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Need advice please - first litter

Discussion in 'Dog Breeding' started by beesley121, Apr 4, 2011.


  1. beesley121

    beesley121 PetForums Junior

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    Hi guys,

    I have a clumber spaniel that is now 7 weeks pregnant. I have left all this a bit late but I was'nt sure she was pregnant until yesterday (she has now started lactating)

    anyway, Ive read loads on the whelping process, what I am worried about is where Im going to have all these pups running around. I dont particulary have a big house. My dog is in my kitchen at the minute. Ithink im going to have to make a whelping box that fits under my kitchen table to help save room. What do you recommend would be the minimum or average size whelping box that I should make???

    Ive been told that Im best housing my dog outside with her pups. my dog was kennelled as she is a working dog, but I brought her in when I bred her. When I bought her as a pup, she was housed outside in a kind of whelping box with a roof and a run for the pups. do you think I should do the same. I will obviously put a heat lamp in there but Im just a bit worried about it all.

    any advice greatly apprciated.

    PS. does anyone know a vet in the cheshire region that will dock tails and any idea on price. thanx
     
  2. kaisa624

    kaisa624 PetForums VIP

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    What did you mate her with?

    How could you not know she was pregnant? You not scan her or something?

    Most vets won't dock tails, unless the dogs are going for working owners due to the law.

    Also, why breed her if you don't have the space for her and pups... madness!!
     
  3. Nonnie

    Nonnie PetForums VIP

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    FFS, nice helpful replies as always. Maybe some of you need to learn how to read previous posts. Not hard, there's only 7.

    Op, i know next to nothing about breeding, but i suggest you get your whelping box sorted ASAP and let her get used to it. You will need to watch her 24/7 leading up to the birth, and for 6-8 weeks after the pups are born.

    I noticed you said you contacted the Clumber club, so maybe see if they have a breeder who could possibly mentor you throughout the process.

    Im assuming you have got her on a good quality food now? I think a lot of people change to a puppy food a few weeks beforehand.

    I dont believe in rearing pups in a kennel environment, working dogs or not, but thats a personal choice. you need to understand the potential risks though, and with a breed as rare as the Clumber, it might not be worth it.
     
  4. You should not have bred if you didnt have the space. Clumbers are not small dogs and litter sizes can vary.

    So if the whelping box is going to be under the kitchen table will that mean you will be sleeping in the kitchen in order to keep an eye on the pups?

    Please do not put the pups outside. Pups should be raised in the home working or not.
     
  5. pearltheplank

    pearltheplank PetForums VIP

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    Yes but it is done now and the OP obviously needs help
     
  6. holly2009

    holly2009 Guest

    Jings, I'm planning our first litter 1 year ahead, im still researching & planning! Pedigrees, health tests, registrations, reading books, watching utube welping vids, listing items I need for my welping kit, pups welped in the dinning room, piecful, warm, next to kitchen for sink etc, can fit a sofa bed in, then when settled moved to the the familyroom with a puppy pen, outdoor run for nice days when the pups are old enough! Puppy packs, questions to ask potential buyers, I could go on :eek:

    It wasnt even an accidental mating youve had, it was planned so you 'must' have thought about all these things!

    Im not sure what size box you would need for a Clumber quite big I should think! If you read 'the book of the bitch' it has diagrams etc on how to make your own with cardboard boxes! Very good book!
    I'd probably try and get a cheap puppy pen aswell to keep them safe in once
    they get moving about!
    I'd definitely keep them in your home, they need socialising, get use to people & household noises plus you need to be with
    them 24/7
    Should help with info on docking
    http://www.basc.org.uk/en/departments/gundogs/tail-docking/england.cfm

    Good luck & I hope everything goes well for you!
     
  7. Pointermum

    Pointermum PetForums VIP

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    Book of the Bitch: Amazon.co.uk: J.M. Evans, Kay White: Books is a must read, i would get is asap and read it. I would keep pups indoors as it would be easier to maintain a constant temperature. You will need to have a vet on stand-by should anything go wrong and the bitch might need a C-section which can be around £1000 out of hours.
     
  8. casandra

    casandra PetForums VIP

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    OP, tail docking is now illegal in the UK unless you have a license ((to own guns, I believe, therefore (not) proving that you actually do work your dogs)). Even so, tails need to be done at around 3 days of age.

    Under the table is a good place for a whelping box if you put the table up against a wall and create a quiet/secluded space for your bitch. In a pinch you can use a kiddie pool, but preferably a sanded wood purpose built whelping box with planks along the edges replacing pig rails to prevent pups from getting stuck or crushed.

    You will need a large supply of newspaper, ask neighbours and friends/family to start saving up for you. You can set up beforehand to make after whelping easier for you by putting a layer of tarpauline covered in a layer of newspaper down in the whelping box, then another layer of tarpauline/newspaper, etc etc. You end up with a very easy clean-up system, where you just have to remove the top layer of mess, and there's a fresh one beneath for you.

    You will need loads of clean towels for the whelping process and you should sleep with the babies for the first weeks of their lives so you can make sure they are getting fed and toileted properly. Many first time mums aren't the best and will leave toileting and cleaning up after newborn pups for the humans to take care of.

    She should be on a high quality puppy food now, whatever you plan to use to wean the puppies onto, preferably. Don't put the puppies outside unless they are going to be heavily supervised and the outside time should only be used to teach them to toilet and also for socialization. You can place them in a puppy pen filled with toys and interesting objects for them to explore and play with.

    Keep the pups indoors as many people do keep their working dogs indoors as family pets too. These pets need to be used to all household noises such as hoovers, washing machines, televisions, etc etc.
     
    #8 casandra, Apr 4, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2011
  9. beesley121

    beesley121 PetForums Junior

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    first and foremost I would like to thank nonnie! Seems to be the first person out the first 4 replies that had something constructive to say. And like another poster said, I have only 7 previous posts so read them.

    Now I will explain because already Im disliking this forum. I am a member of other non canine forums and I thought the point of forums were to help people out and offer advice. seems some people on here are ready to stick the knife in before gaining the facts.

    But here are the facts.

    I have a clumber spaniel from working stock. I am a shooting man (go on who's goin to slag me off cos of that now?) My clumber was from a very good background with field trail winners on both sides of her pedigree. I never ever intended to breed from her and at goin on 5 years old, I thought she was too old. As she is a very good gundog, I began thinking that It would be nice to have another dog or 2 that I could begin to train and also to keep her company. After speaking with the president of the working clumber spaniel society I was informed that there should be no reason I shouldnt be able to breed from her. She told me that she herself had just bred from a maiden bitch at 7 and had no problems and was a great mum.

    A week later, my bitch came into season, it was then I had to decide for definate if I wanted to breed from her. This would be her first and last time. After speaking to many people from the society and breeders of clumbers, I made the decison to try to have her mated, still unsure as wether she would actually stand for the dog. I found a proven working stud dog with field trail wins in his and his mother and fathers pedigree and In my opinon was a good match. I asked the owner of the stud dog all the same questions and was told that there was no major problems why I cant breed from her. I took her down to somerset, a 4.5 hour drive for me, left my bitch there for a week to strike courtship. She stood for him on the 3rd day, the stud dog owner said that only 1 tie had occured as she was reluctent to stand for him again as he thought he may have hurt her (said it was like a 40year old woman loosing her virginity) he said he was not into 'making' dogs mate but would rather let them choose if they want to or not. I picked her up and he told me because of her age and because they only tied once, it was 50/50 as to wether she would take or not.

    I looked everywhere on the internet for advice. I have never bred a bitch before and would never do it to make money from her (im sure there are some money makers on here). I dont know anyone that has bred a dog so Im on my own, hence why I joined this forum.

    For the last 6 weeks, I have been looking for signs that she is pregnant, I have been giving her the very best food and really looking after her (I do that anyway). She is normally kennelled but I brought her in when I had her mated. In the 6 weeks, she had gone slightly bigger, but becacuse I was feeding her slightly more, its is a high protein diet and Ive not been letting her run as much due to fear of her hurting herself, i thought this was the cause.

    Apart from giving her the best diet, and trying to look after her more by keeping her in the house, I did not want to buy or do anything else until I got confirmation that she is indeed pregnant.

    Its now 7 weeks and almost overnight her body shape has changed, her nipples are much bigger than usual and I even seen a bit of milk on one of them. Now I know she is definately pregnant.

    Now I have the confirmation, I will now do everything I have to do, no exspence spared. My dog means everything to me.

    I will have missed many things out here, but I am annoyed that people are so quick to jump to conclusions. In in my opinion have done all I can up to this point, yes I could have taken her to the vets but from advice from others, I was told it was a waste of time and money unless I felt that something was not right. My dog has always been fit and healthy because of her lifestyle and never need that attention of a vet. I hope this continues

    now does anyone want help me out and ofer some constuctive advice?? or should I move on.............
     
    #9 beesley121, Apr 4, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2011
  10. Because you have not had her scanned there is no way of knowing if its a false pregnancy or not. However this is what I would do if I was in your position.

    Buy "book of the bitch" and read it from cover to cover. It will give you loads of information and give you a list of items you need.

    Measure your bitch and buy the right sized whelping box with rails/ledge to prevent your bitch laying on the pups.

    Buy in plenty of puppy food.

    Buy in puppy milk and bottles incase there are problems with mum.

    Buy in some Dopram V I believe hyperdrug have some in at the moment thats sell by date is July.....at the moment Dopram is hard to come by so I would get onto that right away.

    Dopram V is used to help pups breath when born.

    I would also strongly suggest you get your accounts in order and make sure you have at least £2000 ready incase your bitch needs a C section and there are other problems.

    Get an inflatable bed...for the kitchen because you need to be there incase something goes wrong.

    Pick up some heat lamps or heat pads.

    And get your bitch used to being in the whelping box before she has the pups.

    Get the number of your local 24 hour vet and stick it on your fridge as that number may well be needed.
    Also try to find a mentor in the breed who lives close by incase you need some help.

    Good luck.
     
  11. kaisa624

    kaisa624 PetForums VIP

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    I'd get her scanned so you can see how many pups she may be expecting, even though it isn't amazingly accurate.

    Get hold of whelping supplies etcetc. But def raise them in the house...
     
  12. babycham2002

    babycham2002 PetForums VIP

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    I think this thread gives a nice clear day to day guide so you can catch up on what you may have missed
    http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/98252-steps-take-after-mating-your-bitch.html
    Book of the bitch as advised by the others
    I would move the table into another room and just clear some space anyway you can, if it has to come apart and pile in your bedroom for 10 weeks so be it

    I would urge you to get a scan as my bitch had a very convincing phantom pregnancy last season.
     
  13. Pointermum

    Pointermum PetForums VIP

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    I've never breed dogs but I'm not sure if it's too late or not to get her scanned to see how many pups she may be having. If she's not got very large she may only have a singleton pup which can have it's own complications. I believe sheep scanners are cheaper and more accurate. There are a lot of stickys at the top of the breeding section, so stick the kettle on a make a cuppa and get stuck into them :lol: As it's been said a few times now The book of the bitch is a must read and only around £6 from amazon ;) I wish you and your girl luck. Let us know how you get on. There are a few breeders on here who have saved pup's lives from there great advice during whelping, so don't right the forum off so quickly, people on here are passionate about responsible breeding ;)
     
  14. reddogs

    reddogs PetForums Senior

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    People can be very helpful - some can condemn hey ho that is life

    Anyway glad you posted this because it actually reminded me to sort out a disposable whelping box for my girl this week - was going to anyway but was on the back burner and today was the day so thank you for reminding me, just got to order it now (we've got just over 10 days until due date).

    Since you, I guess, are not intending to do this again you can get some very nice disposable whelping boxes, if you google then there are a few companies that supply them - the suggested size on one of those is 48x48 inches for a clumber. Also if you google whelping kit those come up and you can decide if you want to buy one or use the list to get the things you think you will need.

    Good luck with it all, we enjoyed our last litter but it can be hard work especially once the little blighters start to grow
     
  15. beesley121

    beesley121 PetForums Junior

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    There is alot more to this than the few lines Ive written above. If I were to mention everything, I would be here forever. but to straighten this up, I had previously thought about breeding her, due to work commitments and her not having regular seasons, this season caught me a bit off guard. I just dont understand what is your problem. pups are born stray every single day, i decide to mate her, find a excellent stud dog, stud dog owner doesnt force them or cage them up to force them to breed. I look after her, feed her well. yes never bought anything as I didnt want to waste my money as I didnt know for definate she was pregnant. Im not in it for the money like others on here, yes you know who you are, its easy to pretend to be a concerned breeder of a litter or 2 but really your breeding dogs for money. Ive been to dog breeders houses in the past as my sister wanted a dog, only to see how scruffy there houses acually are due to the fact they think its easy money breeding dogs. now I m having a rant but its at the people who say stupid things. If I didnt care, I wouldnt be here

    Anyway, that over, I want to thank the people that have offered more helpful advice and Im onto it as we speak, book has been ordered, and im also in the process of ordering from hyper drug whilst following some of the tutorials on here. I not sure if I should order welpi or lactol! my bitch was fed lactol when I got her. Any advice? also, was going to order the 10% solution of panacur to give my bitch but reading a few things on the internet said it may cause mummified pups. again, any advice. my bitch was wormed prior to mating.
     
  16. reddogs

    reddogs PetForums Senior

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    if your bitch has already been wormed regularly then you should be OK, panacur should be given from day 40

    I don't know the protocol if you don't follow that but I am sure someone will pop up who does

    I used welpi when I was giving it to the pups, gonna use something else this time - can't remember its name atm, but you wont need it yet, they will feed off the mum for a couple of weeks, if you feel the need to get something just in case then get a small tin as a 'just in case'
     
  17. I have given my advice to you.

    My problem is that just because there are pups born every day doesnt mean that its ever right to just suddenly mate your bitch without planning.

    Your bitch is nearly 5 I believe you said. That's 5 years you could have spent re-searching health conditions, whelping information and then going forward with it.

    Because you went into it without being prepared you have not scanned. She could be having a false pregnancy.

    Has she been PDP1 tested? As I know you had said previously she had been hip scored.

    I am not having a go but I fail to see how anyone can go into dog breeding without doing the re-search first. :confused:

    What's done's done.....and everyone has to start somewhere I get that but the fact that you dont know much about breeding means that your bitch could be in danger when she does whelp. (I/E: you not knowing how long a bitch should be in labor before needing a c-section).

    Its not to late to do your re-search but I would never tell anyone to get their dog pregnant then do the re-search.

    You are worried about the space you can provide for the pups. Have you decided were the pups will be raised? (inside or out).

    Again I am not having a go but you wanted to know what my problem is.

    Also lactol is a good option.
     
  18. Tanya1989

    Tanya1989 PetForums VIP

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    Ok,
    Firstly you should be worming the bitch with Panacur 10% daily from now until 2 days after she whelps. You can get panacur from manorpharmacy, lloyds pharmacy, hyperdrug.co.uk or most vets (but it is quite expensive from a vet).

    Also, order a drug called Dopram V from hyperdrug.co.uk (order fast NOW, it is going out of stock very quickly as there has been a shortage) It is a breathing stimulant for newborn puppies.

    The puppies need to be born in the house. The have no ability to control their body temperature until 2 weeks old and WILL die if born in a kennel or anywhere draughty. Kitchens are not recommended for this reason also. Draughts will kill puppies.

    What whelping box are you using? I recommend buying one of these: Pen and the whelping bars Bars and 2 extra panels Panels to add to make the pen bigger as they grow.
    Line the bottom 1ft of the pen with thin plywood to stop the puppies getting their feet through the bars. The whelping box needs lining with newspaper and VET BED. Nothing else is suitable as when wet the vet bed immediately takes the water away from the puppies to stop them getting chilled, a duvet or blanket does not do this.

    I don't recommend a heat lamp as they are too hot for mum, I recommend a heat mat, more specifically The second one down on this page as mum doesn't have to have the heat from this, but the puppies still get the benefit.

    Check my website below for tons of further information. Also, important to mention that she should not be left unattended from 56 days at all. Responsible people will sleep downstairs from day 56 until at least 3 weeks after they are born to prevent mums squashing them. This is particularly important with Clumbers as they are very clumsy mums.... and I mean VERY clumsy. TBH they are one of the most difficult breeds to whelp, often lie on puppies killing them and quite often reject puppies :(.

    At a bare minimum your whelping kit should include:
    • Dopram V
    • Towels
    • whelpi
    • feeding kit
    • 2 feeding tubes (one to be kept for feeding, one to help free stuck puppies
    • obstetric gel or KY jelly
    • milton sterilizing
    • alcohol hand gel
    • Some form of identifying puppies (marker pens/ collars etc)
    But for a more comprehensive list check out Devil Dogz Sticky in the breeding section.

    I'll PM you my mobile number. Ring at anytime day or night if problems occur or if you are unsure of whats happening. Vets are unreliable with their advice, generally, I am not ;)

    I'll add more to this when I get a few minutes
     
    Pointermum likes this.
  19. Pointermum

    Pointermum PetForums VIP

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    please take Tanya's advice and mobile number she's the doggy midwife ;)
     
  20. Tanya1989

    Tanya1989 PetForums VIP

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    I have deleted a few posts. If you cannot offer constructive advice please do not post. The bitch needs our help and although not everyone will agree on the ethics surrounding breeding practises, it is too late to safely abort now, so we need to pull together and help the OP :)
     
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