welcome i would just like to say!!!!!!!!!! how refreshing your post is! well done! and good luck
Thanks everyone, im not one to go into things lightly, I need to know everything I can before hand & be well prepared!
Yes my breeder has suggested a stud...actually I asked her opinion on one I liked the look of (solid boy) Holly is Orange roan, Id looked into colours etc & the pups would be solid, her breeder thought the stud was a lovely dog as she had met him however I should stay with particolours and mate Her with a like dog! so come the time I will get back intouch and see who would be suitable (her owner use to show, has 30 years experience, lovely lady)
I havent showed so far as I really want to start at puppy stage, at the time we got Holly my little one was a bit small for travelling about etc so didnt get the time. Hopefully all being well with the planning etc my youngest will be at nursery/school, I dont work so Im a full time mummy who will soon have lots of free time for doggies
Interested in any Do's & Dont's from breeding, before/during/after
I've just been through it lol, I own my girlie in partnership with my breeder who is also a dear friend, the litter have been born here with me at home, 10 Rott poopies, all adorable, lots of highs and lows, bit like being on a roller coaster if i'm totally honest, we have been there at all stages, from picking stud to travelling for the mating, birthing etc, very very hard work so not fo rthe faint hearted
Pups are 4.5 weeks old now teeth monsters they r lol, Cara still fedidng a few times a day but they r on solids now, now have to get Cara fit and up to show fitness fo rnext month
I'm SO happy to see somebody coming on the forum who has actually done their research!!! Welcome! I'm sure you'll be a grand addition to the forum
Just one thing, you say she's a good example of the breed, has that been confirmed by a judge experienced with your breed? Baring in mind your breeder could be biased Just if you're wanting to keep a dog back to show you should be sure, same with the stud of course.
Will you be getting her hip scored?
Ahhh so refreshing. I think I love you
Hi shrap, no I wasn't planning on getting her hip scored, her dad has a very good hipscore & I'm only going to go with a stud with a good hip score! Do you think this is enough? I don't want to waste money! Not that it's an issue of course!
Hmm good point about the breeder being biased, I do feel she has the dogs best interest at heart, I asked her frankly about different pointers and she agreed she would make a good breeding bitch (she won't be making anything out of it) we will only be having one litter.
Hi Ditsy, how exciting, I'm sure it's a lot of hard work....bet they are becoming very chunky monkeys
If its a new and up coming thing in your breed then it will be worth it... after all people do these "new" tests because a problem has been identified within the breed. Its not uncommon for low scoring parents to produce a high scoring pup.
Hi its sounds like you are doing all the right things, but I would definitely get her hip scored. Some stud dog ownrs should insist on it. I personally would not buy a dog without its parents being hip scored if the breed recomends it. Also the earlier you get this done the better. She does have to be at least 1 though I think
AB Scheme strongly recommends Hip Scoring and something called gonioscopy
I would still go to a couple of open shows, enter your bitch and see how you get on.
Yeah I second the hip scoring thing too. I have retrievers who have elbow problems too not sure if cockers do as well. But you can get hips and elbows done together or just hips as they need to be at least lightly sedated. This is something you can do and get an accurate score result from about 12 months old so you can just do it in preparation kind of a thing to make sure she is OK.
My dog's dam had hips of 6:6 (totalling 12) and his sire of 5:8 (totalling 13). One of my dog's half siblings on his sire's side had hips totalling 49 even though his dam was also below breed average That was why I got my boy scored and luckily he is OK etc, but it can skip generations kind of a thing, its not really known exactly how hip dysplasia occurs re genetics/environment.
I do like cockers, especially solid colours but I think they are a bit too much hard work for me, if you could make them less stubborn I would have one in a heart beat but I don't think I have the willpower for one :laugh:
Well done for all your research so far :thumbup:
Hip scoring is a bit of a funny one, people who have had cockers for years haven't had any problems with hips, and yet suddenly, it's being recommended and there's even a new 'group' that promotes cocker health. I'd say if you don't know your lines that well, so you're not sure of the condition of the hips of the dogs behind your girl, then definitely hip score, it's not enough to rely on the low score of the stud dog.
Gonioscopy has been mentioned, definitely needs doing.
Good luck, I hope it all goes smoothly for you
In my opinion, if breeders are starting to hipscore in your breed - then it's because there is an actual or perceived issues (with the increasing number of tests - no breeders are going to subject their dogs to tests for the sake of it - they go through enough as it is) - so yes, on that basis, I would get her scored - it gives you an advantage when finding homes for the pups - and also - if her scores are poor, you know not to put her through a pregnancy - which could have a detrimental effect on her overall health.
Unfortunately - hip problems are not always visible to the naked eye - I've seen dogs with scores in the 70s+ but you would never know there was anything wrong with them - putting a bitch through a pregnancy in such a situation could easily and quickly change that
I've got a girl here - no history of hip problems - but her hips are terrible -you would never know - but while scoring is commonplace in my own breed - if I hadn't tested her - I could have done untold damage to her through carrying a litter
It's interesting what people say about breeder blindness - in my experience, breeders are often more critical of their own dogs - however - it's not necessarily whether she could succeed in the showring - the key is in what she produces - and contrary to popular belief - some dogs consistently produce progeny far superior to themselves - and likewise - some don't produce offspring as good as them - so only breeding from the best is a 'nice idea' - but is actually a perception rather than a fact.
If your dog is KC registered, has a reasonable to good pedigree, looks like her breed, passes all the required health tests for the breed (including IMHO hipscores) - and you understand enough about the breed to try and improve on her by using the right stud (I say try because nature doesn't always play ball) - then you are in a much much better position than many others starting out. You also have a good mentor - which is invaluable - treasure them.
You will be producing healthy happy puppies who will hopefully go on to have full healthy and happy lives with their new owners - while you continue to learn about the strengths and weaknesses of your breed and the joys (and heartache) the showring can bring. It's a much much better footing than many start out with.
I wish you the best of luck - refreshing to see someone doing the right things and asking the right questions for a change.
PS: If you do decide to hipscore (and I hope you do) - then I would recommend you ask around to find a vet that takes good plates - some would be shocked at how easy it is to make a good set of hips look (and score) bad by an inexperienced vet - and I have witnessed this in the extreme (thankfully not one of my own dogs).
I do a 4 hour round trip to get my dogs scored, and know of others who travel much further.
We breed show type cocker spaniels, there are a few do's and don'ts.
You shouldn't mate partis to solids as you run the risk of getting mismarks and if you intend to show then you could end up with no pups that can be shown successfully, it tends to be pet breeders who do this.
The BMS has recently gone down 2 points I think from 15 to 13 so I don't think it's because there's a massive problem.
It's great that someone is going about it the right way for a change :001_smile:.
You can't take a breed average with such a low number of dogs scored and make such a statement
When you consider that Cockers are the second most common breed registered with the KC pretty much year on year, the numbers scored are still very low (69000 less cockers scored than Labradors) - yet the median for Labs is lower - our breed average and 5 year average are just 1 point higher than Cockers. The range in Cockers is from 0 to 99 - so very nearly as bad as it gets.
If you look at the very early days of hipscoring in Labs - you will see the average was low before it started to build - this is probably because responsible breeders started testing first and typically had fewer problems in their breeding lines.
That isn't to say there is or isn't a problem in cockers - but as I said in my original post - while we aim to be responsible - I am sure one breeder didn't suddenly think - oh - I will hipscore my dogs, and a handful of others decided to follow suit - there MUST have been a reason behind breeders starting to score and the KC making scoring a strong recommendation.
If you look at some of the other breeds, many larger with similar numbers scored (and lower numbers of dogs registered) - some are in the same region, some are higher - but quite a few are lower.
It will really take quite an increase in breeders scoring to get a handle on a reliable breed average - there are now around 40% more Labs scored than any other breed - and safe to say - the average IS reliable.
Having said all that - people would do well to understand what the word 'average' actually means. These tests should give us tools we can work with to breed responsibly - not for puppy buyers to run screaming down the hill saying omg - the bitch's hipscore was 2 above the breed average - so all the puppies will get Hip Dysplasia (and yes, I've pretty much seen this type of response ) - that is until their own dog scores slightly higher - and amazingly - some attitudes change dramatically at that point
In truth (and based on factual research) - breeding from a bitch with a high hipscore is more likely to have a detrimental effect on the bitch than the outcome of the puppies hips - that should be sufficient to stop responsible breeders.
Plus - if the parents have good scores - while it may still be a concern (and I hate the first 12 months of having puppies on the ground) - if something does happen and you have done everything in your power to produce healthy pups and advise on correct diet and exercise - your conscience is then clear that you have done the best you possibly can - and in reality - that is all any of us can do.
Hip scoring is a recently introduced recommendation for cockers, & as such the numbers of dogs tested will be relatively small compared to other breeds where hips have been common place for alot longer. This in turn perhaps makes the numbers less reliable as an indicator.
The other point to consider in regards this is that as matings with parents of good hip scores can produce pups with higher scores, looking at ancestry is not as straight forward as health tests such as FN, PRA. So i would still get her hip scored if possible.
You have obviously done alot of homework, & aren`t just jumping in blind. So well done to you
Thanks for all the info on hip scoring I will definitely investigate further, I've got an appointment with the vets for a general check up & boosters so will see what they say ( although I haven't found a vet I trust 100% yet)
With regards solid v parti matings my dogs breeder put me straight right away :nono:
As Swarthy's already posted, make sure you get a vet who is experienced at taking the plates. A previous vet mucked up Indie's elbow plates and they had to be done again, and I'm not sure just how good the plates were that they sent off eventually. I won't make that mistake again, it's not worth risking your dog going through a GA for someone to muck it all up because they haven't got enough experience/knowledge.
Well I'm not long back from the vets! She said that she doesn't see the need, she's never done one for a cocker! She would for labs etc breeds prone to problems! She wouldn't be happy to put her through an unnecessary GA! :glare:
She also said to mate her on her coming season! As she looks like they maybe yearly seasons she may not take the first time, get a stud close buy so we can visit twice! Holly will be two in June! Phuugh! I dunno!