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Need urgent recall advice!

Discussion in 'Dog Chat' started by amynorange1, Apr 15, 2014.


  1. amynorange1

    amynorange1 PetForums Newbie

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    Hi everyone!
    I wonder if any of you could help me. I have a 14month old DDB and he is really well behaved mostly. He's a really nervous dog, but gets on so well with other dogs and just wants to play. However, his recall is not good. He used to have a pretty good recall, but since getting older he has become more stubborn and if he's off lead and he wants to go sniff something or if he has seen another dog then I no-longer exist. It is really frustrating because I want him to have off lead time but I worry, also because he is a large dog, that he won't listen to me when I call him back. I've tried all sorts and all the tips I would give to people when I teach recalls, to no avail. He isn't food/toy motivated either, which makes his training more difficult.
    Please does anyone out there have any advice/tips for me, I would very much appreciate it, as I'm all out of ideas.

    TIA :thumbup:

    Amy
     
  2. Fleur

    Fleur Vassal to Lilly and Ludo

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  3. amynorange1

    amynorange1 PetForums Newbie

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    Thank you Fluer, I will definitely check that book out! I have got a long line and tried using it with him, the only problem was, he didnt move anywhere with it on! Ha! Think maybe it was because he knew he was on lead still and so he is trained to walk nicely on lead and stay by my side…However he was lay down at the time and the amount of motivation it takes with him sometimes is ridiculous! I have never known a dog (EVER) in my life to be so hard to motivate! But maybe I shall give him another try with it. Again I've tried not feeding him his breakfast and then take him out, however like I said he is so unmotivated even with really tasty food (corned beef with is his fave, chicken, sausage) in place of breakfast when I'm out that he just doesn't eat it!
     
  4. Sarah1983

    Sarah1983 PetForums VIP

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    As well as the advice given by Fleur look into the Premack Principle.
     
  5. Canine K9

    Canine K9 Bailey Woof

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    I feel your pain! My terrier mix is a bit like that. With smells my dog doesn`t track them he just goes and sniffs it. I`ve been using a flexi lead most of his life and when he is finished recall him, then gradually building it up so when he is in the smell recall. We aren`t quite there yet though. Other dogs again we have been visiting dog frequent places with him on his flexi and building up the distance between him and the dog. If he doesn`t recall then I take some distance off and work it back up. Thats going really well. I give food rewards but it doesn`t beat dogs or smells! Try acting like an idiot too. I`ve thrown myself onto my back (when nobody was around :eek:) made daft noises, run off and make him chase me, pretended I`d found something in the grass etc. Good luck

    ETA: Mine goes off now unless another dog is around. His newest trick is to stand there watching me walk away so I`ll recall him and he`ll get a treat. So with enough patience it can be done :)
     
  6. smokeybear

    smokeybear PetForums VIP

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    Why can’t I get a reliable recall?

    ‘Come’ is no harder to train than any other behaviour but in real life it has a huge number of criteria that have to be raised one at a time in order to guarantee success.

    Often when puppies are brought home to their new owners this is the first time they have ever been separated from their dam and siblings and so they naturally attach themselves to their new family by following them about everywhere. Owners find this quite attractive and wrongly assume that this trait will continue into adolescence/adulthood, whatever the circumstances. A dangerous trap to fall into…

    At some point in time, usually from around 6 – 10 months, depending on the individual, “Velcro” dog will morph into “Bog off” dog (this is especially true of a breed that has been developed to exhibit a high degree of initiative). This is the time when owners suddenly realize that their dog will not recall when it sees another dog/person etc. Not only is this inconvenient but potentially dangerous as the dog could be at risk of injury from a car/train/another dog etc.

    How and when do I start with a puppy?

    My advice is to prepare for this inevitability from the day you take your puppy home. If you are lucky the breeder will have started this process whilst still in the nest by conditioning the puppies to a whistle blown immediately before putting the food bowl down during weaning.

    Dogs learn by cause and effect ie sound of whistle = food. If you, the new owner, continue this from the moment your puppy arrives you will lay down strong foundations for the future.

    By using the whistle in association with meals/food you need to establish the following criteria:

    • Come from across the room.
    • Come from out of sight
    • Come no matter who calls
    • Come even if you are busy doing something else
    • Come even if you are asleep.
    • Come even if you are playing with something/someone else
    • Come even if you are eating

    Once this goal has been realized in the house, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the garden.

    Once this goal has been realized in the garden, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the park/field etc.

    To train this, or any other behaviour:

    1. Make it easy for the dog to get it right
    2. Provide sufficient reward

    Do not expect a dog to come away from distractions in the park until you have trained it to come to you in the park when no diversions are around. Be realistic and manage your expectations; your sphere of influence/control over your dog may be only 20m to begin with, therefore do not hazard a guess that the dog, at this level of training, will successfully recall from 50m or more away. Distance, like every other criterion, must be built up over time.

    Some simple rules to follow when training the recall:

    • Whistle/signal/call only once (why train the dog to deliberately ignore your first command?)
    • Do not reinforce slow responses for the dog coming eventually after it has cocked its leg, sniffed the tree etc (you get what you train!)
    • If you know that the dog will not come back to you in a certain situation, go and get him rather than risk teaching him that he can ignore you. (If you have followed the programme correctly you will never put your dog in a position to fail).
    • Practise recalling the dog, putting him on the lead for a few seconds, reinforce with food/toy etc and immediately release the dog. Do this several times during a walk etc so that the dog does not associate a recall with going on the lead and ending the walk or being put on the lead with the cessation of fun.
    • Eventually, when the behaviour is very strong, alternate rewards ie verbal praise, physical praise, food, toy and also vary the “value” of the rewards, sometimes a plain piece of biscuit, sometimes a piece of cooked liver etc so that you become a walking slot machine (and we all know how addictive gambling can be)!

    In my experience recall training should be consistent and relentless for the first two years of a dog’s life before it can be considered truly dependable. You should look on it as a series of incremental steps, rather than a single simple behaviour, and something that will require lifelong maintenance.

    What about an older or rescue dog?

    Follow the same programme as outlined above however for recalcitrant dogs that have received little or no training, I would recommend dispensing with the food bowl and feeding a dog only during recalls to establish a strong behaviour quickly.

    Your training should be over several sessions a day, which means you can avoid the risk of bloat. It is essential that the dog learns that there will be consequences for failure as well as success.

    Divide the day’s food ration up into small bags (between10 – 30), if the dog recalls first time, it gets food, if it does not, you can make a big show of saying “too bad” and disposing of that portion of food (either throw it away or put aside for the next day).

    Again, raise the criteria slowly as outlined in puppy training.

    Hunger is very motivating!

    For those of you who believe it unfair/unhealthy to deprive a dog of its full daily ration, not having a reliable recall is potentially life threatening for the dog ……………

    How do I stop my dog chasing joggers/cyclists/skateboarders/rabbits/deer?

    Chasing something that is moving is a management issue. Do not put your dog in a position where it can make a mistake. Again you need to start training from a pup but if you have already allowed your dog to learn and practise this behaviour you may need to rely on a trailing line until your dog is desensitised to these distractions and knows that listening to you results in a great reinforcement. Chasing is a behaviour much better never learned as it is naturally reinforcing to the dog, which makes it hard for you to offer a better reinforcement. If you want to have a bombproof recall while your dog is running away from you then use the following approach:

    Your goal is to train so that your dog is totally used to running away from you at top speed, and then turning on a sixpence to run toward you when you give the recall cue.

    You need to set up the training situation so that you have total control over the triggers. For this you will need to gain the co-operation of a helper. If you have a toy crazy dog you can practice this exercise by throwing a toy away from the dog towards someone standing 30 or 40 feet away. At the instant the toy is thrown, recall your dog! If the dog turns toward you, back up several steps quickly, creating even more distance between the you and the toy and then throw another toy in the opposite direction (same value as one thrown)..

    If the dog ignores you and continues toward the thrown object, your “helper” simply picks the ball up and ignores dog. When dog eventually returns (which it will because it’s getting no reinforcement from anyone or anything), praise only. Pretty soon the dog will start to respond to a recall off a thrown toy. You will need to mix in occasions the toy is thrown and the dog is allowed to get it ie you do NOT recall if you want to make sure it does not lose enthusiasm for retrieving.

    For the food obsessed dog, you can get your helper to wave a food bowl with something the dog loves in it and then recall the dog as soon as you let it go to run towards the food; again if the dog ignores you and continues to the food, your helper simply ensures the dog cannot access the food and start again. (It is extremely important that the helper does not use your dog’s name to call it for obvious reasons).

    Gradually increase the difficulty of the recall by letting the dog get closer and closer to the toy/food. Praise the moment the dog turns away from the toy/food in the early stages of training. Don't wait until the dog returns to you; the dog must have instant feedback.

    Once the dog is fluent at switching directions in the middle of a chase, try setting up the situation so that it is more like real life. Have someone ride a bike/run/skate past. (It is unrealistic to factor in deer/rabbits however if your training is thorough the dog will eventually be conditioned to return to you whatever the temptation in most contexts).

    Until your training gets to this level, don't let the dog off-lead in a situation in which you don't have control over the chase triggers. Don't set the dog up to fail, and don't allow it to rehearse the problem behaviour. Remember, every time a dog is able to practise an undesirable behaviour it will get better at it!

    Most people do not play with toys correctly and therefore the dog is not interested in them or, if it gets them, fails to bring it back to the owner.

    Play the two ball game, once you have a dog ball crazy. Have two balls the same, throw one to the left, when the dog gets it, call him like crazy waving the next ball; as he comes back throw the other ball to the right and keep going left right so that YOU are the centre of the game and the dog gets conditioned to return to you for the toy. Once this behaviour is established you can then introduce the cues for out and then make control part of the game ie the game is contingent on the dog sitting and then progress to a sequence of behaviours.
     
  7. smokeybear

    smokeybear PetForums VIP

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    Courses

    How to Change Predatory Chase Behaviour in Dogs with David Ryan

    Saturday 5th July 2014
    DOGS TRUST
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    Date: 24 – 27 May 2014
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    Contact Dawn Cox at dawncox76@yahoo.co.uk

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    Line Training for Dogs
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    Chase! Managing Your Dog's Predatory Instincts
    By Clarissa Von Reinhardt

    Stop! How to control predatory Chasing in Dogs
    by David Ryan

    Teach your Dog to Come When Called
    By Erica Peachey

    Teach your Dog to Come when Called
    By Katie Buvala

    Training your Dog to Come When Called
    By John Rogerson

    The Dog Vinci Code
    By John Rogerson

    Total Recall
    By Pippa Mattinson


    DVDs

    Line Training for Dogs
    By Monika Gutman

    Really Reliable Recall
    By Leslie Nelson

    Training the Recall
    By Michael Ellis

    Training the Whistle Recall
    By Pamela Dennison

    Your clever dog: Getting your dog to come when called
    By Sarah Whitehead


    Does your dog whizz back to you as soon as you call his name?

    Can you call him to you even when there are other dogs or distractions? Teaching your dog to come to you when you call is the cornerstone of training and the gateway to allowing him more freedom in the park.

    If your dog has selective deafness, ignores you in the garden or the park, or would rather play with other dogs than come when you call, this specially designed training session is for you.

    Ideal for starting out with puppies or rehomed dogs, and also for dogs that ignore you or are slow to come when called, despite previous training.

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    • Using your voice to call versus using a whistle
    • What to do if you call and your dog doesn’t come to you
    The pack contains: A clicker, long line (worth £10), training manual, instructional DVD: 55 mins approx running time including Bonus trick, Bonus Training Session, Intro to Clicker Training, Q & A with Sarah


    Dogtrain.co.uk


    Website articles:

    How to use a long line properly here (under information to download)

    www.dogspsyche.co.uk

    http://www.apdt.co.uk/content/files/training-tips/RECALL.pdf

    http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/reliable_recall.pdf

    Deposits into the Perfect Recall Account

    List of Reinforcers

    http://www.clickerdogs.com/distracti...yourrecall.htm

    http://susangarrettdogagility.com/20...call-collapse/

    How to Create a Motivating Toy

    http://www.cleverdogcompany.com/tl_f...e recall.pdf

    Teaching Come | Ahimsa Dog Blog

    http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-...y-dog-chasing/

    Train a

    http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/te..._to_you_on_cue

    http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/be...me-when-called

    The First Steps to Teaching a Reliable Recall: Kathy Sdao - Bright Spot Dog Training

    More on the Reliable Recall: Kathy Sdao - Bright Spot Dog Training

    Lesson 6
     
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