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Older dog NOT standing up to pup.

Discussion in 'Dog Chat' started by Werehorse, Feb 3, 2012.


  1. Werehorse

    Werehorse PetForums VIP

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    I'm starting to get quite concerned. Oscar has completely stopped standing up to Hugo AT ALL. To the point where whenever Hugo tries to instigate play Oscar runs away. They played nicely together to start with but now Oscar just looks harrassed/worried then legs it (over the babygate which he has discovered he can jump!).

    At the same time Oscar is tolerating Hugo near him more and has stopped automatically moving off the sofa when Hugo gets on. :confused: But as soon as Hugo puts any teeth on him Oscar is vamoosed. Which is fair enough because Hugo seems to think that hanging on Oscar's ears and playing tug with them is an okay thing to do (Oscar tolerated it at first and played back). It's a bit like Oscar is teaching Hugo bite inhibition the Dunbar way... tolerating less and less.

    I'm just really surprised that Oscar is not actually "telling him off", just running away. Oscar will still defend his dinner and his chews and Hugo respects that and keeps his distance but he doesn't seem to be getting the "leave me alone" message from Oscar's disappearing act.

    I've started putting Hugo in his crate when he has chased Oscar away?? Do you think this is the right thing to do? On the one hand I kind of think "let them sort it themselves". But on the other I hate seeing Oscar "upset" and isolating himself away from us and basically want to stop Hugo taking advantage of Oscar's good nature and beating him up/driving him away.

    Does any of this make any sense? Oscar's behaviour seems unusual to me - I fully expected that he would tell Hugo off a bit more. Does anyone have any ideas on how to handle it? Opinion on whether timing out Hugo when he chases Oscar away is a good approach?
     
  2. Nonnie

    Nonnie PetForums VIP

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    I don't think all dogs will tbh. Many seem to just take it, even if its really painful or stresses them out.

    I think it would be best if you ended it, either via a time out or distraction when its obvious that Oscar has had enough.
     
  3. grandad

    grandad PetForums VIP

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    You need to intervene.
     
  4. Souris

    Souris PetForums Senior

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    We're having similar issues (although not quite as bad as yours): Eira keeps trying to initiate play with Pixel, they'll play nicely for about five minutes and then she'll try to bite his tail (which he hates), and he'll dash off. He's also not 'telling her off' for biting at present (presumably because he has his coat, so he doesn't feel it as much), which makes bite inhibition a bit difficult at times as play= try to bite.

    I'm reading this thread eagerly for any other suggestions, but one I came up with is a "calm down" queue for the pair of them. I keep an eye on them, and then every so often tell them to "calm down" which means drop what you're doing and come to me. Because she's so food orientated (and as of such he is now because heaven's forbid she gets a treat and he doesn't), they both come back and sit down in front of me.

    It just gives them a few seconds to calm down, and if she's really hyper I can give her a time out at this point. I do keep my eye on Pixel and her at all times when they're playing: I brought her into this house so it's really not very fair on Pix if she's just making his life horrid at times. He loves playing with her, but there are times when she's a bit much for him, and it's at those points that I step in.
     
  5. Rhiannon68

    Rhiannon68 PetForums Member

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    We have something similar with my two, Oz is 6 likes to play for about 5 mins then cba with it, Lulu is 8 months and can go on for hours, when Oz has had enough he does put her in her place but if she continues which she does most of the time I put her outside and say time out. Some nights its like Picadilly circus, in and out, but I hope she will at some pint get the message. They both have lots of toys and plenty of walks etc. Just have to keep persevering
     
  6. Werehorse

    Werehorse PetForums VIP

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    What kind of intervention would you suggest?
     
  7. grandad

    grandad PetForums VIP

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    Quite simply, Do not agree with it and then remove the offender. Say NO ans then herd the offending dog out of the room.
     
  8. Leanne77

    Leanne77 PetForums VIP

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    I'm watching this thread with interest as I met up with a friend today and she has a 3 month old pup and a 5 year old dog and the same is happening there and she asked my advice. I couldnt really offer any because I had the same thing when I had a pup and an older dog (although my older dog was only 17 months) and older dog got bullied and to this day remains under Flynn's proverbial thumb!
     
  9. H0lly

    H0lly PetForums VIP

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    Im also watching this thread with interest as at the moment Otis is still very much on puppy licence, I leave them play for 5 mins at a time and then stop them and calm them both down,

    Will watch and gather tips, Hope Oscar and Hugo work it out :) xx
     
  10. Sled dog hotel

    Sled dog hotel PetForums VIP

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    I have seen that Ploy used on a Pup by another older dog, they totally ignore the pup even just walking off and leaving them, mostly they do it when the pup is hyped up and going to be a right pain in The "A". Then usually once pup has got the message that the behaviour insnt going to be "entertained" in any way shape or form, the older dog then usually starts to allow play but then still usually decides when to start and when to finish the game.

    Im assuming though of course dont know, that when he does tolerate and allow the younger one near him now, its when the younger one is being calmer and sensible and only when he is being like that. If thats the case then it makes sense what he is doing. Ignore him when he doesnt like his behaviour gives way when he does.

    Quite rightly he is defending his dinner and chews, and making a point and boundaries there. I would try though to avoid this situation, I take it the pups paying heed to this and not pushing his luck with the food and chews at the moment? If so thats good, but come a time in the future he may challenge back, therefore I wouldnt set them up to possibly fail in the future.
    Plenty of space, supervised meals, either at opposite end of the kitchen or either side of a baby gate with loads of room. No eyeing up each others stuff, when finished bowls up and out the way before allowing them close together access. If your older one doent feel he has to have to guard, and can eat in peace, and they both have their own forever spaces to eat with loads of room, you should never get to a challenge in the future. Same with chews supervised only plenty of space between them.

    Usually what happens when a pup pushes his luck and doesnt heed the ignoring or the other dog walking away from him, the other dog, will take it a step further, growl, show the pup a faceful of teeth but not make contact,
    he may also air snap, then possibly lunge and chase pup off. If your older one isnt doing this any time and pup is still in his face and wont take heed, then you need to back the older dog up, and remove pup from the situation to calm down.

    If your older one, entertained him straight away when he arrived and started playing with him rather then drawing up boundaries from the start, he may have now realised his mistake. The younger may now be taking liberties and the older is now stuck what to do, again therefore you need to back him up and help give the pup boundaries if he is not up to the job.
     
    #10 Sled dog hotel, Feb 4, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2012
  11. cinnamontoast

    cinnamontoast Sois pas chiant, chéri.

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    This. My older dog tolerated the puppies annoying him and I told them off. Now he gets annoyed with them and is more confident about sticking up for himself.

    It's easy to let a puppy take the mick, especially with well behaved older dogs. I would tell off the puppy and remove him from the situation for time out and to calm down and give the older dog some one on one attention.
     
  12. Werehorse

    Werehorse PetForums VIP

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    Thank you, you've summed it up really well - particularly the bits I have bolded.

    Regards the food - the pup took heed immediately and hasn't pushed his luck at all after the first couple of times. I feed them in seperate rooms and at present neither are showing any sign of interest in the other's dinner until it is finished then they go and check out each other's bowls (I may actually put a stop to that and lift bowls as soon as each one is done to avoid potential conflict - especially as Hugo gets older).

    Regards the harassment (!) I've stepped in and started timing Hugo out when he causes Oscar to make an escape over the baby gate. He goes in his crate, Oscar gets let back in and then a minute later I let him out again. If it continues for more than about three times straight after each other Hugo is getting a longer time out to properly calm down... I haven't kind of sorted all the rules yet but Hugo is starting to respond to a simple "ah-ah" correction and stop biting Oscar's ear without needing to time him out.

    So far so good I have to say. Hugo is being calmer around Oscar, Oscar has come out of hiding and even initiated some play this morning. :) Hopefully they will continue to improve - we'll see. Will keep you updated.
     
  13. Sled dog hotel

    Sled dog hotel PetForums VIP

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    To be honest, I wouldnt let them lick each others empty bowls either and would pick them up and out the way. It could well be that it will not be needed. They will sort themselves out (with your help now too).

    The only reason I have added a note of caution is purely because situations can change and you can get rocky patches along the way, especially with two same sexes. When your younger ones puppy licence expires (assuming it hasnt already) what an older dog will take off a pup isnt the same as he/she will take of an hormonal adolescent. Likewise an adolsecent can get a bit lairy and push his luck and an older one can be goaded into a squabble or fight because of that. They could all be laid back and you will have no bother and there wont be any push and shove, but doesnt hurt to be cautious and remove anything that can rock the boat.

    Usually if anything will cause a squabble or a fight number one is usually food,
    and things like chews, next comes things like attention, confined spaces, times of hyper excitement like visitors coming and things like leads coming out for walks. As I say it could all go smoothly and with no problems but with dogs its always handy to be one step ahead just in case.
     
  14. Werehorse

    Werehorse PetForums VIP

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    Thank you again. :) I'm keeping a close eye on them and will keep an even closer eye as Hugo gets older. I'm pretty sure we won't have a fight for "top dog" spot even when the puppy-pass runs out. Oscar is very laid back and I think he'll be perfectly happy to step aside for Hugo in most situations - the potential problem is, as you say, Hugo pushing his advantage and backing Oscar into a corner regarding food or similar. But even given my expectations I am more likely to be over-cautious than not cautious enough so hopefully I can prevent most problems before they start. :) I think I was just getting a bit confused because "they'll sort it out themselves" has been the consensus of advice I'd been given so far.

    Just before I started typing this Hugo approached Oscar very, very carefully and very, very carefully tried to lie down next to him for a snuggle. Oscar got up and moved away but not immediately - maybe a sign of some progress. :)
     
  15. Sled dog hotel

    Sled dog hotel PetForums VIP

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    When Kobi came as an 11 week old pup, I had Daisy who I still have and another Siberian Laska. First few days, Daisy wouldnt have anything to do with him at all walked off didnt want to know. As soon as he got in he jumped on Laskas back, she whipped her head round showed him her teeth and snarled at him. From that minute on he showed her nothing but respect,
    she allowed him to sit with her and mothered him but he had to be a good boy:D
    Thats the two of them in my Avatar picture.
    After a few days Daisy on the other hand entertained and played with him no boundaries, and soon realised her mistake and after that he was merciless.
    When she did try to tell him off, it was too late most of the time he would carry on regardless, so I used to step in and back her up to say enough because her life would have been a misery otherwise when he was younger. It just goes to how though how two different dogs handling a pup in two different ways and what a difference it can make to how the pup behaves with each.
     
  16. Twiggy

    Twiggy PetForums VIP

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    They will sort themselves out honest. I'm in the same situation at the moment with my pup and old girls, although to be fair the pup has a lovely nature and just wants to be friends with them. Nonetheless she is simply not allowed to jump all over or harass Quiver, who is now 13.1/2 yrs old and a bit stiff.

    Rightly or wrongly I intervene and say something like "Oi (in true Grandad fashion) we don't do that".
     
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